Prop 8 passed....can we blame this on religion?

[Evoman]

It's a common theme in this forum, as well as many places where religion is discussed, that religion should not be blamed for things like wars, slavery, etc. The common argument is that even without religion, we would have the same sort of world....people would still have fought the same wars, and religion isn't really to blame because it's mostly just a veil for other, more earthly reasons for wars.

How does homophobia, and bullshit like prop 8 fit into that?

It seems to me that religion can be directly blamed as a reason for voting yes on proposition 8.

What other reason is there to TAKE AWAY rights that have already been given. There are no power advantages. There are no resource advantages. There are non-religios reason for the hatred of gay people, and the taking away of their rights.

I am angry. ANGRY at the fucking bullshit that religion makes people do. I fail to see why I shouldn't be mad at christianity. At mormonism. At religion. All the supposed "good" religion does is meaningless to me when it also is directly responsible for the opression of a segment of the population. Especially after I always hear that "most" religious people are not fundie assholes. Well...things look different from this side of the fence....maybe most of the christians in a liberal place like california ARE fundie assholes.

I am not angry at all religious people....I am sure that most of you on this forum did the right thing. On the other hand, I'm sure that some of you did not. What I want to do, for the sake of fairness, is to allow others a chance to convince me that I am wrong somehow. So...am I wrong?

[lapfog_1]

1. I think this is an age thing

and I'm one of the over 50 crowd. Sadly, the over 50 generations voted heavily in favor of this. The under 30 voted heavily against it. I may not live to see this overturned, but it will be, it might take 20 years or more, but it will be.

[cosmik debris]

3. Oh, c'mon.

The Mormon Church poured millions of dollars and thousands of man-hours into that campaign--and you say it is an age thing?

This is a clear cut case of religion trumping human rights.

I'm neither religious nor gay, but I am pissed off that religion is used and excused for oppressing other people.

[DeSwiss]

12. You've got that right!

Hell yes religion in general and the Mormons in particular bears MOST of the blame for this atrocious amendment. And ditto for me: "I'm neither religious nor gay, but I am pissed off that religion is used and excused for oppressing other people."

I'm still hoping that the lawsuits filed will overturn it somehow. But there is NO question who is at fault here. NONE.

- Nuff said.

[Chovexani]

14. Tax the motherfuckers into the ground

The LDS church is mafia plain and simple

[frylock]

5. most of the yes on 8 people i saw standing on street corners were women under 30

[lapfog_1]

7. I was basing my remarks on the exit poll data. - n/t

[Ernesto]

2. It aint gonna happen, but....

churches should be paying the price for this bullshit. There is no reason that these overtly political organizations should be tax exempt.

[Goblinmonger]

4. Yes, we can.

This is why I have said many times that if you don't believe in what the Catholic Church is saying from the top, then get the fuck out. Stop giving them your money and your body count as a power leverage tool. Your individual priest might be cool enough, but the hierarchy will use your money for evil just like they did in California and Florida. Just stop giving them the damn tools for power.

[jonnyblitz]

6. I blame it on religion. religion is a POX on humanity. nt

[TZ]

8. Partially..but I agree with someone that its a age thing as well

Look civil rights take time..President Elect Obama is a product of 40 years of very hard work..If you break down the numbers, you will most likely see that he got more of the younger votes.
Although the bible bigotry is of course a big cause, I think GLBT rights have made startling progress in the last 15 years. I am old enough to remember a prime time show getting pulled and retooled at even the insinuation of a gay character..Now they are on TV. These things take time..I think we have to wait for some of the older bigots to die off and work on educating people better.
We will get there but its going to take time

[TechBear_Seattle]

9. How can we NOT blame religion?

The Mormon Church was the principle financial backer for Yes on h8, and congregants of every Mormon and Christian church throughout the state were ORDERED to vote Yes on h8 on pain of eternal damnation.

[Boojatta]

10. If there's no distinction between religions and religious institutions...

then was the creation of Protestant churches of no historical significance? Would the world be essentially the same if the only Christian church were the Roman Catholic Church?

[Goblinmonger]

16. That Martin Luther

he was a real Jew-boiling treat.

[Boojatta]

21. How did the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) treat Arab pagans?

Weren't the options convert or die? Nevertheless, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) seems to have had some impact on world history and there also seem to be some important sectarian divisions in the Islamic world, allegations by the Bush administration about absence of civil war in Iraq and about connections between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein to the contrary notwithstanding.

Anyway, even if Martin Luther had been a mass murderer, would that fact prevent us from distinguishing between a religion and a religious institution?

[NAO]

11. Yes. 100%. How many secular/rationals do you know who wanted it?

The support for Prop 8 and the AZ and FL "family protection" measures was 100% from the religious.

Some secular people believe in right wing economic policy, or right wing foreign policy, but I don't think any person who is not under the influence of religious superstition is anti-gay.

[elshiva]

13. I am so tired of religion being used as something to oppress

people. I am thankful that Obama won, but this really makes me mad. :grr:

[Azooz]

15. Max Blumenthal: Who Is The Mystery Man Behind Prop 8?

>>So...am I wrong?

Think back to the days before the 80s when all "religious people" had was the MSM- now they have the internet, religious forums and blogs - so talk, give it time, and mind who you blame:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/who-is-the-mystery-man-be_b_140801.html

[Igel]

17. Religion, culture, values, attitudes.

Pick your term of art.

Whites mostly voted against the ban. Most fundie groups, as well as groups like Mormons, are mostly white. So the group being targeted most explicitly went something like 53% in the direction you'd want them to go. Odd.

Although, to be sure, had whites voted 57% or more against it the ban would have failed.

Something like 70% of blacks, and over 50% of Latinos, voted for the ban; had the black community not come out for Obama so strongly, the ban probably would have failed. Had the Latino vote been substantially smaller, the ban probably would have failed. Had conservative Xians not voted for it, the ban probably would have failed.

Are most blacks fundies? Are most Latinos conservative Xians? Perhaps in some sense, but then we're playing semantic games to make sure that our argument holds, at least on paper, while changing the actual meaning of the argument. Keep in mind that even most "conservative Xians" don't go to church; their religion is their own, marginally organized at best. It's easy to pick out a group or two to scapegoat. That doesn't mean that the problem isn't much more widely spread, just that only one group is going to be the target of ire (perhaps because nobody wants to target the other groups). Remember that the term 'scapegoat' originally meant, and still has the meaning of, a goat on which all the sins of the people were to be placed, metaphorically, and which was then driven out from among the people; the problem behavior wasn't altered, and was still widespread.

[Evoman]

19. I'm blaming religion, not just the most fundamentalist.

The fact of the matter is, I personally know some "progressive" christians, not unlike those I've met on DU, who are not fundamentalists and who still have bullshit attitudes towards gay people and gay marriage.

I don't know about black people, but I know for a fact that most latinos are religious. Stupidly religious. And not necessarily in a fundamentalist way, but certainly in a socially conservative sort of way.

So it does come down to religion. That's the common denominator among every asshole who voted for the thing, be they white, latino, or black. Race is a red herring.

[cosmik debris]

22. "playing semantic games to make sure that our argument holds..."

No matter what game you play, it is absurd to discount the overwhelming influence of religion on that campaign.

You are the second person in this thread to dissect the vote by demographic statistics. But the issue is not WHO voted for it, but WHY they voted for it. If their reason was not religion, what could it have been? I'd like to see a statistical breakdown of that.

[Meshuga]

18. You can certainly blame the religious values that drove the...

...people to vote for prop 8.

[Evoman]

20. I'm fucking sick of it, Mr. Wiggles.

I'm so tired of the religious bullshit. I'm tired of this mind sickness that causes people to have their asshole religious "values" mixed with the law and policy of a secular country.

[Meshuga]

23. Very frustrating, indeed.

If government is to provide privileges to those who choose to become life partners and raise a family then it must not exclude any group from this privilege. Unless discrimination is acceptable in our society which obviously appears to be the case. This is fucking embarrassing.