I'm Curious: Do We Have Any Mormon Members Of DU? If You're One, Please Check In!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

If you're a Mormon, I'm just curious about how you feel lately about all the outright hateful bigotry shown here towards you lately. I'm sorry that you have to hear such bigoted ignorance thrown at you and I can only imagine how cornered and unwelcome here it makes you feel. No one on this site should have to put up with bigotry thrown at them, and I'm sorry that you have to go through it. It is unacceptable and also disgusting that there are some posts that are outright bigotry, and that you have to be the recipients of it. I just couldn't help wondering if we have any mormons here, and how the sheer stupidity and ignorance being thrown at you makes you feel. For all I know there aren't any here, which of course doesn't excuse the bigotry and ignorance whatsoever.

If you're a mormon, I'm curious how this all has made you feel. At the least, since right now with all the ignorant bigotry being thrown around at you lately it may make you a bit shy of stating so publicly, please vote in the poll and let us know you're here.

[BlueCollar]

1. not a mormon

but I dated one for awhile...

She left the Church as had most of her family.

[stray cat]

2. It seems to be human nature to label people as a THEM and as an ENEMY

without even knowing any individuals. Once you meet a THEM they are seldom as easy to demonize unless you just happen to meet a jerk who solidifies your bias or bigotry.

[Momgonepostal]

3. I'm LDS, from California, and I have some thoughts on this...

but I've been toodling around too long on teh internets today and need to get into the shower. I'll try to come back this afternoon.

My short answer is I can understand why people are so upset about the church and Prop 8. I do not understand the church's backing of prop 8. It seems to me, if you don't want gay marriage, don't get one.

More later...

p.s. I'll let you know if we have any picketers at church today.

[Momgonepostal]

37. I'm responding to my own post...

I have no idea if anyone will see this or if anyone cares. Bummer about getting the topic moved/buried in the religion forum.

I can understand the anger toward the church. This has been a hot topic in my own family, since among my siblings we have two very practicing Mormons and one very out gay man, whose "wedding" I attended several years ago, back before it was legal. I love my brother and respect his right to marry the person of his choice. I need to call him, but the sad fact is, I'm embarrassed.

Again, I understand the anger and luckily for me, I don't offend easily. I do wish everyone understood that all Mormons are not out to take away your rights. I don't feel like I'm the enemy here, and can tell you there are many other members of the church like me.

As time passes, I think more and more that maybe the answer is the just get the government out of the marriage business. I would have no problem having a civil union, and then choosing a church wedding, that was legal only in the eyes of God. That's the way it was done when I lived in Italy. LDS weddings were not legal, so people married civilly then had their marriage solemnized in the LDS temple.

I was sad when Prop. 8 passed, but am reassured by the fact that this issue will not go away. When I think about the fact that 48 percent of Californians think gay marriage should be legal, I realize that a long way we have come in my lifetime. If Prop. 8 had been even as recently as the 80's, it would have won in a landslide.

[yardwork]

71. As a lesbian, I urge you to call your brother. He's probably wondering what you think.

I appreciate your post.

As for the civil union/marriage question - it's already that way in the U.S. for straight people. The government calls it marriage, though, so there's no reason not to call it marriage for gay people. The government has no say in whether or not people have a religious wedding. In other words, the government is already "out of the marriage business," except insofar as anti-gay discrimination gets put on ballots.

I hope that you will petition your church's leadership to support human rights for all people.

[JohnnyLib2]

4. No, but many high school and college classmates were.

Here is one website which outlines the missionary basics.

The group which is being used as the target here is basically quite young adult males, typically leaving home for the first time. I imagine some are in total shock right now.

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/background-information/missionary-program

[kevinbgoode]

5. As opposed to the outright, hateful bigotry shown by the Church

officials toward the gay community? Did I miss the ballot question removing the constitutional right to marry from the Mormons?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. Stop The Silly Knee Jerking.

Bigotry is bigotry and it should never be tolerated no matter where it comes from.

[ZombieHorde]

33. Is it bigotry to judge a group by its actions?

Is it bigotry to judge the Klan for its actions?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. Is it bigotry to blame Jews for killing Jesus?

Yes, probably.

[ZombieHorde]

47. According to the story, Jesus was killed by Romans, not Jews.

The story also included many Jewish protagonists who helped Jesus. Additionally, Jesus himself was Jewish. That story had nothing to do with race. So to answer your question, it is inaccurate to accuse Jews of killing Jesus in that story, and that inaccuracy would most likely be motivated by bigotry.

Repeated question: Is it bigotry to judge the Klan for its actions?

[Goblinmonger]

40. So you pointing out bigotry

would be bigotry, right? Because that is what you are accusing others of. The Mormon church poured millions into the mix to pass Prop 8. That's a fact. Does that mean that every Mormon wanted Prop 8 to pass, no. But it does mean that their hierarchy did. They support that heirarchy with their money and their numbers. If they don't like it, then they should get out and not support the bigotry that is their church. The church is an entity and that entity helped pass prop 8 and I feel very comfortable saying that that entity is bigoted.

[rug]

42. History has an ironic bent.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/reynoldsvus.html

[Obamarama]

6. All I can say is what goes around, comes around.

START PAYING TAXES AND KEEP THE FUCK OFF MY PORCH.

As soon as the Mormons find those pesky golden tablets, then offer to them to the U.S. Treasury as payment of taxes due, MAYBE I'll shut the fuck up.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

10. Unacceptable. Fighting Bigotry With Bigotry Is Dumb.

[Obamarama]

18. Look, OMC....

Don't get your magic underwear in a knot.

I'll probably eventually come around and quietly tolerate the Mormons. I probably really won't even chase them off my porch with obscenities.

BUT, before I can move to that point, I need some catharsis, okay?

I need to yell and vent and probably say some things that may offend others. Sorry if you get caught up in the whirlwind of anger from the GLBT community, but for now you're sort of going to have to sit back, and take it for now. Maybe you can even look at this as an opportunity to stress to your leaders how inherently wrong they were and are to meddle in politics in order to take away another person's civil rights.

A good start toward healing is at least for you to acknowledge that our disappointment and anger is real and justified.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. Unacceptable. Fighting Bigotry With Bigotry Is Dumb.

[Obamarama]

24. Okay, well then...FUCK YOU AND YOUR UNACCEPTABLE.

You unmovable asshat. You can't even acknowledge the authenticity of my disappointment and anger. That's rich, but I guess it shouldn't have been unpredictable.

I swear "you people" annoy me more than Ralph Nader. And before your magic underwear start riding up your ass again, what I mean by "you people" are followers of conservative, fundamental religious sects/cults, not JUST Mormons.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. Unacceptable. Fighting Bigotry With Bigotry Is Dumb.

You seem angry. Take a breath.

[Obamarama]

26. Blah blah blah....

Elder Asshole.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. Unacceptable. Fighting Bigotry With Bigotry Is Dumb.

Really, lie down or something. You seem way too tense. Take a walk, I dunno.

[thraxis]

36. Much in the same way as secular humanism is a cult?

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Downtown Hound]

43. How?

A cult is generally defined as a group who's belief system is so fanatical that its members ignore their own safety or the safety of others n expressing their beliefs. Can you explain to me how secular humanism does this?

[thraxis]

44. A cult has many definitions.

A group's populist cult status begins as rumors of its novel belief system, its great devotions, its idiosyncratic practices, its perceived harmful or beneficial effects on members, or its perceived opposition to the interests of mainstream cultures and governments. Cult rumors most often refer to artistic and fashion movements of passing interest, but persistent rumors may escalate popular concern about relatively small and recently founded religious movements, or non-religious groups, perceived to engage in excessive member control or exploitation.

[Downtown Hound]

45. And again, that relates to secular humanism....how?

[Crunchy Frog]

48. No problem, I understand.

It's the Freeper view of secular humanism.

[undeterred]

7. Not a mormon, but I worked for a progressive mormon

congressional candidate who ran in 2004 and 2006. He is pro choice, pro marriage equality, and progressive in every other way, as is his wife. His religion did not become an issue in the campaign, but whenever I see all the mormon bashing on DU, I am appalled. There are politically progressive mormons. I wouldn't have worked for him if he wasn't. And there are at least 20 mormons in Congress, including Harry Reid.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

12. Thank You For An Intelligent Reply. It Was Greatly Appreciated.

Some here really need to start realizing the things you just said.

[JohnnyLib2]

14. Thanks. That's similar to my real-life experience.

[Downtown Hound]

9. Yeah, poor victimized Mormons

Did anyone put out a ballot initiative that took away any of their civil rights? No. Mormons can get back to me when somebody does, and then they can whine about being the victims of bigotry.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. Bigotry Is Bigotry. It Should Never Be Justified Nor Tolerated.

You are knee jerk reacting and your response is quite silly.

[Downtown Hound]

32. Meh, whatever

Bigotry is hating somebody because of what they are, not what they do. I could care less what the Mormons believe in their personal lives, although I'll admit I find some of their beliefs very silly. But as long as they don't try and shove their lifestyle and their version of sexual morality down the throats of others, they can do what they want. I have no problem with them. I have a big problem with what they do. And even the ones that personally don't agree with prop. 8, and they are a small minority within the church, they still choose to remain there. Their choice of course, but they're going to have to bear the criticism that's about to come with the territory if they choose to do so.

All I know is, I wouldn't be a part of any organization that did what the Mormons just did. So if there are liberal Mormons out there, my question to them would be why they're still there? Being a part of that church means you help make it rich and you help it advance its agenda. And it's agenda right now, is hate. I have the same criticisms of them that I do so-called "moderate Republicans." How can you be a moderate in a party full of extremists? While the moderate Republicans may not be so bad as individuals, in the end, they still only serve to aid the extremists.

[thraxis]

28. You're pretty ignorant of history aren't you?

The mormons were driven out of their homes and murdered about a century and a half ago. And they were told they could no longer practice polygamy legally if they wanted to be Americans.

[Downtown Hound]

31. Actually I knew all that

And I find that it bears no bearing whatsoever to what we're talking about. The Mormons living today aren't persecuted, they in fact, practically own a state. And persecution that happened many years before the living Mormons were born really doesn't justify them doing it to somebody else. And they were persecuted against because they couldn't have two wives, huh? Plenty of lesbians I know that would love to have only one.

[Boojatta]

75. Is there an official LDS website that acknowledges

that Joseph Smith advocated the practice of polygamy or that acknowledges that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy?

[Starry Messenger]

11. This should go well.

[spoony]

15. Why was this moved when the anti-Mormon shit stays in GD?

[undeterred]

16. Because DU is out in the open about Religion Bashing.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. Weird, Right?

[Kip Humphrey]

17. One Mormon on DU? I guess its hard to be a Mormon AND a critical thinker.

Holy sacred underwear, Batman!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

22. With All Due Respect, I Wouldn't Exactly Make A Claim That Being A DU'er = Critical Thinker.

Some of the people on this site are some of the most closed minded ignoramuses with complete lack of critical thinking ability that I've ever seen.

[thraxis]

29. It's hard to be a bigot and a critical thinker.

[Creationismsucks]

19. Please, in the future

Could all these "anti-religious bigotry" posts include two things?

1) a definition of bigotry. Criticism of beliefs is not bigotry.

2) a link to a specific post or thread.

the non-religious are no more fond of being called 'bigots' than anyone else. You've got some instances in mind which you've judged to be examples of "anti-religious bigotry". Forgive me for not simply accepting your fiat-judgment about this. I'd like the opportunity to see for myself which posts you're talking about, and decide whether I agree that you've judged appropriately.

At least two other "anti-religious bigotry" threads were up yesterday, and I notice they also lacked specifics. Questioning religion (yes ALL religion) is a perfectly rational possibility. Does it make one a bigot? Simply disagreeing?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. Not Locked, Just Moved.

[thraxis]

30. what you see alot of on DU is definitely bigotry. It goes way beyond

criticism of religion.
1.Bigotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2.bigotry:The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.

3.bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

[Obamarama]

34. Thanks for that insight, Mr. 37 Posts.

37 Posts and you think you have DU all figured out, eh? So much insight for a newbie.

Look, I understand Free Republic is no longer operational, but wouldn't you be much happier hanging out with your fellow trolls at an alternative site?? I'm just sayin..

[thraxis]

35. I would only have to attend one Klan rally to notice the racism.

Now it's 38

[jonnyblitz]

38. are you bashing the Klan? YOU BIGOT!!

they are a religious organization, too, you know. so if you bash them YOU are a bigot according to YOUR standards.

[Downtown Hound]

41. I only had to live with a Mormon for a day

when I was in college to notice both the ignorance and the bigotry. Actually I lived with him for six months, so my experience is more extensive than that. But it didn't take me long to notice.

[JerseygirlCT]

50. And from that experience with one person

you're able to extrapolate to all members of the LDS?

Do you really think you had a statistically valid sample there?

I find most of their theology pretty loopy, myself. Then again, many here find most of mine the same. So long as I harm no one with it, there's no problem. But I do find harm in this sort of gross generalization based on very limited experience.

[JerseygirlCT]

49. I think it steps into bigotry when one assumes all members of a particular

religion, or all religious people for that matter, ascribe to a set of beliefs (usually beliefs that are attributed to them for this purpose, btw) and treating them not as individuals, but as an amorphous group.

Did the LDS church play a large role in the passing of prop 8? Absolutely. Does that mean that every member of the LDS is now guilty by association - with no knowledge of where that person stands on the issue or how they voted if they live in CA? No, it does not.

Likewise the broad brush that usually begins its work with "all religion is..." and ends with insults. It's pointless, it's insulting, and yes, it's bigotry.

Deal with the issues. Deal with the people actually espousing the opinions you (general you) don't like. But jumping to overly broad conclusions doesn't help with educating people on the issues and furthering the cause at hand.

[Dorian Gray]

51. Very wisely

and rationally stated, Jerseygirl. As always. :)

[JerseygirlCT]

52. Thanks!

:toast:

[aska]

53. I am a Mormon

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some people call us "Mormons" because one of the books in our canon side by side with the Bible is "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ". Mormon was an American prophet who compiled the books that make up the Book of Mormon. He died about 400 A.D. It was his son Moroni who hid the metal plates, a summary of the 1,000 year record of a group of people who migrated from Jerusalem to the Americas about 600 BC. In the 1800's the same Moroni, then a resurrected being, showed the plates to Joseph Smith who translated them into English.

Having been around the 'Net for quite some time I've learned that a very thick skin is required of "Mormons" who journey outside of one of their own sites. I find it sad that the same people who preach "tolerance" and "love" are beginning to mob our church buildings because the majority of people in California and other states who had ballot initiatives on it voted to keep the definition of marriage the same as it has been for millenia.

I joined DU just a few days ago and am technically locked out from voting in your poll. Thanks for presenting another viewpoint in contrast to the currently faddish one about the Mormons.

[charlie]

54. Those who think little of the LDS church

aren't the intolerant tolerant. They're merely people who want to keep the Gospels "the same as it has been for millenia."

Victimhood is more credible when you're not whacking some other poor git on the head for contrived reasons. Mote, beam, eye and all that.

[Sheepshank]

55. I don't understand

...why active practicing mormons must give a mormon lesson prior to giving an opinion, gets pretty old. I don't find the same propensity from Jews or Catholics or from the Spaghetti monster followers. Your first and last sentence would have sufficed. All the stuff in between is conjecture and faith. Surely you realize that the lamanites (the fore fathers of the current, modern day american Indians), said to have descended from those travelers from Jerusalem according to your narrative, are not of jewish descent? Prior to Columbus, Amerindians did NOT contain one drop of jewish blood (I suppose there could be more modern day Jew/indian couplings that have produced a child). You knew that, right? They are descended from Asia, not Israel or Africa or Arabia. Ahhh modern day genetic science is revealing.

[aska]

56. With respect, I doubt that it would matter what I wrote

as soon as you learned I was LDS you felt compelled to criticize and suggest that I should not have written what I chose to write. I am new to this board, I have no idea what readers know or don't know about the LDS Church or the Book of Mormon. Is there some reason why I should not write about them?

Actually that "modern day genetic science" fantasy you refer to was discredited quite some time ago, unless of course someone has come up with positive proof that someone living today is an actual Nephite or Lamanite so his or her DNA can be compared to that of a Native American (if I understand the matter correctly, I'm not a scientist.) The Book of Mormon is not even a record of the tribe of Judah, it's a record of descendents of Joseph.

There is a strong probability that there were many people in the Americas prior to the arrival of Lehi's family about 600 BC. The Book of Mormon mentions "Mulekites" and "Jaredites" as other peoples who too were guided to "the promised land." And there probably were people who crossed the Bering Strait as the theory goes.

But ok, feel free to produce your evidence that "prior to Columbus, Amerindians did NOT contain one drop of jewish blood". I wasn't aware that people living in the 1400's knew about DNA and were able to collect and interpret it. But perhaps it's not so simple as that and you will explain your statement if only for my benefit.

I invite anyone who is seriously interested in looking further into the DNA thingy that was going around about the Mormons a while ago to search "DNA" at http://www.fairlds.org

[moggie]

57. Why do you say that marriage has been unchanged for millennia?

Within your own church, the nature of marriage has changed: polygamy was introduced, and later (officially) abandoned (though it survives in the FLDS). Within living memory, a number of US states forbade interracial marriage. What constitutes "marriageable age" varies from place to place and over time; at present, Arizona has no statutory minimum age, while several US states have different minima for males and females. Early Christians required no formal marriage ceremony: you were married by mutual consent, and this remained the case for hundreds of years. Arranged marriage has gone out of fashion in the west, but is still common in many cultures. For most people, marriage used to be for life, but now divorce is commonplace in many countries. And so on. Like any other social institution, marriage evolves and adapts to the changing society it is part of. This claim that marriage has remained unchanged for ever is just plain wrong - and coming from a member of a church which used to have polygamy, it seems downright dishonest.

[aska]

59. No dishonesty intended

Your points are valid regarding polygamy and the laws of governments. I retract my statement about the definition of marriage having been the same for "millenia". In the USA, for hundreds of years marriage has been the joining together of one man and one woman in what is or was usually a religious rite. In more recent years secular governments and courts have become involved in marriage. Only in the last few years has the traditional definition of marriage been challenged. I think that I can safely say that in general, in the western world, the traditional definition of marriage is between one man and one woman, and has been for centuries.

[moggie]

67. That's not a very compelling argument

Do you believe that a wife should be subservient to her husband? That, after all, was traditionally part of marriage. The Atlantic slave trade persisted for hundreds of years, and slavery existed in Africa before that; I'm quite sure that supporters of slavery used the "tradition" argument against abolitionists. But progressives recognise that human rights trump tradition.

[aska]

68. I guess we could wander off on a lot of paths

with this one but my intention was to point out that in the USA from its beginning, for the majority of Americans, the basic unit of society has always been the traditional family consisting of father (male), mother (female), sons (males), and daughters (females.) Only recently has that traditional definition of marriage and family been challenged.

[moggie]

70. With respect, you're saying more than that

"This is the way it's been in the past" is not a very controversial statement, but you're adding "... and therefore this is the way it should stay, indefinitely". But you haven't shown how one follows from the other. And it's not "wandering" to point out other examples of traditional attitudes which have been supplanted by more enlightened ones.

[Evoman]

58. It's not shyness....it's embarrassment. I'd be pretty embarrassed too if I was a mormon.

[aska]

60. Why are you embarrassed?

Please explain yourself. Why would you find it embarrassing to be a Latter-day Saint?

[Evoman]

61. I'd be embarassed to believe in any religion.

Especially ones where the fraud has been committed within recorded history. Getting taken by a con is one thing. Being taken by an hundred year old con is a whole other bag of beans.

[aska]

62. your choice

Sure, it's your choice to believe in God and Jesus Christ or to reject them. We all have choices to make, some of them with eternal consequences. But I don't know what cons and frauds you are alluding to.

[Evoman]

63. Mormonism was a con. At least Christianity and Islam was based in ignorance, back when people

didn't know shit and god might have actually made sense. Mormonism came about when people should have known better.

The fact that people keep on believing in all this bullshit astounds me.

[aska]

64. That's your opinion

Millions of Latter-day Saints who actually know something about the LDS faith would disagree with you.

It seems obvious to me that you are highly ignorant about the actual religious beliefs and practices of the LDS Church.

But there's a cure, you could spend some time browsing:

http://www.mormon.org

[Evoman]

65. Your holy books are not about the Origin of your religion.

It seems to me that too many mormons know everything there is to know about their theology, but not enough about it's real origins.

Like every other religion out there, I suppose. It's like a fundie who knows where Jesus "came from", but doesn't know about the council of Nicea or Constantine.

Your website does not impress me. I don't need to know the paticulars about your religion to know it's full of crap.

[aska]

66. You logic does not impress me...

Evoman writes: "Your website (http://www.mormon.org) does not impress me. I don't need to know the paticulars about your religion to know it's full of crap."

My response: Most intelligent people do some valid research before formulating and publicly expressing strong opinions. And most intelligent people participating in debate/discussion media raise specific points and provide some reasoning for their position on them. (For example the writer who called me on my statement that the definition of marriage had not changed in "millenia", and provided valid points that I could not refute so had to back down. That's intelligent discussion in my opinion, and everyone learns.)

But ok, conversation concluded then, you obviously have no interest in learning about my religious beliefs, and apparently are interested in publicly ridiculing them with the massive weight of your unlearned opinion. Each to their own...

Enjoy the day.

[Evoman]

73. I know enough.

I've read plenty about Joseph Smith and his tablets. In fact, I was very interesting in him. I spent a lot of time personally researching con-men and confidence men like Yellow Kid Weil and Count Lustig, and Joseph Smith was one of the guys I looked at.

Truth be told, he wasn't even a very good con man...he was small time money digger in the early 1800's. If it wasn't for the religiously gullible, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere.

I'll put it to you straight. Your religion is based on the rantings of a 19th century conman. Whatever came of his ranting means nothing to me. What he thinks of heaven means nothing to me. I neither have the time nor the patience to delve into the particulars of every bs religion that comes down the pipeline.

Even if I knew everything there is to know about mormonism or christianity or Islam or Scientology, it wouldn't matter a whit.

It's the source that gets me everytime. Not the details, the source.

And you have yourself a nice day too. As much as you think it, I do not feel any antagonism towards you and I would like to welcome you to the board. Your religion may be bankrupt, but I do not use it to judge your value to the board. You seem a good sort, and I hope you keep posting here.

[Sheepshank]

76. oh gawd...

"Millions of Latter-day Saints who actually know something about the LDS faith would disagree with you." There are many other millions of Mormons who no longer practice the faith and feel they know even better. Do you know how many more millions of Moslems there are in this world than Mormons? Are they therfore true-er? Seriously this one arguement is silly in the extreme. And "no" the DNA issue has not been debunked by anyone than the mormon apologist. Those apologists that love to write peer reviews and present those studies to "peers", meaning other mormons rather than scholars from a compatible field of study, over a wide range of universities etc). Last I heard, the apologists were arguing that the Jewish mitochondrial DNA was diluted over time, that's why modern day Indians show no trace of it. Perhaps if the First presidency had not altered the preamble in the BoM, you may have realized that is exactly what the Mormons have been presenting to converts for over 100 years. The preamble telling the reader that Lehi and his troop were of Jewish stock, and ALL lamatines were descended of that stock. That preamble having been changed only after the DNA controversy became difficult to ignore.

[moggie]

74. Well, Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud

18 months before he claimed to have retrieved the golden plates, he was found guilty of "being a disorderly person and an impostor". I don't know any more about his crime than that: can you provide any details?

[SidneyCarton]

69. Yes, I'm a Mormon.

Does it suck to have crap spewed at you, sure, but I've seen this for much of my life, so the reaction from DU is neither impressive nor disappointing, I just hide threads and get over it

[yardwork]

72. Which of your rights got voted away on election day?

[SidneyCarton]

77. Those will come next election, as you have hinted at repeatedly.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, bring on the initiatives.

[CraftyGal]

78. I was baptised as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

I have since rescinded my membership. I am appalled that the church would back Proposition 8 in California. Isn't the church supposed to be separate from the state? I am glad that I have rescinded my membership.

CraftyGal