Is Unitarian Universalism really a religion?

[Taverner]

Don't get me wrong - I like them. As an Atheist its one of the few places in churchdom where I am welcome.

However, having been several times - its hard to really consider them a religion, and especially not a faith.

Faith is belief without evidence. Every piece of scripture they quoted was never taken as "The Word of God" but merely a book of wisdom. I think you'd be hard pressed to find Atheists who would disagree with that. In addition, they used the Origin of Species during one of the services I saw - granted, it wasn't a highly technical part - but this was seen as a book of wisdom as well.

To me it seemed like a benevolent society, rather than a religion or a faith.

But what do you think?

[Zebedeo]

1. Interesting

the Origin of Species as a book of holy writ to be studied in church. And yet I've been told that Darwinism/atheism isn't a religion. Bwahaha!

[Book Lover]

5. Why are you conflating a "book of wisdom"

and a "book of holy writ"? Surely you understand the distincition between the two terms.

[Taverner]

7. Yes, as far as I understood it there is no "holy writ" in UU

There are books of wisdom - and my guess is they also include Copernicus, Kepler and Galileo in there

[Goblinmonger]

18. Wow, man

you really got to get off this kick. Just get over it and let it go.

[Taverner]

22. OOPS - nevermind

Threadconfusion

[cosmik debris]

24. You're just making shit up to sound smart aren't you?

Perhaps you will be kind enough to quote the relevant part of The Origin Of Species where it claims to be "a book of holy writ to be studied in church"

And then pretending that "Darwinism" and atheism are the same thing, that is just ridiculous.

Have you lost your mind?

[Orrex]

50. Well, you're half right

Not sure that he sounds smart.

[Orrex]

49. I'll never forget when I received my first Darwinist sacrament

My thumbs and my prefrontal cortex were solemnly granted to me by a venerable priest of Darwin, and there was much rejoicing.

[tularetom]

2. It sounds like as much of a religion as the guys who marry 8 teenage chicks

and then bitch about gay marriage.

[JDPriestly]

3. Our Constitution does not define religion.

I am a Unitarian-Universalist and yes, we are a religion.

Here is one Unitarian-Universalist pastor's view of our religion:


I grew up as the heavily-committed eldest child of an American Baptist minister in the 50's. Committed, that is, to self-preservation, staying out of trouble with our small town and my family, and having fun within safe parameters, namely, church activities. I never felt particularly committed to doctrine; never totally bought the idea of virgin birth or resurrection or miracles or Trinity or other supernatural religious concepts; though I never openly admitted this either. It seemed to me that it didn't matter much whether these things really happened or not. Wasn't the whole point of Christianity the teachings of Jesus? Wasn't that the miracle?

So I faked it a bit, talked a good game, gave the impression of a devout young woman, all because I loved my parents and siblings dearly and they seemed to believe this stuff. I never revealed to them my own questions, because I didn't want to be separated from my family. I could see that they really were devoted to the teachings of Jesus, not just the trappings, and that was the important thing to me.

. . .
As a Unitarian Universalist, first a layperson now a minister, I often choose metaphors to express my ideas of God. I love Brian Wren's hymn "Bring Many Names" in Singing the Living Tradition (#23), with its loving metaphors: God as mother, father, aging, young, living being. But I don't only use human metaphors for God. For me, God is Cosmos, Nature, Universe, Power Beyond Human Power. For me, "Trinity" is too few manifestations of the Divine. (I keep thinking there's a sermon title in there somewhere: "Three is Too Few".)

http://www.uua.org/spirituallife/ministersstudy/118482.shtml

Our tradition includes Emerson and many other great Americans. Yes, we are religious.

I add on edit that I feel at home in almost any church because I value the essence of religious life which is the soul's yearning for spiritual perfection, for peace, harmony and love.

[Taverner]

4. But, may I add, that there are UU Ministers and followers who do not believe in the divine

Or even the 'numinous' (a word I get to use all to infrequently)

How can that be 'faith'

Faith is not to be confused with hope btw...I have Hope Obama will be a great president. I have no faith that he will, but I do have evidence that would support my hope.

[intheflow]

8. UU is a religion, not a faith.

Much like Buddhism.

[Taverner]

10. Hmmm interesting - I think there may be a flaw in my definition of religion

Since I have always equated religion and faith as synonymous....however I can't cite a reason why.

[intheflow]

14. According to Merriam Webster,

faith is a tenant of some religions, whereas religion can be more broadly defined as commitment to a belief system or practice.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: \ˈfāth\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
Date: 13th century
1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions
2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century
1 a: the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

[Taverner]

20. But would Conservatism or Liberalism be considered a religion?

[intheflow]

27. No, I don't think so.

They are descriptors, adjectives. They can qualify the type of religion or belief, but they are not in and of themselves a religion.

Although, again consulting M-W, one definition of Liberalism is "a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity." Who knew? :shrug: But there's no corresponding religious definition inherent in the word Conservatism.

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

6. If, by a religion, you mean a dogma, then no.

I prefer to call it a religious movement. Historically, its core is more attitudinal than doctrinal. It's about a common (free and ethical) way of approaching religion, than a fixed body of doctrine. It grew largely out of "radical Reformation," so radical that it refuses to be fenced in by even its Christian roots. I call it the most "stubbornly protestant" of all religious faiths (small p). Free agency, or soul freedom, is perhaps its most essential premise. It's built around the potential of unique individuals to think for themselves--extended even to matters of religion and conscience--and to live good and responsible lives, once given the opportunity. It's also grounded in the Age of Enlightenment, in the natural rather than supernatural explanations of the universe.

It's religious, in the sense that it's about convictions more than philosophies. It's about philosophies to live by--to invest your life in--rather than idle belief. That's why I disagree with anybody who calls it merely a social club or noncommitted study of beliefs.

That's my short answer. I'd say no, it's not "a" religion, but it's a religious movement which has a rich heritage and legacy of freedom and reason applied even to matters of religion and conscience. It's a movement in that it's never settled, still moving, still evolving.

[Taverner]

9. Would you call it a 'faith'?

Interesting answer btw...

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

11. Yes, in the same way we use the term worship.

Yes, I "hope" the sun will rise tomorrow, but I also base it on a faith (largely inductive more than deductive) in the workings of the universe. Same can be applied to a faith in human beings to (at least sometimes) to follow their "better angels."

On worship, we use the root-word which means "worth ship." We affirm and celebrate, often as sacred, the worth of certain things, principles, premises, values. We don't use worship in the sense that many other religions do, as in worship of idols, texts, church leaders, etc.

[Taverner]

23. Now this is getting juicy

Affirm and Celbrate, which would differ greatly than some Islamic and Christians' definition of worship

To them it would be more bow down in subservience

[Meshuga]

12. Pretty similar to the Reform Judaism approach

That's why there are quite a few rabbis who are relaxing the rules of "interfaith" marriages because if a rabbi says no to an interfaith couple they will always have UU waiting with open arms and providing a very similar philosophy.

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

15. Right, our closest "cousins" in religion...

have been the Quakers (especially the more humanistic, universalist/no hell factions); Humanistic and Reform Judaism; and the Congregationalists (now the United Church of Christ), which share the same Puritan roots of the Unitarian side of our movement. On the Universalist side, our "closest kin" were mostly Quakers and non-Calvinistic Baptists (...who, had a higher, less judgmental notion of man, and little if any belief in Hell).

The subject of UU history is, obviously, one of my hobbies. It goes back at least to the 1500's, and to a few bold and stubbornly protestant "mavericks" in even the 1400's...people like Sebastian Castellio and Hans Denck.

[LiberalEsto]

28. Don't forget the Arians of the 4th century CE

who believed God was One, not Three-part. They were declared heretics by the Council of Nicea.

Among other things, early Unitarians believed in God as One, as opposed to Trinitarians, who believe in a Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Universalists, who merged with the Unitarians in the early 1960s, believe in universal salvation.

[Mark E. Smith]

13. Deism, basically

God is out there, but God doesn't want to get
too intimately involved in the day to day of
human affairs. And honestly, can you blame Him?

Set the whole thing in motion, then found
something else to do.

I was raised a Unitarian. One thing that I was
taught there that has always stuck in my mind:
If God really does care about what rituals you
observe, the clothes that you wear when you
praise Him, or what songs you sing, or the
prayers you make, or even how you wear your hair,
then He would have to be a very petty God. And
if He cares about that stuff that deeply, we're
all in big trouble because chances are pretty
good that we'll never get it right.

Religious ritual says a lot more about humankind
than it does God.

[Goblinmonger]

16. You don't have to believe in an absent god

to be a unitarian. i am an atheist and a unitarian. those aren't imcompatible.

[Mark E. Smith]

30. Yeah, but atheism is just sooooo much work

Wears me out to be perfectly honest.

Have you ever tried to banish the concept of God
from your mind? It just doesn't happen. It's there
like sex, hunger, and the nagging desire for a
stiff drink after work.

If you were to fall off of a cliff what would be
the first thing to come to mind? God, right? It's
like this is something wired into our DNA.

There just seems to me to be something terribly
strenuous about atheism.

[Book Lover]

31. What can I say except

that I completely disagree with every word of your post. Never having fallen off a cliff, I can't say with authority what my first thoughts would be, but I think they'd be something along the lines of, "ohshitohshitohsit!"

Atheism is no mental strain to me, for what it's worth.

[beam me up scottie]

32. So your belief in God is just like any other addiction?

"Have you ever tried to banish the concept of God
from your mind?"

I don't need to banish something that was never there in the first place.

"It's like this is something wired into our DNA."

No. No it's not.

[Mark E. Smith]

34. Sure. Pretty much the human condition, right?

Whatever it is you believe or I believe, in the end they are
merely ineffectual attempts to craft some sort of meaning out
of the chaos that is human existence.

Booze, drugs, sports, consumerism, intellectual fetishes,
endless dreary conversations attempting to prove or disprove
the existence of a superior being, all attempts to fill the
void that most naturally find quite difficult to take.

Where do you turn when the idea of God is so unappealing, yet
everything else is worse?

Ever read a book called Denial Of Death? Written by a guy named
Ernest Becker? Pretty interesting stuff.

[beam me up scottie]

36. Oh brother.

Booze, drugs, sports, consumerism, intellectual fetishes,
endless dreary conversations attempting to prove or disprove
the existence of a superior being, all attempts to fill the
void that most naturally find quite difficult to take.

What void?

Where do you turn when the idea of God is so unappealing, yet
everything else is worse?

What the hell are you talking about? How can one find something that cannot even be defined "unappealing"?

Ever read a book called Denial Of Death? Written by a guy named
Ernest Becker? Pretty interesting stuff.

This one?

"Another theme running throughout the book is that humanity's traditional "hero-systems" i.e. religion, are no longer convincing in the age of reason; science is attempting to solve the problem of man, something that Becker feels it can never do. The book states that we need new convincing "illusions" that enable us to feel heroic in the grand scheme of things, i.e. immortal."

No, thanks. Other than explaining the source of your ignorance, it probably has little to offer people who were never indoctrinated.

[Mark E. Smith]

37. Is there such a thing as fundamentalist atheists?

Because if there is you would certainly fit the bill.

The possibility of conversation with true believers is always a rather slim one. And the fact that you
wouldn't even entertain reading a Pulitzer Prize winning book that has been quoted by everyone from
Bill Clinton to Woody Allen because it might say things antithetical to what you hold to your heart like
a Rosary is rather, um, sad.

Funny thing is, there is a lot in Denial of Death that you would not only find interesting, but also
supportive of your opinions. And hey, you could always burn it, you know.

Enjoy your belief system.

[beam me up scottie]

38. Only in the minds of those too ignorant to know the definition of atheism.

You know nothing of my opinions, my beliefs, or the lack of them, so I'll thank you to please keep your proselytizing and dime-store psychoanalysis to yourself.

atheism is just sooooo much work

Get back to me if that clue ever arrives.

[Mark E. Smith]

41. Your content-free assumption of intellectual superiority gave me a laugh this morning

Like I said, atheism is just so much work. Probably explains your cranky demeanor.

[cosmik debris]

42. Everything you have said is totally alien

to my decades of experience as an atheist. You seem to have created this elaborate straw man--or is it a stereotype--that you can reduce to absurdity for insult value.

Your concept of atheism is as false as it is shallow and insulting.

The only thing difficult about being an atheist is enduring the hateful, ignorant attitude we get from people like you.

[Meshuga]

43. It is not a matter of intellectual superiority

She is merely pointing out that you so far have shown ignorance about what atheism means. The other possibility is that you might be playing dumb in order to insult.

[Mark E. Smith]

44. Nah.

Go to the top of this absurd little exercise
and do note that I laid out a perspective. In
an innocent and open way. Then read the
responses. I basically laid out my interpretation
of the Unitarian belief. A belief I was raised in,
by the way. And in response I got a bunch of
'victim culture' umbrage from those espousing
atheism. Umbrage that left me with the impression
that they were somehow sore with me for not putting
their needs at the center of my post.

Honestly, discussing atheism when I originally
posted here was about as far from my intent as
you can get. Talking about doorknobs would be
just about as interesting in my opinion.

Now I will confess that I do have a certain flair
for insult, and I have had some guilty fun. But I
think that by reviewing what has been said here
you will see that it was not my original design.
I only replied in kind.

[Goblinmonger]

45. I agree with the above

You are either completely ignorant about atheism or you are just a button pusher looking to insult. I am leaning to the second, because your use of "doorknob" was fabulous button-pushing that you can then just shrug your shoulder and tsk tsk your way out of. Beautiful.

Or you're ignorant. That's still out there.

[Mark E. Smith]

46. I guess it can be hard for some when people ..

.. don't take their obsessions
seriously.

But what is the obligation to know
about atheism? It seems like such
an obscure and futile little sidebar
to the business of life. Kind of like
dedicating one's life to studying
peduncles.

Enlighten me, oh sage of the belief
of no beliefs. Why should I give a
shit?

[cosmik debris]

48. What a tiny little prick. n/t

[Mark E. Smith]

51. But enough about you ..

.. Cosmik Debris (how apt!). You do know that
these revelations about your personal shortcomings
are not quite as shocking - or surprising - as you
might think. I do hope that was not the effect you
were hoping for.

In the end masturbatory self-exposure is just that,
masturbatory.

Why don't you just dry yourself off and try acting
like an adult, OK?

[cosmik debris]

52. I'm pretty sure you are the ONLY one

who misunderstood the subject of that comment.

[Mark E. Smith]

53. Yeah, it was a pretty sophisticated observation ..

[Oregone]

55. Hilarious cartoons

:)

[PassingFair]

59. You are the one who is purporting to speak for everyone.

You are the one with the void.

I think it lies between your ears.

[Goblinmonger]

39. Contrary to popular theist belief

I do NOT have a god-shaped hole in my heart. I do just fine without one.

[Random_Australian]

60. Eh, what?

Never heard that before. Are you saying that happens to you, or are you saying it happens to most atheists?

[muriel_volestrangler]

63. No, not in our 'DNA'; perhaps it's been inserted irreversbily into your mind

thanks to your upbringing. But you could talk to billions of humans that don't have much of an idea of 'God' (especially capitalised, implying a 'supreme being') at all - Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, animists and so on.

As it happens, I have fallen off a cliff, albeit while attached to a rope, and the first thing to come to mind was, as BookLover said, "oh shit", along with "will the gear/my second hold me?" And I was brought up in a basically Christian household. If I can get a reflex thought about 'God' out of my mind, perhaps you can too. It didn't take effort, really. Saying 'bless you' when someone sneezes is actually a reflex I haven't dropped, though - maybe because it can seem a way of expressing concern too.

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

21. Even deism doesn't capture it.

The core is in the attitude, not the specific belief. UU has Buddhists, Hindus, Muslems, atheists...what they all share is a common attitude and common principles--but not necessarily a common "God-belief." Many of us don't even use that word. The closest all-embracing term I can think of for modern-day UU is "humanistic" (as an adjective not a noun). Even those of us who still consider ourselves Christian share a decidedly humanistic religious or spiritual worldview, whether we also use the term "God" or not. (Another friend of mine uses the term "humanistic religious naturalist" and another one uses the term "liberal religious community." Whatever the tags, it's more about the attitude we share--the way we approach our truths, and how tightly we hold them, and how we choose to live together--than about what names we use for our beliefs.

[Taverner]

25. UU doesn't proscribe theism

One can be an Atheist and still be a UU

[Goblinmonger]

17. I don't think it is

and my name is signed in the book of our local unitarian fellowship.

I actually have the discussion with my wife (also a unitarian) couple times a year. I don't think it is a religion, but I come at this as someone who graduated from a catholic high school seminary. So I may have a different outlook on what a religion actually is. To me a religion has a dogma. UU does not. It is a philosophy. It is spiritual. But I don't think it is a religion.

[msongs]

19. visit the national website uua.org or visit your local uu church & find out ->

my take is that one must search for one's own truth, using multiple sources and influences. that is the basic take of the UUA. you can be of any religion, or of no religion, instead, spritual, or completely atheist if you like.

what you will not do is sit like robots while some central authority tells you how to think and act under fear and punishment in hell or some other non existant place, using only one text as your bible, to exclusion of all other texts.

UU churches are independent of the national group but associated, and some are more christian, while some are quite a bit less so.

Is it actually a "religion"? that's for each member to decide really.

Msongs

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

26. Just as FYI...

not that I'm trying to proselytize, of course, but I have many links to introductory information at my little UU message board;

http://faithofthefree.informe.com

[intheflow]

29. Not sure that I agree with your last statement:

"Is it actually a "religion"? that's for each member to decide really."

The UUA is recognized as a religious institution by the IRS. While some of us attend Fellowships or Societies, most UUs go to a Church on Sunday mornings. Our paid leaders are ministers, our children's programs are called religious education, most of the hymns we sing are traditional (although the words are likely changed slightly), and our services most often follow a Protestant format, i.e., hymn, call to service, affirmation, hymn, reflective reading (instead of scripture), sermon, closing hymn. (I say "our services" in the broadest sense of the movement, I'm not talking about any particular congregation. I'm 2/3 of the way through becoming a UU minister and have visited UU congregations all over the country--even Alaska! I have found that basic service layout to be consistent, even in overtly atheist congregations. Of course this excludes Sundays with special programs.)

Honestly, if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it's a duck. Members do not get to decide if UUism is a religion. Though of course they can decide if they, personally, are religious ducks, er, people. ;)

I know, I know... clear as mud! :rofl:

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[kwassa]

35. Since I am a recovered Unitarian, I would say no, it is not a religion.

I grew up in the church.

It is more of a secular humanist/ethical society. It has a quality of Protestant Sentimentalism, in that it retains the format and hymns of a Protestant church service without any of the content. Without the content, why call it a church? I've never had a satisfactory answer for that.

I've yet to be in a Unitarian church where the G-word is used, and I've been in about ten in different parts of the country. Many are very anti-Christian, for all the words claiming to be about all religions and spirituality. I never encountered either in my years in the church, either.

Unitarians also have a very high opinion of themselves, which is fine, except no one else seems to care. They see themselves as quite unique, and the great opposition to fundamentalism, not realizing than many of the mainline denominations are just as liberal as they are.

Anyways, any organization whose primary mission is not focused on pursuing a spiritual path (as abused and as stretched out as the word spiritual has become) is not a church to me, and to me spiritual has to involve some concept of God or sense of the Divine somewhere to qualify. It is not a religious organization to me, it is more of a social club that talks about ethical and political issues.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. The only UU congregation that I've observed up close and personal

(friends belonged to it) seemed full of nice people, but more like a lecture series on comparative religion and social issues than a church.

One of the odd things was the way they celebrated winter holidays, all of them: Chanukah on the first Sunday in December, Christmas on the second Sunday (which was actually during Chanukah that year), Solstice on the third Sunday (two days before Christmas) and Kwanzaa on the fourth Sunday (which by coincidence was actually during Kwanzaa).

According to my friends, the celebrations seemed to consist of their fine choir singing a few appropriate songs, the ministers talking about the origins and practices of each holiday, and the social groups serving appropriate refreshments at coffee hour: latkes the first Sunday, Christmas cookies the second Sunday, some sort of whole grain bread with honey the third Sunday, and sweet potato tarts the fourth Sunday.

It sounded kind of fun, but in a detached sort of way, nothing like attending a Christmas or Chanukah celebration where the holiday is part of the group's heritage and has emotional and spiritual resonance with the attendees.

[Critters2]

61. this was my experience. My ex was UU. I was once invited to preach at his church,

but was warned by the minister NOT to use "the G-word". I said I couldn't preach without doing so. He decided to let me preach, but was convinced people would be offended. My sermon was well-received. People were even surprised to see that a theist, indeed a Christian, could seem reasonable and intelligent. One guy was put out: "I became a UU to get away from this nonsense". Everyone else seemed fine.

I found UUs condescending and completely lacking in self-awareness. They were constantly telling me I was "too bright to be a Christian", and hoping for that day when I would come to my senses and become a UU. And had no clue why these attitudes were insulting to me and my faith.

They were also defined by the religions they'd left. Most were ex-fundies of some kind, and were still pissed off about that. I came to see UUism not as something to which people were attracted for its own sake, but just a negative reaction to other experiences. I didn't find that attractive.

[kwassa]

62. UU tends to be a reactive faith

more defined by what it is not, rather than what it is, and filled by people running away from something else.

and because of that, the kids of the members rarely stick with the church, from an article I read, because there is not a cohesive idea defining it.

[Bragi]

47. UU joke

Q: So what do get when you cross a Unitarian with a Jehovas Witness?

A: Someone who knocks on your door for no explicable reason.

Thank you, thank you.

- B

[kwassa]

54. There's a million of them

Did you hear about how the Klan came to the Unitarian's house and burned a question mark on the lawn?

[secretoftheoldclock]

56. Humantistic religion...believing in the power of Man

Although it seems to vary from church to church. I was at one which was so political, I felt I had wandered into a Wobblies rally or something. People who called themselves Socialists! And here's a funny little story: at this church, there were atheists. One was a family friend (she happened to be Jewish, too, which is revelant). On Easter Sunday, they had a guest minister. He happened to mentioned Jesus (don't know why; it's only Easter for Christ's sake!) and this woman walked out of the sanctuary! She was up there in years, too: probably 80s...neat lady, but very seriously atheistic.

[really annoyed]

57. I was told by a Lutheran once...

that UU was a cult. :shrug:

I attended a UU church for a bit - I didn't like it.

[GliderGuider]

58. My parents helped found a Unitarian fellowship in Canada in 1954

They never considered it a "religion", but rather a humanist fellowship. They are both staunch anti-religious atheists, and their biggest disappointment was when the fellowship turned toward spirit :-) As a kid I remember sitting in on wonderfully stimulating talks and panel discussions on Sundays.

I saw a cartoon years ago showing a group of people labelled "Unitarians" walking on a path through the clouds. The path had a fork in it. One branch had a signpost reading, "To Heaven", while the other was posted, "To a Panel Discussion about Heaven" -- and all the Unitarians were heading for the panel discussion.