A different type of Christian.

[Rainbowreflect]

Many people on DU are understandable angry with the very public and vocal "Christians" in our country.
The ones who preach hate, division, bigotry and fear from their pulpits and TV shows.

The so called "Christians" who seem to know nothing of what Jesus taught and care only for themselves and their own power.

I would like to share a little of the other side. The Christians that are important in my life. The Christian view that had more than anything else to do with me being liberal.

First is my mother, who after my father died went back to school and became a teacher. Although she was raising 4 children all by herself she always had time to help a neighbor or visit a someone in the hospital. My mother taught us that most important thing we could do was show kindness to others. That giving of your time, money and self was what made you rich, even when you were low on them yourself.

Then there is my brother. One of the most caring people I have every had the privilege of knowing. He has always accepted people for who they are no matter what. His faith lead him to the ministry and he is IMHO a true follower of Christ. My brother who despite having MS is always doing for others. As a minister in Florida he wrote and spoke against amendment 2 because his faith and his heart said it was wrong.

Also, there is my minister. A women I meet at a peace rally in March of 2006. She is a passionate, liberal women of faith in a very red state. A brave women who speaks out against hate, bigotry and war. A women who in her sermon today spoke of how far we have come as a nation, but how far we still have to go. She fought back tears as she spoke of the horrible racial attacks, graffiti, and threats across our country since Obama won the election. She reminded us that we must fight for what is right, with love.

I hope those of you who are understandable disgusted with the loud, angry "Christians" we hear too ofter in this country will try to remember that there are good, kind caring people of faith as well.

Thanks!

[annabanana]

1. I am fortunate to have this "kind of" Christian in my life too.

They are people who walk the walk.

[Aristus]

2. I'm a Christian, and I try to be one of "the good ones". Jesus was a liberal after all...

I can't understand how people can take the uplifting and transformative message of the Gospels, and use it as a platform for hatred and bigotry.

I hope we can take our faith back from the haters someday. I will live my spiritual life as if that had already happened...

[Rainbowreflect]

7. I love that thought!

"I will live my spiritual life as if that had already happened..."

[RiverStone]

3. Saw this yesterday

http://www.lionsgate.com/religulous/

Good flick and I am of the belief that far too much damage and hurt has come from organized religion than the opposite.

This is not saying that there are not people of compassion, like your brother, who walk their talk. But in my experience (and I'll own that it is my experience), I find far more commonality in choosing to walk a spiritual life or even a secular life without labeling it under the umbrella of one religion or another.

I prefer inclusive to exclusive --- just one view. And I sure as hell would not assume what is right for anybody else.

peace~:)

[ChazII]

4. Luckily, most of the Christians I have met

and that are in my church, are the type you describe. The bad apples give the rest of us a bad name and image. Two of the churches I have been involved with had food pantries where the homeless and those who just need a helping could get food for themselves and their families. Both also had an emergency fund to help with bills the family may have.

[Ecumenist]

5. Thank you, Rainbowreflect!! Thank you so much for posting this!!

There are MILLIONS of us out there and we outnumber the nutty, cultic, pharisee-like types that scream everyday and promote bigotry, hate and hypocrisy.

I am those in my family and friends are but a few and by extension, there are 10s of millions more out there. Thank you!!:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[dkofos]

6. Would you please work harder to take your religion back from the crazy people.

They are a scourge to all religions.

[Rainbowreflect]

9. I wish I knew how.

I try to be a different type of Christain, but they are so loud and angry.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Alas, they consider liberal Christians to be second on their shit list after atheists

They don't listen to us. They don't even consider us fellow Christians.

[mike_c]

8. it's all delusional anyway....

Do you really believe that invisible people live in the sky and direct your life? That is utterly insane.

[DearAbby]

11. What was the reason

coming into this tread to shit on it? There was absolutely no reason for this remark.

[mike_c]

13. well, in the first place this is a member forum...

...and I'm a member. If someone does not want to discuss things here-- including dissenting views-- then they shouldn't be posted out in the open. The OP has responded, so I can only assume the DUer did indeed mean to discuss the issue.

In the second place, my opinion on the matter IS germane. The OP proposes that there are good xtians and bad xtians. I counter that they're all mentally unstable if they believe in invisible beings that live in the sky and speak with them.

[DearAbby]

19. when I think of discussions

I think of meaningful discussions. The remark was totally uncalled for, not meaningful in anyway, but just to shit on the thread. I pointed it out, as a member of this forum.

Edit to add: I am also an Atheist.

[nolabels]

53. What is the difference between boisterous delusionalist and mannered delusionalist?

Answer: One will he feels your pain and sorry as he twists the knife

[otherlander]

58. Sentence structure FAIL.

[nolabels]

67. Thanks for laugh

My efforts at trying to be hostile are often fails. Maybe i will get them next time :-)

[bobbolink]

108. "Members" don't need to ridicule each other.

Building peace doesn't come by attacking each others' beliefs.

[mike_c]

111. no-- it comes from CHALLENGING each other's beliefs....

That, I'm afraid, is my profession.

And yes, I do find the christian myths I've challenged here pretty ridiculous.

[spoony]

175. You don't seem particularly good at your "profession" then.

Because you haven't "challenged" anything. Walking into a thread and announcing that people who disagree with you are mentally ill is not challenging beliefs. The only thing one can learn from such an experience is to laugh at your lack of social graces and make a mental note to avoid you in the future.

[Zhade]

136. Ridiculing the belief isn't ridiculing the person.

There's no requirement to respect ludicrous beliefs.

[muriel_volestrangler]

194. But calling the people 'mentally unstable' is ridiculing them, I think

or, worse still, insulting them.

[DeSwiss]

226. But in every other respect....

...when people purport to know of, or to believe in the existence of the invisible -- the fantastic -- the righteousness of the imposition of their doctrines and/or beliefs upon others without comment, we automatically judge such people to be demanding, dogmatic and/or mentally unstable. We see it all the time now in the streets and we walk around them and divert our path away from them.

Its only when this idea is attached to the god-idea that we are required to defer. That we give aid and support to things which have no credibility in the way in which we judge everything else in our lives. Here, we are supposed to respect BS because its BS about "god."

- Well, I'm through deferring to religionists in my lifetime. Because I've found that when we defer to them, all we end up with, is http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x189095">more defiant and ridiculous religious nuts. And whenever that has happened in the past, historically it is soon followed by laws to enforce it....

[CAG]

146. Interesting dissenting opinion "That is utterly insane"

"they're all mentally unstable if they believe in invisible beings that live in the sky and speak with them"

Sooo... every DU member that believes in a deity, be that person a jew, christian, muslim, etc, is mentally unstable and "utterly insane", I take that to be your position.

Good, progressive, open-minded comments there.

Do you notice that these types of comments pop up a lot when a religious person dares to post anything about religion? I wonder what would happen if the religious persons of DU started calling atheists, agnostics, etc, "insane", ridiculed their belief, etc? I have to wonder, because honestly, I've never seen a religious person on DU be so callous or close-minded to spout such horrible, disrespectful nonsense to another DUer.

[Zhade]

163. I don't think you can leave off the end of his sentence. Doing so creates a misleading strawman.

NT!

[CAG]

171. oh the inevitable "strawman" comment... I'm scared!!!, My argument is

totally screwn now that my debator has used the big bingo word.

Come on, the quote is there for you to see a half of a centimeter above my post. Please tell me how my noncareful posting at freaking midnight really twisted his words and meaning.

[Zhade]

183. If you don't like the callout, perhaps you should engage in fewer strawman arguments.

NT!

[CAG]

200. once again evading the point

[Crunchy Frog]

225. They'd scream about how victimized they are.

I've seen it happen here before.

[Rainbowreflect]

12. I don't trust people who are absolutely sure they are completely right.

Whether someone who is sure their religion is the only true one, or someone who is sure that anyone who has any religious faith is "utterly insane". I am the first to admit I don't know the truth I only know what makes sense to me.

[Zhade]

137. Mike didn't say you are insane. He said your BELIEFS are insane.

NT!

[CAG]

147. Wow, what nit-pickedness... I guess you fell for the Big Dog's

phrase of "it depends on what the definition of "is" is"

[Zhade]

150. What a person chooses to believe is not that person.

NT!

[CAG]

157. Per mike c: "I counter that they're all mentally unstable if they believe ..."

you can look up the rest yourself....

[Zhade]

161. Ooops, he did indeed. My bad!

Well, holding an irrational belief is crazy. But does it make one wholly insane? Interesting question to ponder.

[CAG]

167. and after reading the very nice OP post, to think its rational

to respond with ridiculing their belief, calling them insane, etc, just seems crazy, but does it make on wholly insane? Another question to ponder.

BTW, serious note, thanks for the acknowledgement.

[Zhade]

168. I love Mike. It wasn't tactful, but I support his general view.

Thanks for the exchange!

[ZombieHorde]

202. Are you certain that people who are absolutely sure they are commpletely

right are untrustworthy?

[MineralMan]

14. What do you

believe? Are you so certain that your beliefs and views are completely rational? As an atheist, I disbelieve in all supernatural entities, but I have no problem with what others believe, as long as their beliefs aren't forced on me.

Leave Christians alone. That's my advice, unless they try to force you to believe as they do or somehow restrict you in living.

If you don't know any Christians who are good people, then you need to get out more, I think.

[mike_c]

17. you've answered the question for me....

Leave Christians alone. That's my advice, unless they try to force you to believe as they do or somehow restrict you in living.

Emphasis added.

Do you seriously propose that christians are not ALL OVER trying to force the rest of us to live according to their delusions? Have you paid any attention to political or social discourse in the last couple of thousand years?

[DearAbby]

22. You assume all Christians are the same...

Do you seriously propose that christians are not ALL OVER trying to force the rest of us to live according to their delusions? Have you paid any attention to political or social discourse in the last couple of thousand years?

They are not the same, this is the reason for this thread you so willingly shit all over.

These people are not Christians, they are Religians. They believe in organized Religion, not the core values or beliefs of their diety. Even as an atheist, I can find value in the teachings that was ascribed to Jesus. I can take bits and pieces of all teachings and apply it. That is the beauty of freedom.

[mike_c]

28. their "core teachings" are pure nonesense....

Look, this isn't the Religion Forum so let's not use this thread to debate the core teachings of christianity, unless you disagree that they are all founded upon belief:

1) in an invisible being or group of invisible beings that live in the sky;

2) that the invisible sky people direct the course of events here on earth in some fashion or other;

3) that they are amenable to producing favorable outcomes for folks who talk to them, and that in some form or another they respond to such talk, and

4) they can grant their believers eternal life.

Any discussion of whether there are good christians or bad christians that ignores the foundational truth that ALL christians are delusional is pretty silly, don't you think? It's like using the fact that there are good schizophrenics and bad schizophrenics to hide the fact that all schizophrenics are mentally ill.

[DearAbby]

35. True...this isnt the right forum for this debate

that is why I was asking for the reasons you would shit in this thread...It is clear the OP didnt invite this type of debate. You could have ignored it, yet you had to come in and crap all over it...my first question stands. Why?

[mike_c]

37. I've explained in a couple of different ways why I think my comments...

...about the underlying belief system are germane to this discussion. Your objection is noted.

[npk]

113. They're not invisible.

It's just that our governments have refused to release the photographic evidence that they exist.

[Zhade]

138. Please, please tell me that was sarcasm.

NT!

[npk]

190. Yes. Sarcasm!

I was making a joke about the little space men Bill Maher reference. Mainly poking a little fun.

[spoony]

40. Then surely you can point out where in this thread

or even in this entire forum, where such offensive proselytising is occurring that justifies your knee-jerk response.

[CAG]

158. boy, still seems like we're waiting for his reply, doesn't it??

I hear the sounds of birds chirping....

[spoony]

176. Perhaps he's busy broadening some student minds by

telling them how stupid they are compared to him. Thank God I got a good education lacking in "professionals" like him.

[Steely_Dan]

60. I Saw...

a documentary the other day on a university (I think it was called Patrick Henry University) where their main goal was to produce students who will go into government and rule based on the word of God. Very scary.

-P

[timtom]

101. You whine too damn much.

Absolutely no heightened dialogue, no compelling intellectual acuity.

Nothing but poop.

[TrogL]

122. Just the Evangelicals

...which I know is painting with a broad brush.

There are moderate and even liberal Christian denominations who manage to keep their hands to themselves.

With the Catholics going off the deep end, however, the list just got shorter and in many cases it's the liturgical side of a two-or-more-way schism.

[chiefofclarinet]

36. As I have said below, there is no unity in Christianity anymore

1900 years ago, when the Jewish sect called Christianity was in its roots, there wasn't unity. There is even less now, with hundreds of denominations of churches with different beliefs.

The Christians I know do not believe in "invisible people in the sky." That is the image portrayed originally by fundamentalist Catholics in the Middle Ages, and perpetuated by the fundamentalist non-Catholics of today. The image of the old guy with the white beard is actually pagan, and stems primarily from the Greek god of Zeus and the Roman god of Jupiter. There are some, but most liberal Christians hardly consider them "Christian." (likewise, they don't consider liberal Christians any more Christian than atheists.)

For many people, Christianity is not about the belief in the supernatural beings; it is about daily life and how to live it right. That is what I gain from reading the Bible, both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Testament. I see how people behave morally and "right" and imitate that; I see how people behave immorally and "wrong" and shy away from that. It is an instruction manual, a how-to guide, a "For Dummies" book.

However, for most Christians, the Bible is no longer a how-to guide, but a weapon. It's a weapon against everything these psychos don't believe in. They conveniently quote parts (especially from Leviticus) that taken out of context agrees with what they say, but ignore the next verse that contradicts the message.

So, I agree that many Christians are completely mental. But, don't lump all Christians into one pile; there are some that walk the walk just as Jesus of Nazareth did.

[mike_c]

66. "...Christianity is not about the belief in the supernatural beings."

Folks who don't accept supernatural beings are, by definition, not christians and therefore not really the subject of this thread. Come on-- christianity is ALL about belief in supernatural beings-- god, the holy trinity, angels, demons, whatever. Whether one proposes that god is a white-bearded patriarch in the sky or a metaphor that lives between the lines everywhere, it's all an appeal to unseen presences that guide or judge people's lives.

Sure, one can use the bible or other religious teachings strictly as moral guides, a twelve step program to better character, and reject all the supernatural mumbo-jumbo that comes along with it, but in doing so we reject the core teaching itself-- the philosophical justification for the good character part.

The essence of christian mythology is that there is an unseeable god. That's superstitious nonsense.

[Zhade]

139. Uh, a zombie savior IS a supernatural being they readily believe in, you know.

I've never heard of a christian who didn't believe in jesus.

[mwb970]

43. Um, who's delusional again?

Do you really believe that spirituality and religion are entirely based on "invisible people that live in the sky and direct your life"? That is utterly insane (and breathtakingly shallow), not to mention demeaning to Christians and other people of faith.

I had the same view about religion as you do when I was 12. Then I grew up.

[mr blur]

49. Well, if you grew up a little more,

you might realise that it is all delusion and fantasy. Once again you echo the plea that we must all be respectful to "people of faith". Why? Why must I respect your delusions when I don't demand that you respect mine? No wonder your country is in such a fucked-up state.

[mwb970]

57. Gosh, spirituality is much subtler than you give it credit for.

And your ideas about respect are peculiar indeed. You come across as a narrow-minded person who already "knows it all" with no humility or sense of balance. If this is your real self, I feel sorry for you.

[mike_c]

69. the last time I checked, the christian instruction manual was filled with references...

...to an invisible creature named "god" who lives "up in heaven" and directs the activities of equally invisible winged people called "angels." I believe they're fighting with another invisible fellow named "satan" who leads an army of "demons" in a quest for peoples' "souls."

So now it's "breathtakingly shallow" to point out the insanity-- or just plain superstitiousness-- of those notions? Get back to me about that when christians meet in churches to deny the delusional parts of their beliefs rather than to congratulate one another for believing such nonsense.

[CAG]

155. so does the jewish faith, the muslim faith, the hindu faith, the buddhist

faith, the wiccan faith, etc etc (ie believe in things not seen, etc). So please just come out with it, man, anyone who believes in ANYTHING of "faith" is just insane, a moron, evil, redneck, just choose whatever name you want to call us.

And remember, big guy, when you call us that, try also using your big snarky words to the FACE of MLK Jr, President Obama, Ghandhi, Mother Teresa, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, the entire Kennedy family, my mother and father, my wife, my children, Jimmy Carter, FDR, Dennis Kucinich, Paul Wellstone, Rosa Parks.....

I urge you to re-read the OP's message and ask yourself, "why couldn't I hold back this time since this was just a very nice, thoughtful post by a fellow DUer?"

[Dorian Gray]

44. Personally

I think your response is insane. You know you are going to piss off half the people in this thread, and that's the only purpose. You certainly won't convince with that type of statement. So the only purpose it serves is to cause division while being condescending. The motives of someone not thinking logically about the outcome of their words.

[LanternWaste]

68. Much like philosophy and politics...

"it's all delusional anyway...."

Much like philosophy, and politics, and other man-made constructs we base our lives on, yet exist nowhere but our own minds, imaginations, and faiths...

[mike_c]

71. true enough....

:thumbsup:

[LanternWaste]

73. And yet you appear (or, at least I infer)...

And yet you appear (or, at least I infer) to base your life on one or more of these imaginary constructs (progressive politics, etc.), yes ?

If that is indeed the case, is there a precise and relevant difference (other than mere perception and opinion) between following the tenets of one delusion while ridiculing another?

[mike_c]

76. a bit of a rhetorical trap, that....

I suppose one might argue that all life is illusion, and therefore that no thoughts or actions are ever really justified. However, if we do think and act we might as well try to do it as rationally as we can.

Some belief systems are inherently-- and obviously-- irrational. Demonstrating their irrationality is trivial because they are inconsistent with observations. They require "faith" to conceal their irrationality.

Those should be the easiest illusions of all to dispense with because they carry the seeds of their own destruction-- if you look at them closely enough, they fall apart all by themselves. Their continued existence depends upon ignorance, upon our NOT looking too closely at their core tenets.

Your broader point is a good one, however-- I interpret it to mean that none of us should be too smug about our notions of what's real or what's important. It IS possible to dismiss the patently absurd-- and I place most religious nonsense in that category, obviously. It's the paradigms that apparently make sense that we have to constantly test and re-evaluate.

I try to approach my own beliefs as analytically as I can. I'm not always successful. If christians would do the same-- use analysis as a tool for living rather than "faith," then I think we'd have fewer disputes with one another. And yes, I do realize that one can turn that argument on its head by noting that I have faith in a rational, analytical approach, but that's just circular and does nothing to advance discussion, so all it really amounts to is dismissal.

[LanternWaste]

79. If faith is simply...

"They require "faith" to conceal their irrationality."

If faith is simply a trust in that of which we do not have full knowledge, it would appear to me that faith is required for any and all belief systems, regardless of whether one's personal opinion is that they are valid and rational beliefs, or absurd notions

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, depending on where one sits, I suppose....


On Edit: I was not attempting to set any traps, rhetorical or otherwise-- in either this response-post or my previous one. Just wondering why we adhere so tightly to some imaginary delusions, yet loudly advertise our derision for others...

[Zhade]

141. "If faith is simply a trust in that of which we do not have full knowledge"

Ah, but that's not the definition of faith - plus, it's begging the question that there's something that exists which we lack knowledge in, which is an unproven premise.

Faith is the belief in thing for which there is no evidence.

[Terran]

97. Forgive my butting in, but you're saying you can disprove

the existence of god(s)?

Some belief systems are inherently-- and obviously-- irrational. Demonstrating their irrationality is trivial because they are inconsistent with observations. They require "faith" to conceal their irrationality.

Those should be the easiest illusions of all to dispense with because they carry the seeds of their own destruction-- if you look at them closely enough, they fall apart all by themselves. Their continued existence depends upon ignorance, upon our NOT looking too closely at their core tenets.

I was under the impression that the existence of God or god was not possible to either prove or disprove. But you appear to have a way to do that? Just because you find the idea "irrational" doesn't mean it's impossible. Rationality is a relative thing. And I'm not talking about people's various and sundry notions and beliefs about what God is based on some book; I'm referring to the objective existence of such a being/thing.

[ZombieHorde]

203. Hi.

I was under the impression that the existence of God or god was not possible to either prove or disprove.

What gave you that impression?

[AntiFascist]

128. There is something about Christianity that you might appreciate...

Christ represented a significant threat to the status quo of his time, that is why he got crucified. The idea that people could break the shackles of their government via a "spiritual kingdom" that was more powerful than the goverment was revolutionary for its time. Christ also had some positive things to say about Caesar, who ended up on the side of representative government.

[Zhade]

140. If they did, christianity would collapse under the weight of the lack of evidence.

NT!

[Dorian Gray]

213. But why should people have solely analytical approaches to life?

I like living intuitively much of the time. I enjoy expressing my emotions and opinions without always having to have statistical analysis to back my thoughts up.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

16. I agree. n/t

[chiefofclarinet]

32. There is no one monolithic group called Christianity

Like any large group of people, Christianity is broken up into many much smaller groups of people that may or may not agree on certain issues.

A good analogy is the Democratic party. There are the far left members, bordering on true socialism. They violently disagree with the DLC centrists on many issues. There is also the converted Republicans that have seen the light, and those that leave for third parties or due to apathy.

However, the Republican image of the Democrat as a "tax and spend liberal" that wants to impose "gayness" on humanity and give abortions to everyone is about as accurate as the image of Christian as a hyperreligious, Jesus-worshiping hypocrite that believes anyone who believes anything beyond what he or she says is going straight to eternal damnation.

[Odin2005]

15. I don't respect ANY religious belief, period. n/t

[chiefofclarinet]

33. Please elaborate

There is a difference between believing a religious belief and respecting it. As a Methodist, I disagree with a lot that the Catholic Church, the various sects of Islam, the various sects of Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, the different types of pagan beliefs, and atheists, but I respect their religious beliefs because they have different opinions.

What I wonder is why you don't respect different, or any, beliefs is something religious.

[Odin2005]

47. I don't respect religious beliefs for the same reason I don't respect other BS beliefs.

I get annoyed when the apologists for religion put religion on a pedistal that one cannot criticize.

As MikeC said, it's all delusional anyway. Belief in some big sky daddy strikes me as insanity.

[Dorian Gray]

45. Not even Norse mytholigical belief?

Your namesake would be disappointed. :)

[Odin2005]

46. LOL, just because they are good stories doesn't mean I should take them as fact.

:P :)

[LatteLibertine]

18. I think

most of us fully realize there are decent Christians out there who walk the walk. Yes, I know a few.

Honestly, when religion feeds empathy, charity, integrity and justice I have zero problems with it. I am extremely tolerant of Christians of that stripe.

I treat them with empathy, compassion, dignity and respect. I do my best to avoid the more negative ones who use the label. If I encounter some of these sorts perpetuating injustice I will firmly and politely stand up to them. Anyone who has read Frederick Douglass' narrative will know he said these types were some of his most brutal masters. This has to do with dehumanization of the other and I will simply leave it at that.

One thing that does disturb me about some Christians is that they assume if you are agnostic or even atheistic that you have no real moral values. I know plenty of people that fall into those categories that do their best to live by the "golden rule".

[Rainbowreflect]

21. The idea that you have to be religious to be moral is idiotic.

Some of the most moral people I know are atheist and some of the most immoral people I have known flaunt the religion all the time.

[LatteLibertine]

25. Usually

my friendships with religious folks do not last because invariably then end up wanting to "recruit" or "save" me. That statement is not solely directed at Christians and includes other groups. I understand when their motivation is genuine it is not malicious. I am unwilling to subscribe to beliefs I do not truly hold even superficially for acceptance, friendship or approval.

I consider myself agnostic even though I deeply feel there is no "God" or supernatural force that created and governs us. I do not declare myself an atheist because I feel I can not know these things for certain.

I do not believe in God or love. Now I know some are thinking what was that last part? To fully explain myself I would need to fashion a huge post grounded in; philosophy, psychology, biology and history. At this time I am unwilling to do that because regardless of what I say folks will believe what they wish.

I do believe practicing and promoting things like; empathy, compassion, inclusion, tolerance and justice.

[youthere]

55. As someone who normally steers clear of these kinds of threads...

I could not agree with you more.

I think we ALL know decent Christians who "walk the walk"...but I also think those people would still be decent, kind, and compassionate people with or without the "Christian" moniker.
Of all the people I know, it seems like the atheists and agnostics (with some exceptions of course) are better at living so-called "Christian principles" than the vast majority of self-proclaimed Christians.

[Zhade]

144. They would be. That's the irony.

NT!

[Chulanowa]

20. Even the "good" Christians make me a little paranoid

They may be better-behaved, but they still follow the same theology as the crazy angry ones. One cannot be a christian without believing that every single human on earth is born caked in sin because of the crime of a mythical antedilluvian ancestor, and is doomed to an eternity of suffering apart from god unless they put every ounce of their available faith into worship of a political radical murdered by the Romans in the early first century, who is apparently the result of that same god that cursed every last human to eternal doom, coming and getting it on with a virgin chick who was around 15 years old. Even the good christians believe that eventually god will "Call us home" or visit us with "judgment day" probably just after thelast person on earth "hears the news" and hopefully converts to this theological model.

Believe what you want. If you do it well, props to you. But I'm going to find it hard to trust people who believe mankind is inherently evil unless we give sufficient asskissing to the god who made us that way, who according to the User's Guide will wipe out 2/3 of us all anyway.

[chiefofclarinet]

29. The belief that all Christians believe all of this is a myth.

To begin, there is no "unified" group of Christians. Modern Christianity is a bunch of loosely aggregated, squabbling sects of people. The ones you hear about are the crazy evangelical, fundamentalist whackos. However, there are sects of Christianity that address every issue you mention and favor sanity.

First, the belief that the mother of Jesus was virgin. That was supposed to be a quote from the prophet Isaiah thrown into the Gospel of Matthew to give some legitimacy to Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah. However, the Greek translation of Isaiah misinterpreted "young woman" as "virgin." So, many Christians, especially the mainline Protestants, do not believe in the "Virgin Mary," because that quote was written due to a mistranslation.

Second, not all of us worship Jesus of Nazareth as a God. That is the Catholics (who elevate him to part of the Trinity, which I still don't understand after 13 years of Catholic education...) and the fundamentalist whackos who call him God. In particular, the Unitarian Christians do not call Jesus any more of a god than the Jewish people call Moses a god or Democrats call Barack Obama a god. They consider him a good man, but nothing more. Most of the good Christians follow Jesus of Nazareth's words, not worship him.

Third, many mainline Christians don't believe in the second coming. This insane belief was first proclaimed by Paul of Tarsus, who to me is the prototype of the crazy Republican fundamentalist "Christian," and by the author of the Book of Revelation. Both men had the belief that Jesus of Nazareth was coming ~100 CE, and that time was literally running out. Since the world still exists at 2008 CE, they were wrong.

Fourth, original sin is a (mostly) Catholic interpretation of Genesis 3. Reading the actual passage shows that these two mythical (and most Christians and Jews realize this is a myth) people were not tempted by the devil, but by a hyper-intelligent snake.

Fifth, the idea of hell is attacked by a small group of Christians called Universalists. They believe that an all-loving God would not condemn anyone to eternal punishment, so all of humanity is "saved."

Anyways, I'm not trying to convince you that all of Christianity is logical; it isn't. What I'm saying is that there are people (and I would call myself one) that have grappled with the insanity of "Christianity" of fundies and have salvaged a sensible set of beliefs to call his or her own.

[Bill McBlueState]

56. It seems like you can believe almost anything

and call yourself a Christian. That's one reason that discussions of religion can be so frustrating.

[muriel_volestrangler]

195. I disagree with one paragraph of yours

Second, not all of us worship Jesus of Nazareth as a God. That is the Catholics (who elevate him to part of the Trinity, which I still don't understand after 13 years of Catholic education...) and the fundamentalist whackos who call him God. In particular, the Unitarian Christians do not call Jesus any more of a god than the Jewish people call Moses a god or Democrats call Barack Obama a god. They consider him a good man, but nothing more. Most of the good Christians follow Jesus of Nazareth's words, not worship him.

Not just the Catholics and 'fundamentalist whackos'. It's pretty much all Christians except Unitarians that do regard him as God, in some form. Your own Methodist denomination, for instance, or Anglicans, or Orthodox churches.

After all, 'Christ' means 'anointed'. Pretty much by definition, a Christian has to regard Jesus as more than just 'a good man'. The Unitarians push the definition to its limit. And their numbers, world-wide, are small. If you think that 'most of the good Christians' don't worship Jesus, then you're cutting down the total of 'good Christians' to a very small number.

[knitter4democracy]

198. Not all of us have the same definition of Original Sin.

There are literally thousands and thousands of Christian denominations (sects) that fall into a few big, basic categories. You have the Eastern Orthodox (the church I'm a part of) as the more mystic wing of the Church that still worships and practices the same way we did over a thousand years ago. Then you have the RCC, the more logic-based wing of the Church that has added a lot to the basics fo the faith ever since the Great Schism. The Protestants came out of the RCC, so they do share a lot of the same theology with big differences. In the Protestants, you have liberals, evangelicals, fundamentalists, and pentecostals, all of whom differ quite a bit from each other. Then you have the Unitarians, who aren't like any of the others, and Christianity-based religions that most others wouldn't count as Christian, like the Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, and Christian Scientists, most of whom came about in the 1800s.

It used to be that if you believed in the Nicene Creed, you were a Christian. The Catholics changed it, the Protestants used that version, and now you have many Christians who would argue with many parts of the Creed.

As for your last statement, we Orthodox do not believe that mankind is inherently evil. Just the opposite. Always have.

[madamesilverspurs]

23. I share your gratitude

for those people who live their faith, for whom the object of their devotion is more than a mere advertising gimmick. If they have to keep telling us what 'good Christians' they are, they ain't got it. Giant pulpits with big microphones are useful for getting people to send you money, but that can't and never will compare to the effective and powerful simplicity of "let your light so shine..."

[Rainbowreflect]

24. One of my favorite quotes is from Saint Francis.

"Preach the Gospel continually and use words only when absolutely necessary."

[LWolf]

26. I haven't found

humility, empathy, compassion, selflessness, and love to be traits owned by Christians or christianity. I've met many people, from a wide variety of belief systems, including atheists, who share those traits.

I agree that, evident in the small record we have of his life, Christ, like many other prophets, tried to instill these traits in his followers.

[chiefofclarinet]

30. Yes, Jesus of Nazareth was a good role model

However, a large majority of his "followers" do not really understand who he is. They try to twist the man into a version of themselves, which largely doesn't work. If Christians followed what Jesus of Nazareth said, the religion would be much better.

[LWolf]

34. It would be. nt

[Qibing Zero]

75. For the people of two thousand years ago, yes.

Nowadays, he would rightfully be laughed off DU for a lot of his views.

[Zhade]

142. In a number of ways, jesus was kind of a petty douchebag.

I mean, if he even existed (remember boys and girls, Josephus was a forgery).

[spoony]

177. Lol, do you also light shit on fire on your neighbours' porches?

I'm just wondering how far your juvenile shock-value behaviour goes. Maybe lighting a bag of shit would require too much effort compared to logging on here, eh?

[Zhade]

179. I'm not going to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

NT!

[spoony]

181. Wow, thanks for the trip back to the eighties, lol.

Let me know when you plan on breaking out the "I'm rubber you're glue" routine, I'll bring my MC Hammer pants.

[Zhade]

184. Hey, the classics still work.

Excepting the Hammer pants, of course. Those never worked.

[spoony]

189. I MADE them work.

The gleaming fabric catching the reflection of a pulsating light machine...ahhh.

[helderheid]

31. I think you'll find many of those Christians here. There are Christians, and there are hypochistians

[chiefofclarinet]

39. I've said this before, but in a different way

There are Christians and "Jesus freaks." They are not the same.

Christians believe in the words and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, called the Christ.
Jesus freaks believe in what their Sunday school teaching said this Jesus guy is.

But, yeah, there are a lot of Christians here. There are a lot of Jesus freaks in Free Republic. Another reason it is nicer here; much less hypocrites.

[spoony]

38. What have we learned?

Take it from me, Rainbowreflect, I have seen threads like this many, many times. It always goes the same way. If you try to defend any Christians, or if you say you're a liberal Christian, they still don't like you and will never, ever admit any Christians are any good. Oh they might be good but it's in spite of their beliefs, somehow--don't exactly know how it works and don't ask because they don't either.

Either that or you're trying to assert that only religious people are any good, which deeply offends them even when you didn't actually say that.

Or they say liberal Christians aren't doing enough to take back their religion, though if you say that about Muslims you're a right-wing racist bastard.

Not that it matters if they did take back their religion because they find even liberal believers creepy, stupid, etc. and don't trust them or feel comfortable near them.

Or they just dispense with any rationalisations--nonsense though they are--and belch out that all religious belief is crazy anyway. Why say that? Because it's apparently some sort of Pavlovian thing. They cannot pass up a religion thread, or anything even remotely related to religion, without such ejaculatory statements.

In short, your post was good but those who need to heed it will not. Ever.

[JNelson6563]

42. I'll give you this

You've got the cross-dragging thing down.

Julie

[Rainbowreflect]

50. There seem to be two main type of people on DU who are

anti-Christian. The first I understand and respect are those who have been attacked by the Church for who they are or what they stand for.
Then there are those who are so sure of their belief that anyone who has any religious faith is childish or crazy that they will belittle all people of faith. To me they are just the flip side of the fundies.

[nosillies]

81. Your last sentence says it all

The world is full of jackasses who think they are absolutely right, and that anyone who disagrees is mentally defective, delusional, must be stopped, etc. You find plenty of them in jihadist camps, in Baptist churches, and posting on this thread.

[lukasahero]

51. "liberal Christians aren't doing enough"

And if you were doing more, you'd be "forcing your beliefs" on others. :(

Right there with you, spoony. I knew before I finished reading the OP how this thread would go.

[Sophree]

64. So true.

They just can't seem to help themselves- maybe the knee-jerk Christian bashers should ask themselves why that is. Just a suggestion.

[mudesi]

74. Ignorance is ignorance

Do you believe a man floated into the sky over 2000 years ago, after having been raised from the dead?

If you do, you're believing something that is not scientifically possible, period. You're believing it despite knowing this.

You're not only ignorant, but you're willfully ignorant.

If that's not something to be concerned about, I don't know what is. There is no denying that ignorance is the root of pretty much all of the problems in this world. It leads to hate, it leads to oppression, it leads to war. Meanwhile the wealthy at the very top exploit that ignorance to keep their power.

Religion is the greatest sham perpetrated by the powerful elite in the history of humankind.

[spoony]

102. Look who it is, exhibit A.

Ta for illustrating my point, but I suggest you get a new tune. And it wasn't over 2000 years ago, it was slightly less than 2000 years ago :)

[Zhade]

143. Nah, we just don't like their beliefs. I find the OP to be a very kind person.

I just think it's a waste of time to believe uncorroborated mythology actually happened.

By the way, doesn't your alleged savior need the cross you keep climbing on?

[CAG]

166. Wow, so uncalled for... you're just acting quite petty. Their are freepers

over in freeperland who have more respect for people and their beliefs than you do.

Skinners rules over and over again describe how, while debate, arguments, disagreements are fully welcome, fellow DUer's should be treated with respect, their BELIEFS should be treated with respect, no name calling, etc. Yet time and time again, people of faith say one freakin thing about their judiasm, christianity, etc, and then two or three DUer's start ridiculing every stinking time. I would LOVE to see if the other coin ever happens, because I sure haven't seen it.

[Zhade]

180. I'm trying to understand where you got the idea that we're required to respect anyone's beliefs.

We're not.

Stating my opinion that religion is nonsense and a monumental waste of one's time isn't against the rules, no matter how much you might wish it were.

[Rainbowreflect]

197. I am confused, if religion is such a waste of one's time why

do you spend so much time on a thread dealing with religion?

[CAG]

218. How bout here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

"With regard to religion (or the lack thereof), Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, and others. All are welcome here. For this reason, we expect members to make an extra effort to be sensitive to different religious beliefs, and to show respect to members who hold different religious beliefs. Members are welcome to discuss whether they agree or disagree with particular religious beliefs, but they are expected to do so in a relatively sensitive and respectful manner. As a general rule, discussions about ideas are usually permitted, but broad-brush bigoted statements about groups of people — either religious or non-religious — are not. If you are easily offended by discussions about religious beliefs, or if you take pleasure from offending or ridiculing people with different beliefs, or if you consider progressive people with different beliefs to be your enemy or your inferior, do not participate in religious discussions on Democratic Underground."

[ZombieHorde]

204. I hate that kind of crap.

If you are going to tell everyone how it ends then you need to put "spoiler alert" in the subject line.


(please understand that I am making a joke)

[eridani]

41. Your minister is more of a "normal" Christian than the End Times whackjobs n/t

[raccoon]

48. That kind of Xian I like. The kind I can't stand are the fundy, evangelizing, and often

hateful kind.

The kind that comes up to you, a total stranger, and asks, "Are you saved?"

The kind that thinks they're better than you because they're saved and you're not.

THe kind that thinks everything THEY believe is absolutely 100% right and any other religion or belief is 100% wrong.

Their hubris and arrogance are unbelievable.

[David Ippolito]

52. JesusLand (The Song)

A song about a special brand of HYPOCRISY in America

http://www.thatguitarman.com/MP3/jesusland.mp3

[noel711]

54. Hi Rainbow... when I read your OP, I could predict how it would unfold...

Like your minister, I am a progressive, feminist, liberationist
pastor. I face a lot of crap from both side of the fence:
from conservatives who scream that I'm damned to hell because
the Bible says women can't be pastors,
and from some progressives who claim I'm an idiot because
I believe.

Both sides are extreme, narrow, and yet voices of our diverse country.

I firmly believe that progressives are the future of this nation,
and hope that real progressives allow others freedoms:
freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of sexuality,
and freedom to believe what they want.. as long as these freedoms
do not infringe on the freedoms of others.

I've heard from countless members of DU that I'm not doing enough
to wrestle Christianity from the fundies.
But if I were to take a stance that everyone had to believe the same
as I do, I'd be no better than they are.
Anytime we say that everyone has to march in line in the same parade
then we're just like the conservatives....

And frankly, how do they know I'm not doing my part? They don't...

Hang in there Rainbow, we appreciate your point of view,
and your witness to change.... change comes in many ways,
thru many voices.

[Rainbowreflect]

63. Thank you!

[ZombieHorde]

205. And frankly, how do they know I'm not doing my part?

We have been group stalking you for years and we know what you are up to. That's right, we saw you pick your nose.


(joke post)

[Steely_Dan]

59. They sound...

like wonderful people. I know similar people. However, they are not Christian.

You see, I am of the belief that you don't have to be a Christian to be a "good" person."

-P

[SidDithers]

61. You can be any kind of Christian you want...

as long as your faith doesn't interfere in the workings of government.

Sid

[Sophree]

62. Thanks for your post

I've been a Christian for about 5 or 6 years now and it's not something that was ever forced upon me- it's something that cannot be explained, except that it's amazing and trasformational. But there are many things in this world that can't be explained. As my faith has grown, I've seen and realized many incredible things- evidence, to me, that God is working in my life. And that's all that matters.

I've been told by fellow Christians that I "can't be too liberal" if I'm serving the Lord. I've been told by atheists that I am delusional or that I believe in sky fairies, not just in this thread, but in others. My response to both is that they just don't know me!

I'm liberal, I'm a Christian. I don't consider myself religious. I try to walk the walk every day. I gain strength from my God and my faith. I do the best I can.

There are people who abuse religion to push their own political agendas, or abuse it for their own glory- money, power. But I've also seen that these people eventually all fall, one way or another.

I don't believe that atheists are bad people, as some so-called Christians do. My brother and his wife are atheists and they are the sweetest, most moral and ethical people I know.

Sometimes it feels like us Christian liberals are battling on two fronts and it can get discouraging, but don't give up, Rainbow! The Democratic Part needs us and so does the church.

:hug:

[Rainbowreflect]

65. Thank you.

[CitizenPatriot]

70. isn't this the oldest argument ever?

rationalists say believers are crazy
extremists say rationalists are evil

A progressive would step outside of the labels and use their many senses, along with their mental faculties, to make observations and come to their own conclusions.

The first, that we can all agree upon, is that only an ignorant person thinks they know everything. Thus, all is possible.
The second, we respect others rights to believe what they choose to believe, so long as it doesn't infringe on our rights and stays out of government.

It is my personal belief that there is great joy in connecting with others, with the universe, with our humanity. The human need for this often translates to organized religion. Organized religion is run by humans, and subject to our faults. This is exacerbated by the propensity of groups of people to sink to the lowest common denominator. This doesn't negate the power of organized religion to possibly serve for the good.

The endless gifts in nature uplift. Community song connects. Service, such as volunteer work, connects us to one another. These things are spiritual, and the spiritual is just as important to our development as the mental and emotional. Excellence in all three leads to a well rounded person. To contemplate the wonder of nature and of things unproven is often perceived as the next step, after rationalism. Of course, this kind of spirituality is not in conflict with science, but rather serves as an addition. Throughout time, man has looked for meaning and connection. Many different faiths or belief systems were created from these needs.

What is the sense in knocking those needs? It's human. Hate the end result, but not the inclination. To knock the desire of another person to connect with their spiritual side -- to make sense of things that are unpredictable, to find comfort-- is a pointless position, as you will never win an argument with human nature.

The highest human knowledge is knowledge about knowledge itself; in this light, the theoretical study of human knowledge, which Aristotle called "contemplation," is the highest human ability and happiness. Arete; excellence in mental, spiritual and physical fitness.

[Sophree]

77. Yes, it is.

Human connection, service and friendship are spiritual, you're right. Good point about the progressive action being- stepping back from the labels, searching for truth wherever one may find it. That's what I've tried to do.

I don't know if you were referring to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, but I also agree with you that a recognition of the need for a healthy spiritual life is a sign of maturity and well-rounded person:

"Self-actualization is the summit of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It is the quest of reaching one's full potential as a person. Unlike lower level needs, this need is never fully satisfied; as one grows psychologically there are always new opportunities to continue to grow.

Self-actualized people tend to have needs such as:

Truth
Justice
Wisdom
Meaning
Self-actualized persons have frequent occurrences of peak experiences, which are energized moments of profound happiness and harmony. According to Maslow, only a small percentage of the population reaches the level of self-actualization."

http://www.abraham-maslow.com/m_motivation/Hierarchy_of_Needs.asp

Doesn't sound so bad! :-)

[CitizenPatriot]

85. No, it doens't sound too bad

I wasn't referring only to Maslow's theory, but I am very glad you reminded me of the specifics of his theory. :-) It's been a while since I read him and I always enjoyed it. It seems like all of the great psychologists, humanists, writers, etc have made similar observations about humans.

Profound moments of happiness and harmony; It's good for you.

[Sophree]

88. A yes,

Spiritual joy and peace, nothing can compare!

[ZombieHorde]

207. moments of profound happiness and harmony - small percentage of the population

He just described a good orgasm. It seems logical to me that many many people have experienced good orgasms.

[nosillies]

82. Best post on subject EVER

:applause:

[CitizenPatriot]

84. aw, geeze...I'm blushing

:hi: :hi: :hi:
thanks:-)

[Sophree]

87. Amen!

I'll second that!

[ZombieHorde]

206. only an ignorant person thinks they know everything

Does this mean that God is ignorant?

Thus, all is possible.

How do you know?

is a pointless position, as you will never win an argument with human nature

Would it still be pointless if you had no intention on winning the argument?

The highest human knowledge is knowledge about knowledge itself

How do you know?

[mudesi]

72. It doesn't mean they're not delusional

Yes, there are "good" christians, but that doesn't mean religion itself is not harmful overall. It is based on ignorance, and ignorance is always a bad thing.

If somebody believes the sun revolves around the Earth, or that the Earth is flat, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that person doesn't deserve my respect.

The same goes for people who deny evolution or believe dinosaurs existed with humans. "But those are fundamentalists", you might reply.

Well, the same goes for people who believe a man rose from the dead and ascended into the sky, despite biology and gravity.

The same goes for people who believe a small wafer actually transforms into the body of a man who died over 2000 years ago every single Sunday at mass.

Ignorance is ignorance, no matter what the degree.

[noel711]

78. Ah, but Lynard, you assume all who believe... believe the same things..

And we don't...Christianity is diverse in theology and mission,
like most great faith expressions...

Many Christians believe Gay people are damned to hell.
And many of us believe they are entitled to the full banquet of life,
including marriage, family, and all human rights.

Many Christians deny evolution; and many of us are educated,
enlightened human beings who uphold evolution, stem cell research,
and full reproductive rights.

Many Christians use the Bible as a weapon with which to beat up those
who don't believe as they do.
And many of us see the Bible as an ancient book with outdated beliefs,
but full of wisdom for the present and the future, just as the Koran,
the Baghavad Vita brim full of ancient wisdom.

Many christians 'literally' believe in the resurrection,
and many of us see it as a metaphor for the victory of life over death
in any setting... like how aparthaid was overcome in South Africa,
or how Barack Obama was elected president in a country nurtured in the roots
of slavery. Resurrection happens... maybe not like the literalists say,
but life continues in the face of death.

And many churches do NOT believe that bread/wine actually becomes flesh/blood,
but that is becomes a transformative meal that unites a community to common
purpose of justice and peace. The communion is a promise of the great feast that
humanity could become.. if all people become committed to justice and peace.

Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder; the purpose of any philosphical/theological
belief is that humankind is more than an advanced form of animal.. but capable
of glorious things.. and with that knowledge that we can accomplish many great things
for this world when we are united in common purpose.

Yes, brutal, evil has been committed in the name of religion,
but so has greatness. I will not defend the spanish inquisition,
the oppressions of the roman catholic church nor the puritans
whose narrow repressions still echo in the USA, nor will I defend
the churches who used scripture to justify slavery or oppression of
women. WE must move beyond our past...

There'd be no public education if not for the reformation,
before that, education was in the hands of the catholic church.

There'd be no human rights without the religious furvor of
Jesus Christ (who saw value, goodness, and redemption in everyone,
including women, the outcast, and the mentally disabled)...
And in Desmond Tutu, Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King,
Mother Theresa... I don't consider any of these folks ignorant.

Life isn't simple; nothing is black or white. There are benefits,
and conflicts in every person, and in every movement. We must be committed
to accept the goodness and benefits present in people and movements,
and sift thru that which can be corrected.

[Homer Wells]

89. What Noel Said!!!!

:fistbump:

[Zhade]

149. Yeah, but you all believe in 1) a god and 2) jesus rose from the dead.

Neither are established facts with evidence to support them.

[bobbolink]

118. And we can all call everyone else whom we disagree with "Delusional"

This is what the RW has done to us for over 30 years now... are you enjoying it?

You want to follow in their footsteps?

[mudesi]

120. I don't "disagree" with facts

It is physically impossible for a man to defy gravity and rise into the sky. If you believe something like that is possible, then yes, you are delusional.

The religious people in this forum are going to have to learn to accept that.

[bobbolink]

121. And what YOU have to "accept" is that you can't "prove" there isn't.

What you also have to accept is that many of us have had it with the derision from the RW, and refuse to take it from those who supposedly are "on our side".

If you can't have a modicum of respect for others, then recognize that you are doing the same things that have been done to liberals for 30 years.

You become part of the problem.

ACCEPT THAT.

[mudesi]

133. I can't prove what isn't?

First of all, it's completely illogical to prove the non-existence of something, even though I don't know what you're talking about in the subject line.

Secondly, there is nothing derisive or disrespectful about bringing to attention one's ignorance. Religious people tend to take it very personally when I tell them that it's impossible for a man to float without any kind of device designed to counter the force of gravity. Witness your reply, and the replies of a few others in this thread. That's a psychological problem that you they have to come to terms with, not me.

I understand that it's a similar response to when a child first learns that there is no Santa Clause, but because it has been ingrained for so long in one's psyche, may be much more painful.

But I refuse to keep silent in the face of ignorance, period. I will not stand by and watch as people willfully delude themselves. It is the source of all that is wrong on this planet. I make no apologies.

Jesus did not walk on water. Moses did not part the sea. Noah did not put two of every animal in an ark. Mary did not give birth without being inseminated somehow. To claim otherwise in any of those things would be to claim something impossible happened. Deal with it.

[Zhade]

152. Hear, hear.

NT!

[Zhade]

151. Make him.

Seriously, you think you can ORDER people to respect your mythological nonsense?

:rofl:

The burden of proof is on you for asserting these myths are real, not us for not buying into them.

[ZombieHorde]

210. Your crazy, your RW, your crazy, your RW, Bwahahahahaha!

Hail Eris

[Zhade]

148. I have to disagree. The person deserves respect. Their crazy belief? Not even.

NT!

[Greyhound]

80. Conflating the decent individual with an incorrigible institution does not

validate the institution.

There are decent individuals within even the most heinous organizations.

The blind subservience to a non-existent super-being always leads to inhuman actions at the direction of the organization. Witness the misery and suffering inflicted on most of the planet simply because of the Xian directive requiring unrestrained breeding in order to fill the pews and coffers.

[bobbolink]

109. Sorry you feel that way.

I"m very sorry my "blind subservience" is a block to our friendship.

It's funny... it would never occur to me to criticize you in this manner.

Why do YOU feel the need?

I'm going to edit this to say.... Elton John called for all Christians to be killed. I suppose you don't consider that INHUMAN????

[Greyhound]

115. I have no problem with you believing anything you want to. If it helps you get through, that

is fine, and I don't judge you based on the actions of the organization you belong to. However, I do judge that organization based on it's actions and they have been detrimental to the human race for well over a thousand years.

In fact, one of the the most brilliant people I've ever met is a former Catholic priest that left the church with a dispensation from the Pope (IIRC, one of only 5 people to do so) in order to marry the woman he loved. He remained strong in his faith and we enjoyed many, many of the most fulfilling, heated, awful, and wonderful conversations in my life over a broad range of topics. I can honestly say that he changed my life and I hope I made an impression on him. None of that changes what the church has done to humanity.

As for Elton John's call for Xians being killed, if he acted on it I would support his punishment for those acts (no death penalty under any circumstances, but that's another issue).

That said, Elton John, as far as I know, does not constitute an authority nor does he have over a billion followers that have sworn to follow his edicts as the infallible spokesperson of The Lord God like say, The Pope. He is not telling his followers, if they exist, to breed themselves into abject suffering and lives of deprivation just so he can be assured of future followers that will perpetuate his opulent status and unrivaled power over them.

As I stated, the fact that there are good Xians, and there are many, does not excuse the horrors committed by the church throughout the ages, any more than the fact that decent Republiks, for they too exist, in no way excuse the crimes of Idiot Frat Boy and his cabal.

With love.

[bobbolink]

117. Then don't judge me.

"The blind subservience to a non-existent super-being always leads to inhuman actions at the direction of the organization."

I've not done anything any more "inhuman" than you have, and I resent your categorizing my beliefs in such belittling terms.... I don't do that to you, and I don't accept it for myself.

The name-calling and judgmentalism against one group of people here at DU has become waaay out of control, and needs to stop.

[Greyhound]

131. I didn't unless of course you are the church.

If your church told you that you had to turn in any person you know that doesn't follow doctrine knowing that they will be taken and tortured to death, would you do it?

I'm guessing you would not, but churches have done just this countless times in the past. Look at Islamic societies for example, even those outside the ME.

You are a woman, is it right that you are valued less than I because I have a 'Y' chromosome? According to all of the big 3 religions, you are less than I for just this "reason".

That is what I judge, not you.

[Zhade]

154. Stating the fact that you believe in unsupported myths isn't name-calling.

NT!

[muriel_volestrangler]

196. When did Elton John say that?

I suspect never - since he'd get arrested for it in Britain, anyway. I bet you are distorting what he said (such as "I would ban religion completely"

[old mark]

83. I was born into a christian religion, and educated in religious

schools through highschool and for one year of college.

I have no use for religious people of any stripe.

Go do something good for the poor or suffering people of the world, not sit on your fat ass telling me how good you are.

mark

[noel711]

93. Mark said:..............

"Go do something good for the poor or suffering people of the world, not sit on your fat ass telling me how good you are."

Which is precisely what Jesus taught....

Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the poor, and the sick...

Those who sit on their behinds... are not following the way.

Those who preach about their personal qualities
are what Jesus confronted..

[ZombieHorde]

211. I have no use for religious people of any stripe.

I have a use for them.

[Pastiche423]

86. There are good, kind, caring people that are atheists

I've known many in my lifetime. They are not that way because of fear of a vengeful god. They are that way because it is right.

To the xtrian complainers in this thread, if you need to believe that there is an invisable man up above the clouds, a man that knows and sees all, a man that diddled w/Mary to produce a child, a man that for thousands of years has caused wars, famine and oppression, then by all means, go ahead.

But don't expect everyone else to buy into your fantasy. You don't want "dissenters" on this thread? Then take it to the religion forum, where it belongs.

[Rainbowreflect]

90. Please point out to me where I said I did not want "dissenters".

I have no problem with listening/reading other's opinions. I do find it interesting that many of the "religion haters" have pictures of people who's religion is an important part of who they are; such as Dennis Kucinich and Ted Kennedy, in their posts.

[Pastiche423]

91. You really do need to slow down and...

READ

Where in my post did I say, Rainbowreflect does not want "dissenters"?

[Rainbowreflect]

92. Well, you replied to my original post with...

"But don't expect everyone else to buy into your fantasy. You don't want "dissenters" on this thread? Then take it to the religion forum, where it belongs."

[Pastiche423]

94. You can;t comprehend what you read

I prefaced my comment w/:

"To the xtrian complainers in this thread,"

[Rainbowreflect]

99. Have you ever tried saying "I was not replying to you with that

comment" instead of flinging more insults?
I can read just fine, but what I was responding to was a separate paragraph with a separate message, as I read it.
I do not feel the need to insult everyone I disagree with or who disagrees with me. I find it makes my life easier, but that's just me.

[Pastiche423]

100. Why should I?

I had already prefaced who I meant.

Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution. Persecution.

Give it up, already.

I am sick of it and will say so anytime it's brought up on a General Discussion forum!

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mudesi]

105. There's your problem right there

Who here has not been civil? Give me a link. Who says anybody who has replied in this thread "abhors" christians? What is your definition of "kindness"? Do you want us to agree with you? Do you want us to believe what you believe, even though what you believe is utterly false?

Your problem seems to be that you take others' statements of truth as an attack. That seems to be the problem of many religious people. They can't take it that their beliefs have already been disproved by science.

[Pastiche423]

124. Stop w/your fucking xtrian persecution bullshit!

No, I have not been to the religion forum. I do not like discussing religion. But if it appears on the General Discussion forum, I will speak my mind!

The religion forum is where this thread belongs.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

132. Do I feel persecuted? Not at all, but do I feel annoyed? Yes

I'm annoyed at being caricatured based on someone's experiences with right-wing fundies, right-wing Catholics, or Mormons.

I'm annoyed at having beliefs ascribed to me that I do not hold.

I'm annoyed at being treated as if it's news to me that the world wasn't created in 7 days.

I'm annoyed at being told that an important part of my life is "the source of all wars."

I'm annoyed at people who have never had a genuine religious experience telling me that there's no such thing.

I'm annoyed at narrow-minded people who would reject allies who accept most of the values they do.

I'm annoyed at people who go on and on about how religious people are persecuting them, when in seven years on DU, I have never seen anyone initiate an attack on atheists.

I'm annoyed at people who go on mindlessly repeating slogans like "Tax the churches" when they would never want their own pet non-profit taxed, and because they are so ignorant that they think all churches are like the megachurches, when the majority of churches are poor and struggling and subject to strict financial oversight by their parent bodies.

There are many great atheists here on DU (the shining example being Az), but far too many of you act the same way toward Christians that freepers act toward Democrats: rude and ignorant.

[Pastiche423]

134. Keep the fucking xtrian shit in the religion forum where it belongs

and there will be no problem.

I come to DU to discuss politics. If I wanted to discuss religion, I'd either go to the religion forum here or go to a religious web site.

If someone sticks their religion in my face (such as this thread), then I will say whatever I feel about the subject.

I think that is a very fair deal.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

135. I didn't start this thread, and furthermore, people are posting all kinds of

things in GD these days that wouldn't have been allowed there in the past. I think celebrity news and announcements of personal news should be in the Lounge, but increasingly they're turning up in GD.

General means just that, "general."

You're declaring yourself the arbiter of what people may post or not post in GD, and yet, you're reserving to yourself the right to be insulting if you don't like what people post.
Believe or don't believe what you wish, but I don't know of any right not to have people discuss religion in front of you. If the mere mention of religion gets you bent out of shape, then I'd say that you've got an obsession going.
You're free to do what I did during the endless Hillary-Obama threads: not click on something that bores or offends you.

I'm not the enemy. Neither are most of the religious people on DU, whatever other religious people may have done to you.

[CAG]

145. I hope you have the same amount of zeal when someone has the

audacity to post, for instance, that the Alaska senate race and ITS NOT IN THE ALASKA FORUM (the HORROR!!), or for instance, that Prop 8 went the wrong way and ITS NOT POSTED IN THE GLBT FORUM (aauugh, the HORROR!!).

When you become a moderator for this "GENERAL DISCUSSION" forum and get to decide where posts should go, you may want to post all of your restrictive rules so it will save some OP's some of your wrath when they just wanted to put up an otherwise sweet, kind, generous post like this one.

On to another topic (not directed at you)....
For those that don't have a belief in a deity, be it christan, muslim, jew, etc., and keep up with the tired old crap that religion creates all the wars, misery, mayhem, etc. YES!!! Religion has been used to do all of this, WE GET IT!!! However, you might want to ask Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao about this, too, because they're pretty upset that they're not getting their props....

[Zhade]

159. The difference is, the last three didn't do what they did in the name of no-religion.

Meanwhile, hitler was a catholic... which simply means a mass murderer happened to be catholic (and used his religion to promote his mass murder).

[CAG]

170. I certainly doubt that Hitler believed in Jesus Christ as his personal

Lord and Savior, at least not the Jesus Christ that the Gospels describe.

"The difference is, the last three didn't do what they did in the name of no-religion"

I don't know much about Pol Pot, but that statement is entirely false for Stalin and Mao.

[Zhade]

182. Yeah, except for the fact that he, you know, stated it. Repeatedly.

Not that doing so means all christians were horrible people like him, of course. That was my whole point.

And no, it's not false. They did what they did in the name of the state and themselves as the head of that "utopia", not atheism.

[CAG]

201. thats bull; they openly tried to get "religion" out of their country

[ZombieHorde]

212. Your crazy, your RW, your crazy, your RW, Bwahahahahaha!

Hail Eris

[spoony]

173. It's not persecution. I've never called it that. It's just stupid bigotry.

Does that make you feel better?

[Pastiche423]

178. No

[Zhade]

185. It's not bigotry. No one's hating christians for simply being christians.

Well, no one in this thread, at any rate. I know people like that exist out there, but such malice has not been shown here.

[spoony]

188. Splitting hairs must require excellent hand-eye coordination.

But casting asp(aragus) on people then turning around and claiming it's not THEM just their DEEPLY HELD BELIEFS being attacked is so remarkably disingenuous that I cannot think it is anything more than a rhetorical device. Surely you can't actually think that when someone calls all members of a group crazy that it is not ABOUT the members of said group? We don't play these silly games with any other people. We don't say "wow that guy is really racist, but when I call him an asshole I'm calling his beliefs...an asshole...and respecting the guy..." it just sounds ludicrous. When you stomp on what makes people who they are as individuals, don't pretend you aren't stomping on them AS individuals when you're ADDRESSING the actual individuals.

[knitter4democracy]

199. I've seen it on DU before.

I'm just saying, I've seen that kind of hatred here before and been shocked by it. That, I would think, meets the definition of bigotry.

[Zhade]

156. Dude, lugging that cross around has cut off the circulation to your brain.

You. Are. Not. Persecuted.

[spoony]

174. Looks like someone needs a dictionary for Christmas.

We are DISCRIMINATED against here. Not persecuted. If you took less time formulating your tired replies that are apparently supposed to be big zingers or something (and btw, someone already beat you to that line, lol) maybe you could spend more time reading what you're replying TO.

[Fumesucker]

186. Welcome to the club...

Now you know how it feels to be an atheist in the USA, discriminated against.

My personal philosophy of life is violated by the very money in my pocket.

I bet you would not like it if the money in your pocket claimed "There is no God".

[Zhade]

187. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

You've GOT to be kidding me.

:rofl:

No one's keeping you from posting. No one's keeping you from expressing yourself, or voting in DU polls, or refusing your donations, or discriminating against you in any way whatsoever.

It's laughable that your persecution complex has led you to believe such a ridiculous trope.

[spoony]

191. This very thread proves what I'm saying.

Even a liberal Christian cannot say ANYTHING about their beliefs without being shouted down, as I've described. On top of that they have to endure countless threads of guilt-by-association and open hostility. That, I'd say, is "unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice" as can be easily seen by objective, or even honest subjective, eyes. That's the definition of discrimination. Not by those who run the site but by its users, which I obviously meant. There is no realistic defence against this charge, so it's not surprising that your only response is a collection of random insults and dismissive chortling. But one can only abide so much of that in one day, so goodnight.

[lightningandsnow]

95. I've been really lucky to know that kind of Christian, too.

My boyfriend is a pretty devout liberal Christian. His church has been involved in all kind of progressive initiatives, including supporting war resistors from the U.S. who come to Canada. And, he's just a really lovely person. I've had a lot of emotional/family issues lately, and he's totally supported me through all of it. So, yep, despite being a non-religious person myself (Secular Jew/fairly non-practicing Celtic Pagan), I'm in love with a liberal Christian. :)

He told me I should go to his church sometime...I think I'll take him up on that offer.

[hamsterjill]

96. The "realness" of it all

I'm glad to see some "real" Christians finally getting some attention. For eight long years, the extremists have garnered the media and the attention to the point that THEIR view of Christianity has taken on the general meaning for the sum of the beliefs.

Christianity has much more to offer, and where someone is preaching hate, fear and divisiveness, well in my view, they don't understand what Christianity is all about.

I love that Christianity is finally being shown in the light of forgiveness, tolerance, compassion, brotherhood and love. To me, that's what it is all about. And although I fail at it miserably on a daily basis, I get up the next day and start all over again. That's the beauty of it!

[Terran]

98. Not a believer here, but I appreciate people who act "in good faith".

People who hold true to the teachings of their religion have my admiration. I'm lucky, in my work with various homeless agencies, to have come into contact with many people like this. Thanks for the post, and I'm sorry a few people find it necessary to be rude to you about your faith.

[donco6]

103. What do liberal churches teach about "salvation"?

Coming from a fundie background, I really don't know. My church was always so "My way or the highway. . . . only Christians who believe in Jesus as Lord and savior are going to heaven, . . . everyone else goes to hell forever." Do liberals believe that stuff too?

[Sophree]

107. Not necessarily.

My view is that it's really not for me to say who is going to hell and who is not or who is saved and who is not- I do know that there is salvation and a whole lot of other amazing things through Christ.

The verse in the Bible that I think this theological question and controversy comes from are the various interpretations of John 14:6- "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (KJV).

I don't really know what other liberal Christians believe, so I did some googling and found this:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/john146.htm

Most Christians hold one of the following three beliefs about other religions and faith groups:

John 14:6 is often quoted by conservative Protestants as one proof that a person can only attain Heaven after death if they have believed in Yeshua of Nazareth (a.k.a. Jesus Christ) while on Earth. This is been referred to as exclusivity or particularism.
There is a movement among many fundamentalist and other evangelical Christians to accept the inclusive view. This viewpoint was also adopted by the Roman Catholic Church during the 1960s. They believe that the only fully true religion is their own particular branch of Christianity, but that it is possible for some non-Christians to be saved and attain Heaven even though they have never heard of Yeshua or have never heard of Christianity.
Finally, there is the position found frequently among Christian liberals and progressives: that all faiths are true and valid when interpreted within their own culture.

We realize that the interpretation of John 14:6 is a hot-button item among many Christians. The exclusivist and inclusivist interpretations are also the source of much animosity by non-Christians against Christians. However, explaining all three interpretations is important because the typical Christian only hears of one of the three viewpoints in their church.

There are some quotes that represent the differing viewpoints, mine is closest to C.S. Lewis's viewpoint:

C.S. Lewis: "Though all salvation is through Jesus, we need not conclude that He cannot save those who have not explicitly accepted Him in this life."
"We do know that no can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him.

:hi:

[donco6]

114. I remember reading the Narnia chronicles, and . . .

.. . getting to The Last Battle, and being surprised that Lewis seemed to imply that others could get to heaven without having heard about Jesus. That was one of the first times, in fact, that I even knew there were Christians whom I admired who didn't believe exactly like me.

I guess where I'm at these days is quite divorced from my childhood. It's become so unpalatable that I don't think I can ever sit down at that table again. But I do still believe in a God . . . of sorts.

[Sophree]

116. I think that happens a lot

With people who grow up with religion and legalism, rather than true teaching. My sister-in-law is one example, her experience growing up makes her want nothing to do with anything "religious." It is completely repellant to her.

I was lucky enough to have parents that allowed us to come to our own beliefs as we got older. Although they still made us go to CCD (a Catholic youth thing) when we were younger. lol

I sometimes wish that I had been taught more about Christ and the gospel when I was younger, though. It might have saved me some pain and serious heartache. But I am where I am now and I'm so glad- and there's no changing the past, so why waste time with "if onlys."

Keep seeking, you'll find your truth.

Peace.

[TrogL]

125. C. S. Lewis is still pretty conservative

"Mere Christianity" is quite the tap dance.

[Missy Vixen]

127. I was big on C.S. Lewis while still in the church world

"The Screwtape Letters" was one of my favorite books.

I'm now into Bishop John Philip Spong. I LOVED "Why Christianity Must Change or Die".

Julie

[Sophree]

130. I haven't read "Mere Christianity"

Although it's been on my list, as it seems to be "required reading" for a Christian. ;-) No, really, I've wanted to read it for a while- it's just that I don't have a whole lot of free time to read what I want. I'm in grad. school, but the semester is almost over, so I'll get back to you after I read it before commenting.

I've read other books by Lewis, and if he's conservative, to me he is conservative in that somewhat stuffy British way (no offense, Brits!).

Anyway, I wasn't really saying that C.S. Lewis is (was) conservative or liberal, but that his view on salvation is similar to my own.

[Zhade]

160. With all due respect, no, you don't "know" that. You believe it.

NT!

[Sophree]

208. Yes, I believe it.

You're right, I believe it. I also believe that it is something I know, something that is true for me. But it's not based on "blind faith" or something I believe without question, without any evidence to support it. That is my truth. It doesn't have to be yours.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

214. There's also Romans 2:12-16, which deals with the question of

"righteous Gentiles," who have the law inscribed in their hearts.

Personally, I believe that the only people who are in danger of condemnation by God are the ones who deliberately choose to do great evil when they know better.

[JerseygirlCT]

112. No. Most believe in some variation of "that's between them and

God".

And some of us are universalists - that is, we believe in universal salvation - if one is going to be "saved" then every one of us, believer or no, "good" or no, will be, too. I rather like the idea of the surprise that may bring to a few self-righteous "church-lady" types, myself. I probably ought to get over that, it's not nice. But it's fun to contemplate all the same! To me, a loving God loves every one of God's creation - no exceptions. Could I love one of my children less were he to be behaving horribly and tell me he hates me? No. I might not like it much, but it wouldn't change my love one bit. If I'm capable of that, how much more capable would God be?

[Zhade]

162. But... virtually all of you believe jesus literally rose from the dead, right?

Here's an angle I've never asked about - are there christians who take jesus' purported resurrection to be mere allegory?

That would be refreshing!

[JerseygirlCT]

193. Sure there are

And everything in-between.

All those questions about the actual meaning of, and how physically actual Christ's death and resurrection were and how symbolic they were - you'll find people right along the whole spectrum, from entirely literal to entirely symbolic and all places in the middle.

Personally, I'd say that's an area where there's the greatest mystery, and not one I'm likely to fully understand in this life!

The thing is, symbolic or literal, the meaning remains and is powerfully important. And at least in my church, those variations easily occur from person to person in the pews - heck, from priest to priest! And it doesn't matter - we share the worship and the mystery and allow each person their personal understanding, such as it is, of the mystery.

(LOL, And I know that "mystery" will be a most unsatistfactory response for you, but there you have it, Zhade! Most of us Christians are comfortable with a bit of that.)

[bobbolink]

119. "Liberal" churches tend more to look at Christ's words....

"Love one another as I have loved you."

People expressing hatred for Christians would do well to think about those words.

[Zhade]

164. Not one person on this thread has expressed hatred for christians. Climb down off the cross.

NT!

[Blarch]

106. They sound like nice people, but ....

in the end they worship the god of the bible, and that god is sick and twisted.

[Zhade]

165. I have to agree. If that god actually existed, I'd never worship the asshole.

NT!

[Marr]

110. Yep. I know several myself and I love them dearly.

A couple of my best friends who I'd literally trust my life to are very religiously devout. One is Christian, the other Muslim. Great people. I'm an atheist myself, and we've had some very entertaining discussions on the subject of religion.

[TrogL]

123. Maybe we need a new term - "follower of Christ"

[bobbolink]

126. That would certainly narrow the field.

By a l-a-r-g-e percentage.

:rofl:

"I like your Jesus Christ. Your Christians, not so much."

loose translation of Gandhi

[Sophree]

209. It certainly would.

Narrow the field, I mean. lol.

Follower of Christ- that is what I try to be. I fall short, as do we all, but it's something to strive for.

[Toasterlad]

129. It's a Shame the "Good" Christians Are Such a Small Minority.

If the majority of christians were good people, surely they wouldn't allow the hate-mongers to be the only ones near a microphone or TV camera.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

215. It's been my suspicion for a long time that the hate-mongers are being

funded by right-wing foundations.

There's a group called The Institute for Religion and Democracy, which is funded by Scaife, Bradley, and all the usual right-wing suspects, and one of its missions has been to stir up controversies in the liberal churches. A lot of the anti-gay stuff in the Episcopal Church (which has been quietly ordaining gays and lesbians for years) has been stirred up by people who are egged on by this outfit.

Furthermore, and I get tired of saying this, we have no control over the right-wing fundies. None. They don't even accept us as Christians, but as people who are deluded by the devil.

[Sophree]

217. Absolutely.

We have no control over other anyone, including the right-wing Christians on TV or elsewhere.

I also tend to believe that most people who are followers of Christ are humble and don't seek the limelight. Thus, we get the most proud (and greed-driven) preachers on TV, the most hateful and outspoken Christians on talk shows (makes better TV than the gospel message of peace, love, self-sacrifice and humility), etc.

[knitter4democracy]

220. I would agree with that.

I've wondered where they get the money for these slick pamphlets and radio ads. The evangelical churches I've been in don't have that kind of money, so it's got to be coming from somewhere.

[quaker bill]

224. Perhaps

it is the character of those who more carefully follow the path to not seek publicity. Christ cautioned against "praying on street corners" in short, he advised against making a show of oneself. You are making assumptions poorly.

Friends (Quakers) do not prosletize, we practice simplicity and humility. Most of our charitable work is done anonymously. When we take public positions, it is generally to protest a war or work for civil rights. Accordingly, you would likely not know of our work in founding the ACLU, or of the work that earned us the Nobel Peace Prize, or for that matter the consistent advocacy of peace and social justice issues that earned us a 12,000 page FBI file.

[Mollis]

153. I would like to think

that I am this kind of Christian.
I keep an open mind, and I always try my hardest to accept people of who they are. If my mind starts to think different, I stop it in it's tracks, and turn it around. I say, they are just different then me, no need to judge them.
I am guessing that those not so nice thoughts stem from my upbringing, where my dad is a pretty judgmental person.

[Zhade]

169. Just the fact that you want to be that kind is a good sign.

I think religion is utter nonsense, but if we're going to have believers I'd much rather have types like you and the OP.

[Mollis]

172. Why thank you

and I wish I knew more of us...
I am ashamed of those that are discriminatory and hateful, when they claim to love.

[Skittles]

192. guess what?

I know many kind, considerate, thoughtful giving people who AREN'T people of faith

[Lydia Leftcoast]

216. And I know many of them, Skittles

I don't think anybody on DU is saying that you have to be religious to be a good person.

[JerseygirlCT]

219. It's not a zero-sum thing, Skittles.

Plenty of both, which I think was the point, really.

[Skittles]

221. nope

I got the distinct impression that the OP, like so many people, think only Christians can be (or should be) truly good people.

[JerseygirlCT]

222. I didn't get that impression at all

I think perhaps you were looking for that impression?

In fact, the opposite is rather more prevalent around DU. I think the OP was taking the opportunity to point out that there are plenty of good people where others might be writing good people off.

[Rainbowreflect]

223. Sorry if you read it that way.

I actually just wanted to point out there are some good, caring, liberal Christians. That the ones we see and hear the most about are not IMHO good, caring or moral at all.