Which of these scenarios seems most plausible?

[Silent3]

This list of scenarios isn't exhaustive, so please feel free to post your own scenarios too, but I'm still hoping for readers of this thread to vote for what they consider to be the most plausible among the available choices in the poll.

Rather than make the poll choices excessively wordy, I'll make the choices terse with more complete explanations of each choice below.


(1) You create your own reality (solipsistic version): You are personally totally responsible for everything that happens in your life. Even if you get cancer, or your whole family dies horribly while you watch, you wanted or "needed" to have that experience. Other people are just props in your reality.

(2) You create your own reality (magical coordination version): Other people are just as real as you are, and everyone is creating the reality they want, and somehow, someway, the pieces all magically fit together so everyone is getting just what they want or need at the same time. When two people apply for a job, regardless of how much either says they want or need the job, only one of them is speaking the truth. The other person didn't really want the job, and when a fit of desperation and depression over finances drives the person who didn't get the job to kill his children before killing himself, the children just happened to have been looking for the experience of being killed by a parent -- everybody gets what they want in the end.

(3) Human/sentient minds collectively create reality: Reality is still all in our minds, but it's the collective force of multiple minds that matters. Something like numbers of people who want or believe different things, or strength of will, or training in mystical knowledge, determines the shared reality outcome.

(4) What God wants happens, with everyone's best interests in mind: Kind of like (1) or (2), but with a big powerful all-knowing, all-wise Deity in the driver's seat. Horrible stuff still happens, but trust Him, He's got a Plan.

(5) What God wants happens, with devoted followers getting the best deal: Like (4), but with a God who plays favorites.

(6) What God wants happens, with human outcomes pretty much irrelevant: Like (1), but we all get to be irrelevant props in God's game.

(7) Shit happens: Humans have some control over what happens in their lives, and while attitude and belief can effect outcomes, they are far from all-powerful influences. We get just as much control as our bodies manipulating the surrounding environment can produce. The universe is otherwise indifferent to human desires, doesn't have plans for us, and doesn't organize experiences into lessons designed for our "personal growth". There are "reasons" things happen as they do, but the reasons are physical laws, not, say, teaching you the meaning of love or showing you how you're strong enough to make it on your own.

[Lerkfish]

1. I think the way you've couched your questions is quite loaded

but they are still valid questions.

I chose (6), but would not have agreed with your rejoinder to it:

I agree with: (6) What God wants happens, with human outcomes pretty much irrelevant:

and disagree with the characterization of:

Like (1), but we all get to be irrelevant props in God's game.

its possible to believe that God has a plan without characterizing that plan as a pointless game.

[tularetom]

2. I say "Shit happens and God doesn't care - he lets it happen"

[Sinti]

3. You have provided no good answers.

Shit happens, and when faced with that shit you have choices to make. Post-shit happening the ball it totally in your court. The choices you make dictate what else happens in your life re: shit happening. Sometimes shit happens and the individuals involved lack the resources to deal with. In those cases it makes a hell of a mess.

How about You create your own reality (Pragmatic Perseverance Version): Most successful people will tell you it's their "keep pushing" attitude and belief in themselves that got them to where they are. You can realign your strategy, but don't quit is the basic lesson here. Also, if you don't believe, you are very unlikely to succeed. Self-confidence is self-fulfilling.

Perhaps the case is that God doesn't really pay much attention to what happens. If God wanted certain things to happen, God could make them happen - but why bother. Maybe, OTOH, one should think: If these are the dreams of Vishnu, who's to say things are not as they should be?

Apparently you're feeling pessimistic and somewhat un-resourceful. I'm sorry. :hi:

Edited for typographic error

[Silent3]

4. What you're saying isn't very different from my "shit happens" option...

...all you're doing is putting extra emphasis on the part humans can and do control, which is already included in my "shit happens" explanation.

Sometimes the shit that happens is fatal: no ball, no court, game over.
Sometimes the shit that happens is beyond fixable: the ball is in your court, but the game is to hit the ball over a 20-mile high net. You lose.

If it sounds like I'm over-emphasizing the negative it's only because so many "create your own reality" folk conveniently gloss over the negative outcomes in life. I totally acknowledge that positive attitudes can help -- they just aren't all powerful. I totally acknowledge that perseverance is important -- but perseverance won't overcome everything.

The ugly side of some versions of the "positive thinking/perseverance" doctrine is that it can have a nasty blame-the-victim side. Your line "Apparently you're feeling pessimistic and somewhat un-resourceful. I'm sorry." has a strong whiff of that smug tone to it, in fact.

My own life is going quite well, thank you very much. I just don't feel the need to categorize those who are less successful than myself as losers who didn't think positively enough and persevere enough. In fact, that kind of thinking sounds downright Republican to me.

[Sinti]

7. I didn't mean to sound smug. I apologize if it came off that way.

I mostly agree with you here. The blame the victim aspect of the positive thinking crowd is way out of line, and oftentimes a cheap excuse for not caring about others. However, what is beyond fixable for one may be highly fixable for another. Those kinds of resources are a personal thing.

I do believe that the "universe is otherwise indifferent to human desires," but I'm not entirely clear on why things happen and whether there is any purpose. I don't think I can say one way or the other - I lack information. On its face it seems like there is no purpose, but not everything in the life is as it appears "on its face". In the long view it looks like there is possibility some sort of progression of the species to me - beyond physical evolution from the hominids forward.

This is the only reason I didn't choose answer 7. The universe "doesn't have plans for us" and that only "physical laws" come into play are things I can't say for certain - I don't one way or the other. Believing in the existence of a god means believing that there is something more than what we see on this physical plane. Had you just said "shit happens" no further text, I would have chosen it.

[knitter4democracy]

5. I'd vote for number 4, but it's not quite what I believe.

If I could combine numbers four and seven, that would be more like what I believe.

[Meshuga]

6. Shit happens

The organization of "experiences into lessons designed for our 'personal growth'" is created by humans. The same applies to teaching "the meaning of love or showing you how you're strong enough to make it on your own."

Then again, because social and cultural influences, some of the people who think this way can still bring themselves to believe in something supernatural from time to time. In a similar way when people tell ghost stories and you get spooked out but deep inside you believe that ghosts don't exist and that the stories are bullshit.

I guess that besides these social and cultural influences the same people might or might not bring themselves to believe in the supernatural out of human necessity for comfort.

I don't know, just my two cents.