Did anyone hear about this psychologist who had a near-death experience

[dualitybites]

and he went to "hell" (a temporary place that was this dark void)? I tried to Google it but cannot locate all the info, but he had been pronounced dead for a bit and then had a NDE. Was an atheist before and thinks that is why he had such a negative/void-like experience. I have always been fascinated with the topic of NDEs (I know someone who was pronounced dead for half an hour and became very spiritual as a result) and the common refrain is that we experience what we are trained or what we expect to experience. Therefore, if you believe in Jesus, you'll probably see Him, whereas someone else may see Krishna. And perhaps a Native American sees something from nature? But it really shows how we create our own realities, I feel.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. Do you mean this guy?

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2006/03/23-Minutes-In-Hell.aspx

He's a realtor.

The other 'side' of this is 90 Minutes in Heaven. A beautiful book.

[dualitybites]

4. No, this wasn't a Christian...he was an atheist before! Think he was Russian...

I heard him on Coast to Coast or something. You know, with Art Bell?

[edhopper]

35. Ah CTC,

A true source of facts and knowledge.
:sarcasm:

[lostnotforgotten]

2. Interesting Theory Is That NDEs Are Really The Brain Sending An SOS

As it shuts down.

Images from the brain are retrieved as part of that process.

So, according to this theory, NDEs are really not metaphysical at all.

[dualitybites]

6. That's silly...people can sometimes tell you exactly what you where doing while they were astral

traveling. It's one thing not to believe in God, but why do some people always want to disprove the existence of the soul?

[Orrex]

45. The burden of proof is on the one who's making the positive claim

That is, it's not up to me to disprove the existence of a soul; it's up to you to prove it.

And there are no confirmed cases of people giving accurate, verifiable accounts of events that transpired while they were supposedly "astral," whatever that means.

If the soul does exist, there is no evidence that it does, outside of aesthetics and wishful thinking.




Welcome to DU, by the way.

[edhopper]

47. Except for him!

[Orrex]

48. Well, yeah--he's self evident.

Everybody else, though...

[sam sarrha]

52. there have been verified NDE experiences.. as a Buddhist i believe in no soul, there is something

referred to as a "Thought Stream"...but it is impermanent and a product of believing the internal dialog of the Natural Mind... see

Dependent Origination: The Buddhist Law of Conditionally

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Dependent/dependent.html .. not the best example..but you probably aren't interested anyway so i wont waste my time .. http://www.Buddhanet.net has the best example


i have no inclination to prove there is no soul, People are free to believe in the Great Pumpkin. just keep that bull shit out of my home and out of my face

[Orrex]

60. Surely that anger isn't for me, is it angry Buddhist?

Near-death experiences do not in any way equate to proof that the soul exists, any more than having a preference for chocolate ice cream does.

Thanks for the links, but they don't really change my assertion: to date, no evidence has been produced that indicates that "the mind" or "spirit" or "soul" can function independent of the brain with which it's associated. None whatsoever.

Whether or not you want to prove it to me is irrelevant.

[sam sarrha]

64. not anger in any way.. it just circular dogma.. its boring and un interesting.. and they will not

quit trying to legislate it.. in the government, in the schools and in my home.. it isn't un-Buddhist to call bull shit what it is, they want to create a theocracy to control everything from what happens from the federal government to my bedroom. there is a whole big book of things you and the wife can do in southern states that could probably put you and her in prison for life after one good party.

[Orrex]

67. Well, now you're sort of making sense

I have to say that the choppy rhetorical style comes off as a bit of an affectation, but whatever floats your boat...

And your demand to "keep the bullshit out of my face" seemed to be addressed to me, coming as it did in a reply to my post and my comments.

If it wasn't directed at me, but was instead meant generally, then I apologize for jumping on you for it.

[sam sarrha]

68. no you.. I live in the Bible Bang'n SOUTH..had to take off the "Free Tibet" bumper sticker cause i

realized it got me fired from at least 4 jobs..

i'm an Aspy.. i usually say things literally,

[sam sarrha]

53. the story of the 3 jars... 1 jar is cracked, nothing stays in. The Second jar is Poisoned, anything

you put in it also becomes Poisoned. The Third jar has a cover, nothing can enter

which jar belongs to the Naysayer..??:shrug:

[Orrex]

59. I use Tupperware

And cutesy homilies don't do much for me.

[sam sarrha]

62. yuo deserve tupperware..

[Orrex]

63. You must be the angriest Buddhist ever to tread the eightfold path

Aren't you worried about fucking up your karma or something?

[sam sarrha]

65. ...whats wrong with Tupperware... are you paranoid. even your avatar is angry/aggressive or really

really defensive.. all the armoring is showing.. or do you feel a need to have the last word

you can have the victory, after all if i gift isn't accepted, who owns it..??

[Orrex]

66. Uh, the avatar is a Mega Bloks figure.

So, you're into Buddhism and pop psychology. Quite a combo...


Hey, go ahead and have the last word, if it pleases you. Doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

[sam sarrha]

69. not pop psychology.. Sanskrit humor.. a Buddha story, i was a double major Zoology/psychology

child development minor... Ronald Reagan became Governor and the education system dissolved in CA. it didn't even begin to recover until 1997... and major setbacks resulted from the 2000 appointment of our present wet Brian alcoholic drug addict Narcississy

if i don't know where seemingly Apriorily aggressive people are coming from, i tend to poke them with a stick a couple times... my wife used to sell Tupperware.. at least 1/2 of my Work shop is piled to the ceiling with boxes of up to 30 year old tupperware with no lids.. it is a sore point.

i had to make bases with caster wheels for my lathe, break press, drill press, ban saw, a wheeled work bench.. i line them up along one wall and only have room for 2 at a time to use.. tupperware is a really sore point

my experience with psychology was a bad one, as a research biologist i had to question stuff, not a good idea in that 'science'.. in 1984 i took a 2 year grant job to do a research project as a Youth Councilor at a lock down prison, juvenal parole officer, member of the parole board. i took the position to write a paper on Meditation as a counseling tool "Apriori logic as perceptual dysfunction and a stalemate in the counseling process".. the premise is that Circular Apriori logic is "Invincible Ignorance", any attempt to help the 'Victim' only inflames the situation. there is a Phenomenon where 'art-music-repetitious exercise-meditation' actually "Physically Restructures" the brain, by apparently reconnecting the Rt/Lft:Analogical/digital functions and the victim cures themselves.. and end up with a more effective and appropriate life/world view than most of the adults i knew.

every kid i got to meditate was paroled in 30 to 60 days. this made the institution look bad and they canceled the study. i really have little patience with Nay Sayers, invalidating witless bullies

'Destructive Emotions' by Danial Goldman/Dalai Lama
http://www.amazon.com/Destructive-Emotions-Scientific-Dialogue-Dalai/dp/0553381059/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227630440&sr=1-1

its been interesting.. these rarely carry for so long

[patrice]

9. "not metaphysical" depends upon your definition of Metaphysics.

***Personally*** I prefer a definition that makes use of that Greek prefix "meta-" which has reference to "that which stands behind" as in the ground against which Physics manifests itself (sorry I don't have an OED handy to provide a cite for this reference. I think I remember that this was also the sense in which Aristotle, the Father of Western Logic, used the word Metaphysics).

And I can't tell you much more about it, but I DO know that that ground out of which our Physics manifests itself is now thought to have something like 11, not just 3, dimensions. This fact is particularly intersting when paralleled with some of the characteristics of human neurophysiology, especially something like 99! different combinations of neuro-transmitters and neuro-modulators.

I REALLY am against magical thinking. But I'm also FOR recognizing that there is much I don't know.

[sam sarrha]

24. YOU REALLY DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK....please read below

i have had several OBE's, 1 NDE due to CO2 poisoning.. where i woke to find myself paralyzed due to O2 deprivation, i realized what happened, someone took the cap off the gas floor heater where i was visiting they did it before and gave everybody headaches i thought i had explained the danger well enough..NOT.,

i assessed the situation- I'm not breathing, nausea, that stupid girl took the cap off the gas floor heater again..and when you suffocate like this 'you always wake up 4 minutes before you die and you are paralyzed' it took me a couple minutes to figure it out.. so i thought "in about another minute i wont have another care in this world". i was then overwhelmed with a sense of overwhelming bliss. i began traveling thru the tunnel at ever increasing "Blazing" speed, i thought "hey, i wonder what happens if i exceed the speed of light.?"

right then a voice "like a bell" said.. "no, not yet", i returned to my body like stretching a huge rubber band and snapping it against your thumb, but all over.. very painful..

that OBE was due to O2 Deprivation

this one was due to O2 Hyper-Saturation

i was practicing PRANAYAMA, a system that saturates the blood with O2 to the point of acidification.
the exercise was under the supervision of a Master Yogi, you breath in quickly and breath out very slowly, this isn't hyperventalating..that is exhaling quicker than you breath in.

the lungs are a semi-permeable membrane.. if you blow hard you blow off more of the smaller molecules=O2, blow slowly with no pressure you provide time for O2 to exchange CO2-a larger molecule from the hemoglobin in the red cells in the blood, increasing the vapor pressure of the CO2 and allowing it to be expelled.

after about an hour or 2 of intense Pranayama an Out of Body Experience can be initiated, i had been in training for 4 months and was ready.. they take there in baby steps.. just as i saw the Veil to the other side, again.. my teacher touched my shoulder and whispered, "Affirm".. i thought, "does he mean like affirmation.? to get something you want.?? i thought,"the only thing i really want is to end the conflict between my wife and i. one day i came home to a "COMPLETELY" empty house, EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING WAS GONE,she had run off with a drug dealer and 2 hookers with our 3 year old. i had been worrying myself about our son into a serious state approaching mental illness, i'd miss him and curse her, i was lost in a habitual circle..

i then winked into a 'BLAZING WHITE LIGHT'

I was apparently floating as a thin crystalline outline.. the white light was streaming thru me like a raging river... there were little colored sparks passing in little spirals, i could see the perspective of their path. they were flowing from a point about 20 feet from me..
a voice like a bell...the very same voice mentioned above, said, "THEN LOVE HER", I kneejerked, "yea, but".... the voice responded with infinite compassion.."BUT NOTHING..LOVE HER"

i felt like I was standing before the burning bush, arguing with it, that night i began a program where every time i cursed her.. i blessed her twice. i prayed for her guidance out of her terrible situation and protection until she was free of it. upon waking and before sleep and every time i thought of them ..i visualized wife and son in a globe of light like i had experienced, repeat my prayer for them 10 times,

3 weeks later i got a letter from her that she had moved back to her mothers home, and was applying it collage. that i could see my son anytime i wanted, and gave me her phone number so i could call him.

point is.. i got similar experiences from both O2 deprivation and hyper-saturation.. involving an infinitely compassionate entity..

so perhaps you should reconsider that Psychological conjecture as total bull shit..

[lostnotforgotten]

30. Lighten Up - Did All Not Read The Word Theory!

eom

[sam sarrha]

40. theory implies an unexplained truth.. what you have is actually an Apriori "opinion" evolution is a...

Theory.. in actuality it is often a truth , Evolution is TRUTH. the only variable is the mechanism that works it

the 'O2 deprivation hallucination is the product of arrogant ignorant Psychologists and is totally untested, not one bit of data.. NDE's are substantiated by some data.. the problem is the control.. NDE's were quite common before advances in anesthesia which as a side effect erase the memory.

the entire science of Psychology is flawed from the beginning, never in any of the research ever done in human psychology was an appropriate control involved. not one element of Sigmund Freud's opinions or research is accepted as any sort of theory much less a any sort of effective treatment.

Danion Brinkly, is the leader in NDE's, struck by lightening twice, author of 3 books about it. he was invited to a symposium on NDE's involving foremost Psychologists, scientists.. during the proceedings he noticed all the lettering after all the 'Professionals' names.. as a result he sorta hung back and listened. he has developed an entirely new and more effective system of Hospice, a psychologist that knew him and admired him dragged him over to a circle of "Experts".. one very arrogant expert quotes what you said.. Danion said that he didn't feel that what he said was other than opinion .. the Expert made a big deal of leaning over within inches of Danions un-credentialed name tag and said, upon what credentials do you base your statement, Danion took a large step up to him and in a loud voice said.. allow me to introduce myself.. DANION BRINKLY DOA

i was a research biologist in the 70's, i took a poison called Vapona off the market. and it cost me. there is something called
"The Blind Eye of Science"

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/tesla/ballsci.txt
"snip...success of scientific experiment and theory had led to a misplaced
confidence that *what was real was already within the circle of science.*
What was outside, therefore, what did not conform to scientists' theories,
could be dismissed by invoking scientific authority and by ignoring or
ridiculing observations not supported by it.

More recently, in 1979, the medical researcher Ludwik Fleck noted in his
book The Genesis and Development of a Scientific Fact a very similar
trend. He wrote:

What we are faced with here is not so much simple passivity or
mistrust of new ideas as an active approach which can be divided into
several stages.

(1) A contradiction to the system appears unthinkable

(2) What does not fit into the system remains unseen;

(3) alternatively, if it is noticed, either it is kept secret, or

(4) laborious efforts are made to explain an exception in terms that
do not contradict the system.

(5) Despite the legitimate claims of contradictory views, one
only tends to see, describe, or even illustrate those
circumstances which corroborate current views and thereby give
them substance.

What does not fit the theory is thus excluded. The anomalous event is
forced outside the official circle of consciousness into a kind of outlaw
existence...snip"

sorry, but i really feel a need to step on close minded ignorant offhanded invalidations that exist for no other reason than to end an interesting conversation.. and if you were just repeating it without beleaving it, it's best to frame it as an inquiry for opinion to stimulate conversation, cause that sounds really paternal and heavy handed.. it is an insult, NDE's often change peoples lives for ever, it makes them unconditionally compassionate, opens their minds, their hearts.. then some Pseudo-psychologist shits on the conversation

you perhaps didn't intend that.. but that also makes me wonder why you didn't know better. it's like Jews nailing any innuendo ever slightly antisemitic. if one doesn't stop paternalistic bullshit it spreads.. even out of ignorance. there is an evolving cosmology branching away from Dogmatic Religion. i protect it like a new born puppy. it is freedom itself

[lostnotforgotten]

44. Theories By Definition Are Opinions - Intelligent Opinions, But Still Opinions

No one said any of these opinions have been vetted by testing.

[sam sarrha]

54. but they have been unintellectually and dogmatically invalidated

[lostnotforgotten]

58. Says Who? - I've Seen No Invalidation Of Any Theories In This Thread

Just first person accounts that do not translate to controlled scientific studies.

[Pharaoh]

3. There is some truth to the fact

that you create your own reality

The point is we do continue on after the death of the body. I have studied the NDE for years and it is a fascinating subject. Here's a good clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsV2oWL0bK0&feature=related

But of course if you expect death to be a black void that would be what you might experience.

[dualitybites]

7. Well, that was my theory: that since he was an atheist, he thought that death would bring him

nothingness so he got it! But it was just a preview since he didn't really die. So perhaps it's not a question of God punishing us for not believing so much as we punish ourselves for having such a materialistic and limited view of life and the immortality of the soul.

[Pharaoh]

10. that's a pretty good

synopsis I think...

[patrice]

18. I like that up to "But since it was just a preview . . . "

I have been with Loved-Ones, one of whom was NOT spiritual, for whom it was not a preview and it was clear that something special happened in the last few minutes.

What if: "s/he thought that death would bring him/her nothingness/everything . . . " and since there are no Absolutes, the other (that which they did not expect/think) manifested itself in the physical systems as part of a process.

[sam sarrha]

55. ...he was a "Psychologist" for pity sakes.! his mind was so confused he could not see what really

happened due to his institutionally sponsored and approved ignorance.. so he chose to believe goat herder's campfire stories from 4000 years ago about a Prophet that was obviously Schizophrenic and passed along his Hallucinations as the word of god.. then a descendant of his also obviously schizophrenic.. started another religion in the middle east on the product of schizophrenic hallucinations. i have a F'n Theory that all religion is the product of Schizophrenia

[patrice]

12. No one is ever really "gone".

If you ever were "Real", then, until Real ends, even though you change and we may not be able to discern the "new" you, you're always part of what is Real.

Reality would not be what it is if you/something had never existed in the first place. Every thing had it's effect upon Reality, so every thing is still here.

[lildreamer316]

43. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. n/t

[Orrex]

46. Maybe not, but if you grind someone up into a smooth paste, they're effectively gone

And there's no evidence whatsoever that anything of the individual persists after the destruction of the brain.

[Ecumenist]

16. I've experienced 3 NDE's in August of 1998, August 7 1998 to be exact.

They are more than just the brain sending out an SOS or any other physiological reaction to asphyxia.

[arKansasJHawk]

22. That is certainly ...

An opinion. But anecdotal evidence is not the same thing as actual evidence that NDEs are NOT the result of a lack of oxygen to the brain (technically cerebral hypoxia, not "asphyxia"), and other, utterly mundane physiological causes.

While there is no current scientific theory that conclusively shows NDEs to be non-metaphysical in nature, the fact that numerous experiments have been able to reproduce the subjective experience in non-life threatening situations indicates that there's good reason to stick with the simple explanation and avoid introducing concepts like the afterlife and astral projection into the mix.

The fact that we don't entirely understand something is not, in this case or in any other, proof that the phenomena in question is "supernatural" in origin.

[Ecumenist]

23. ArkansansHawk...

Until you undergo what I did and had the same medical opinions of my outcome based on what they saw happening during my 45 minutes of death, no pulse, no heart rate, no discernable brain waves for 45 bloody minutes, you ABSOLUTELY DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, TRUST ME. You have a right to your own opinions, BUT not your own facts. Since you are posing as a putting forth a scientific opinion, you should be aware of the fact that you cannot put forth such an opinion with multiple unknowns. Please explain how I was able to see things happening in the surgery theatre since it was, according to your opinion, not supernatural but purely mundane happenings, yet my body was on the operating table with my eyes taped shut, unconscious. And ArkansasHawk, don't worry, I'll wait...

[cyborg_jim]

26. There is an on-going experiment to test that

Namely whether or not you are actually seeing what is going on or are simply imagining what is going on.

The brain creates reality for you everyday and it's fairly easy to demonstrate that through some simple cognitive experiments (optical illusions being the commonest). What we perceive on a day-to-day basis as being "real" is more like a complex internal model of the world that is built up by the information coming from our senses and certain hardwired ways in which that data gets interpreted.

The experiment to test this is pretty simple. A randomized but clear image is placed in a high place pointing at the ceiling such that you wouldn't be able to see what it is unless you were looking down on it. No-one in the theatre prepares or places the image and it is constantly changed to avoid it being generally known what it is. Then you just have to wait and see if anyone who does have an NDE can actually report what the image is. It would be a very interesting discovery if it did happen.

[Ecumenist]

27. CyborgJIm, I ACTUALLY did see things in the theatre I should NOT

have been able to see. Unfortunately, this happened in a hospital that , as far as I know, wasn't set up for such an experiment. It was Mercy San Juan in Carmichael California. My Doctor was at first shocked and then creeped out because I told him things that I wouldn't have know UNLESS I swee certai things and HEARD him announce something during my clinical death. I was able to tell them about something that was on top of the cabinets in the operating theatre. BTW, I had completely exsaguinated three times, ie, lost my COMPLETE blood volume three times. I not only wasn't expected to survive BUT in the event I did, they expected me to have permanent and profound brain damage. So, though I cannot conclusively speak for the experiences of others, I can truly say that my experience was something that was inexplainable in terms of everyday mendacity.

[arKansasJHawk]

29. Again ...

Anecdotal evidence, while making for an interesting story to tell around the campfire, isn't proof of anything. There are a lot of people out there with a lot of stories about a lot of things that just ain't so.

There's a woman who puts videos up on YouTube talking about how the government is messing with the atmosphere and causing rainbows to appear in her yard sprinkler. I don't need to know this woman or anything about her to know there's a better explanation for rainbows in her sprinkler.

I don't know anything about you or your experience, either. All I need to know is that there has been ample scholarship and examination of similar experiences (like the case of Pam Reynolds) that shows it's utterly unnecessary to postulate some sort of mind-body dislocation to explain these experiences.

Is it possible that some "near-death experiences" are manifestations of mind-body dislocation? Sure. Just about anything is possible. It's possible that Amelia Earhart and her plane were abducted by aliens from another galaxy, but it's much more likely that she flew off course and crashed. Unless someone stumbles upon her remains, we may never know for sure, but that's no reason to stop people flying because they might be snatched away by little green men.

[Ecumenist]

31. ArkansasHawk, how is it possible to make the leap that seem to be making based

some woman name Pam Reynolds, (whoever she is), conflate that with mindset of someone who is obviously a bit tilted, (Rainbow sprinkler woman) and then go out on an extremely long limb by saying that somehow this completely nullifies the experiences of MILLIONS of people? Can you cite any PEER REVIEWED studies have conclusively explained what has happened to people like me ALL OVER THE WORLD and CONTINUES to happen to people like me? I'm just interested in what you can provide to back up what you seem to be positing.

[arKansasJHawk]

32. I'm not making a leap ...

I'm staying right here on the ground. The leap is the one taken to associate NDE and OOB experiences with mind-body dislocation, the afterlife, astral travel and the like. That particular bar requires a massive leap into speculation, faith and subjective experience.

Some woman named Pam Reynolds is probably the best-known case of NDE out there.
http://www.mortalminds.woerlee.org/reynolds.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds

Briefly, her case was characterized thusly: "During part of the operation she had no brain-wave activity and no blood flowing in her brain, which left her clinically dead. She made several observations about the procedure which later were confirmed by medical personnel as surprisingly accurate."

Sound familiar?

Unfortunately, there is almost nothing in the way of scientific, peer-reviewed study in this area. There are, however, a great number of experiments in which scientists have recreated NDEs through hypoxia and the use of ketamine, among other approaches. That in itself suggests very strongly that there is a simple, rational explanation for NDEs. It is not unassailable proof, but it's certainly more than enough to give a solid outline to the physiological nature of such experiences.

Finally, the point about the sprinkler lady was simple enough: as you say, there are people all over the world with stories about things like NDEs and spirit possession and night hags and chemtrails and a myriad of other seemingly "unexplainable" experiences. That fact does not lend even an ounce of weight to the idea that these stories constitute "proof" of anything. They are just stories, and lots of people choose to reject simple, rational explanations and instead make up or adopt complicated myths and conspiracies and weird creatures to explain their experiences.

And that is a mighty big leap.

[Ecumenist]

33. Actually, if you will reread THOROUGHLY what I wrote...

I not only described what they were saying WORD FOR WORD and doing, I described to a tee something that was on top of the "cabinets" in the surgical theatre. Something that WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE THERE AND WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE BY ANYONE ON THE OPERATING TABLE. In fact, the nurses and doctor argued with me and to prove that I was just hallucinating or whatever it was they postulated, went into the theatre as checked. GUESS WHAT??! I WAS RIGHT. Now how was I able to see something I would not have been able to see EVEN IF I HAD BEEN CONSCIOUS? The operating team spent several hours a week in surgery and wasn't aware of the thing I saw during my obviously "imaginary" state of mind? Further, the object that was in the surgery on the cabinet, for want of a better word actually compromised the safety of surgeries performed there because it was a potential source of contamination. How then, ArkansasJHawk, do you explain this?

[arKansasJHawk]

37. Well ...

On first blush, I'd respond the way I already have. Your experience is not unique. There is the case of "Maria," who supposedly reported seeing a red shoe on the roof of the hospital that was later found by a janitor. Maria was interviewed by Kimberly Clark seven years after the incident, and Clark reported the story uncritically. Further investigation raised serious questions about Maria's version of events.

Without doing further investigation of my own, I'm completely unable to comment on the specifics of your case. I can, however, observe that your experience is quite similar to Maria's and others, and, as I'm not in a position to conduct an investigation, I'm only in a position to group your experience with those others on the basis of their similarity.

And that's just assuming that your memory of the event is 100 percent accurate, which it almost certainly isn't. Ordinary people in ordinary circumstances don't have perfect recall. People under extreme stress are even worse. And so I have to factor that in, as well.

To sum up, there's really nothing to "explain" at this point. We're at an impasse. I'm not going to interview your doctors, put you under hypnosis, or otherwise try to verify your story. I'm only able to tell you that your story is quite similar to a lot of other stories that haven't moved the bar on NDEs one bit.

[Ecumenist]

38. Interesting. Funnily enough, I can vouch for the fact that my memory

is 100%. Why you might ask? I was in a Catholic hospital and upon my recounting of the NDE, the nurses, doctor AND a nun came to me to question my experience. IT'S ALL DOWN IN BLACK AND WHITE, ARKANSASJHAWK. You know, it's is alright to admit that there are some things that aren't readily explainable and simply because my "case" may seem to somehow superficially resemble those you may be somewhat familiar with, I can assure you that the similarity is just that~~superficial. There are things that aren't explainable given the parameters of the knowledge that we now have. BTW, I never said that my experience was unique, never even hinted it. The thing is that genuine NDE's aren't as easily explained as you have implied.

[arKansasJHawk]

39. Round and round ...

Again, without an actual investigation, including a reading of these "black and white ..." what? Notes taken by three individual witnesses? At least one of whom is predisposed to accept without question the reporting of an NDE ... but anyway ... without an actual investigation, all I've got to go on is words on the internet. So I'm done. You believe what you want to believe. Everyone does.

[hlthe2b]

17. well, if we create our own reality, I'm destined for "doggie heaven"

and expect to be greeted by all my previous "darlings" and many more puppies and poochies to boot! Of course I hope some of my human compadres and family members will be along as well...;}

NDE research is fascinating, though. I don't meant to diminish it.

[liberalmuse]

5. I too, am fascinated with NDE's.

And also believe that we create our reality. Near Death Experiences say more about the experiencer than what lies after death. Though I claim to be an atheist, I do believe there is 'something' more to all this than meets the eye. I don't think it is the 'god' of lore. In the end, I suspect we disperse into nothingness, only to reform into something novel. The bottom line is, I simply don't know, and neither does anyone else.

[dualitybites]

8. The person I spoke of is a friend of my partner's and he didn't believe in God either

and said he wasn't into that "God stuff" a week before his car accident. He was pronouced dead for half an hour and said he went into this state where he felt such incredible peace. Then he saw Him (the God image) who told him that it wasn't his time yet and he hung his head and agreed and found himself back in his body. He ended up drinking Drano (and doing other self-destructive acts) because he couldn't stand being in this world after such a beautiful place. Now he's making peace with it all but he still dislikes the world.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

11. Does seeing Elvis count for anything?? Just askin'. n/t

[dualitybites]

14. Hey, if you worship Elvis, then go for it...Not my idea of transcendence, but whatever

floats your boat.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

19. High tide.... nothing but high tide.... no Elvis worshipper here...

not even a little.... now that other guy, the one that Elvis worshipped, now he was a crooner.

[FirstLight]

13. I totally believe that

What a crowd I will have waiting for me! lol (I have been a pagan, and a native american spirituality totem seeker, buddhist, and now am enjoying Christianity...)...and yet they are all one and the same anyway ;)

I started out researching NED's in the late 80's.... so my books of reference were from around Cayce's times and there was one on dying that was written by a nurse/doctor? in the 50's or 60's, can't remember its name, but it was a big classic of its time & content
I realy enjoyed looking at that understanding of archetypes etc...

but the NDE stuff also brings up Astral Projection and OBE's, (Out of Body Experiences) which was far more inticing to me at the time. I as far as I understand - the Astral plane is where the past/present/future possibilities are still fluid and entertwined infinitely as we all make pout collective & individual choices. The Physics of some of those ideas was explored in "what the Bleep" and "Down the Rabbit Hole" (good movies, even if they play to a more mainstream audience, but I have been watching shows like "in search of..." forever...lol)

The think I like about OBE's is that you don't need a trauma or a death to make it happen. You can "will" yourself there. Very much like shamans and buddhists monks and yogis teach... not only is the control aspect cool, but the idea that you can actually choose to "go there" as well as state an intention of what you want to learn, and your 'guides' sometimes take you there...sometimes the experience is totally random too, but it is all confirmation to me that we are MORE than our BODIES. We are an amazing CONSCIOUSNESS, with power to Love & Fear. and that creates our world.

I have done Holotropic Breathwork, Shamanic Journeys, etc...and I can tell you from my own experience. That what you believe isn't as important as what you have revealed to you, about yourself and the symbols that matter to your path. I have experienced the "hell-no-exit" moments of the journey, only to be next found flying over a stream and catching a fish and landing on a tree- Being the Eagle - to feeling my angels all around me as I was brought to this planet, feeling as a newborn and being held and told "welcome, we are so glad you are here"

all very moving and very awesome. I reccomend the inner and outer journeys to anyone who thinks is could be interesting and educational. Find a place or a group that you trust, and enjoy that kind of comunity/tribe experience. :)

[dualitybites]

15. The only thing is that it totally freaks me out...I am so rooted here

that I cannot imagine astral projection. I was meditating once and felt the energy getting stronger (like a train beginning to accelerate) and it was so freaking intense that I ended up planting myself physically to keep myself from leaving. But thanks for the advice. I am always exploring.

[FirstLight]

20. That's the funnest part!

haha, do you like to fly?
..it IS like a roller coaster or an airplane taking off, you feel the vibration increase and have to fight the urge to stand against it, and relenquish that part of the mind that holds on to only what we can see or feel as "reality"

Funny, I have never done acid, but I have enjoyed the altered states of consciousness for my entire life, always seeking a to "see" those other realms. I used to sit in the forest as a child and sing to the animals, convinced that they would eventually come close and talk like "narnia" animals...I used to wish I could go to places like that. As I grew older and it became harder to leave my "reality" I did alot more while dreaming, until I found the outlet of meditation, etc.

By the same token, I consider myself quite an "earthbound" soul... I never felt like some poeple who say they know they aren't of this planet, like they are strangers to this place, etc. I have always felt at home right here!

[dualitybites]

21. Gosh, you are really inspiring me here!

I also have never taken acid. It intrigued me but ultimately not enough to want to see the walls melt. Perhaps you never had to because you had the spirit for the real travel. I have a friend who has left her body but it wasn't controlled so it's not as good. I think she had PTSD from childhood or something. Actually, I know a couple of women who have done it...I just cannot imagine being able to leave at will. It sounds magical. I need to meditate consistently.

[FirstLight]

36. Ya, it is easier when you are practiced in meditation & prayer of some sort.

I wish I could have that discipline. Unless it is a grou or class that I have to show up for and do "homework" for...I slack! so easy to get caught up in this illusion called reality ;)

Running energy and meditation vary so much, make sure you find a practice that sings to you, or that makes you feel like you are making "progres" I have tried some diferent techniques, and there is no real religion to any of them. If you want, you can PM me :)

Otherwise, let's stay posted as to our experiences. The Astrology and Alternative Healing goup here at DU are really nice places to visit and hang out :) good people

[sam sarrha]

25. i enjoyed your post, i have been a life long SEEKer, now Tibetan Buddhist, i'd like to share..

lost in a habitual circle..

i then winked into a 'BLAZING WHITE LIGHT'

I was apparently floating as a thin crystalline outline.. the white light was streaming thru me like a raging river... there were little colored sparks passing in little spirals, i could see the perspective of their path. they were flowing from a point about 20 feet from me..
a voice like a bell...the very same voice mentioned above, said, "THEN LOVE HER", I kneejerked, "yea, but".... the voice responded with infinite compassion.."BUT NOTHING..LOVE HER"

i felt like I was standing before the burning bush, arguing with it, that night i began a program where every time i cursed her.. i blessed her twice. i prayed for her guidance out of her terrible situation and protection until she was free of it. upon waking and before sleep and every time i thought of them ..i visualized wife and son in a globe of light like i had experienced, repeat my prayer for them 10 times,

3 weeks later i got a letter from her that she had moved back to her mothers home, and was applying it collage. that i could see my son anytime i wanted, and gave me her phone number so i could call him.

point is.. i got similar experiences from both O2 deprivation and hyper-saturation.. involving an infinitely compassionate entity..

[charlie]

28. You're probably looking for Howard Storm

His story is popular with a lot of Christians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Storm

[edhopper]

34. So one time,

in Band Camp, I ate some bad tomatoes and totally felt like I was going to hurl. But like I didn't and then I felt really light, like I could fly or something. But I didn't.

[elshiva]

41. One time at band camp I stuck

my flute in my :evilgrin:

[varkam]

42. Don't really buy into the whole NDE thing.

NDEs can be readily reproduced in a lab setting, and there's a very high correlation between people who experience NDEs and people who have Narcolepsy.

[muriel_volestrangler]

49. I don't see how an experience of a 'dark void' would show anything one way or the other

If a fervent believer experienced a dark void, while people fought to save their life, I wouldn't read into that "there's nothing awaiting you after actual death". I'd just say it shows that someone on the point of dying doesn't get any external input to what remains of their consciousness. That's no surprise at all. It's basic physiology.

The thing about 'near death experiences' is that the person survives them, so that you can't say they're what 'happens after death'. The person who had them had a functioning mind, capable of remembering what happened to the mind at that time.

[sam sarrha]

50. been my experience most psychologists belong in hell.. Xingism is Fucked up, Islam is Really fucked

up..Really Really fucked up..

to bad Religion always messes up a good Alternate Perceptual Experience..

[cosmik debris]

51. FYI The OP has left the building for a long dirt nap.

RIP

[sam sarrha]

56. wil he be back to tell us about it...?

:popcorn: :sarcasm: :rofl:

[cosmik debris]

57. .

:thumbsup:

[KakistocracyHater]

61. no, didn't hear this 1

but I've had a casual interest in astral travel/out of body experiences for 20 plus years. http://www.globalideasbank.org/natdeath/ndh3.html a book chapter 3 Near Death Experiences 1993 edition.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/tart/survival/important.html survival of bodily death website, UC Davis

http://www.riverstyx.com/ a mere fun site, cgi animated attempt at mapping places outside the skin.