Educated Catholics Have Sown Dissent And Confusion In The Church, Claims Bishop

[DeSwiss]

Educated Catholics have sown dissent and confusion in the Church, claims bishop
University-educated Catholics are to blame for the crisis in the Church and the growth of secularism, according to the bishop charged with tackling the decline in Mass attendance.

The Telegraph
By Jonathan Wynne-Jones, Religious Affairs Correspondent
Last Updated: 9:12AM GMT 18 Nov 2008


The Rt Rev Patrick O'Donoghue

The Rt Rev Patrick O'Donoghue, the Bishop of Lancaster, has claimed that graduates are spreading scepticism and sowing dissent. Instead of following the Church's teaching they are "hedonistic", "selfish" and "egocentric", he said. In particular, the bishop complained that influential Catholics in politics and the media were undermining the Church.

While not naming names, he suggested that such people had been compromised by their education, which he said had a "dark side, due to original sin". Prominent Catholics in public life include Mark Thompson, the BBC's director general, and Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister. Bishop O'Donoghue, who has recently published a report on how to renew Catholicism in Britain, argued that mass education has led to "sickness in the Church and wider society".

"What we have witnessed in Western societies since the end of the Second World War is the development of mass education on a scale unprecedented in human history - resulting in economic growth, scientific and technological advances, and the cultural and social enrichment of billions of people's lives," he said. "However, every human endeavor has a dark side, due to original sin and concupiscence. In the case of education, we can see its distortion through the widespread dissemination of radical scepticism, positivism, utilitarianism and relativism. "Taken together, these intellectual trends have resulted in a fragmented society that marginalizes God, with many people mistakenly thinking they can live happy and productive lives without him.

"It shouldn't surprise us that the shadows cast by the distortion of education, and corresponding societal changes, have also touched members of the Church. As Pope Benedict XVI puts it, even in the Church we find hedonism, selfishness and egocentric behavior." The bishop said that Catholic graduates had rejected the reforms made in the second council of the Vatican, which introduced fundamental changes in issues such as liturgy and doctrine.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/3464073/Educated-Catholics-have-sown-dissent-and-confusion-in-the-Church-claims-bishop.html">MORE

- So if you're keeping score at home, that's:

Religion == Ignorance, Bliss, Promise of Heaven

Education == Hedonisim, Scepticism, Positivism, Utilitarianism and Relativism.

Therefore: Religion + Education =/= Happy Times At The Vatican
==============================================================================
DeSwiss


http://www.atheisttoolbox.com/">The Atheist Toolbox



"Prayer is just a way of telling god that his divine plan for
you is flawed -- and shockingly stingy" ~ Betty Bowers

[polichick]

1. Kind of hard to boondoggle the masses once they get educated.

[Liberal_in_LA]

3. Yup, that's why the catholic church was openly hostile to women getting college education as late as

the 1970s

[janet118]

41. My mother went to a Catholic women's college in the mid-forties

I graduated from the same college in the early 70s. We both, my mother and I, received an excellent liberal arts education. I also remember marching with Bill Baird (abortion rights advocate) with a bunch of my fellow students in the late sixties, being part of a strong contingent of anti-war and pro-civil rights activists, meeting with one of the first women's consciousness raising groups on campus and taking progressive classes in Black History, Social Movements and Marxism. I also remember some of us going to Catholic high schools in the area to present the anti-Vietnam War perspective in panel discussions.

I don't believe the Catholic Church has been particularly hostile to women getting an education. At least, no more so than the general public.

[DeSwiss]

7. Sounds to me....

...like they're getting really desperate.

- Because they're now forced to resort to the truth...

[formercia]

40. Resorting to the truth

and saying it is a bad thing.

If I was uneducated, I might swallow that rationale.

:rofl:

[roguevalley]

46. if that guy could get laid, half his problems would go away. who

volunteers? :evilgrin: (You have to be eighteen.)

[HeresyLives]

2. This is the danger in all of it.

It's 'education' that's 'always at fault' for the decline in church-followers.

That's why it's so important to support education everywhere - before it gets banned.

[DeSwiss]

8. Agreed!

[mediaman007]

4. Jesse Ventura: Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded

Ventura is also quoted as telling Playboy: "Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business."

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/ventura1.htm

In other words, the bishops in one mouthful, explains why we have religion.

[DeSwiss]

9. "In other words, the bishops in one mouthful, explains why we have religion."

- Yep. Pretty much...

[rug]

14. So is wrestling.

[Odin2005]

51. At least Professional Wrestling admits that is an act.

Religion, on the other hand, tries to pass of fantasy as truth.

[Odin2005]

50. Ventura is totally right.

That's a quote I use very often.

[Submariner]

5. Gee....excuse me for not being so stoopid as to believe in your 6,000 year old universe

or that all non-catholics will burn in the flames of Hell for eternity. When you dorks kept ramming that garbage down my throat for a dozen years, what did you expect? Your whole imaginary sky-person gimmick is just all worn out. Bye bye...

[DeSwiss]

13. And in their inimitable style....

...these guys seem to think that by railing at education, somehow people will reject it. Because its all BAD, BAD, BAD. But what it demonstrates more clearly, is what the Church FEARS most.

- People thinking for themselves....

[Zynx]

6. The Church would be wise to look at local pockets of success where

individual clergy members have successfully figured out messages that bridge the church doctrine with the modern world in ways that don't turn off people with half a brain. However, the Vatican is hopelessly insular. They never get the message.

[DeSwiss]

16. "The Church would be wise..."

- I think that I've found a "slight" flaw in your proposition.

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom; and in all thy getting, get understanding. - Proverbs 4 : 7

[dflprincess]

22. I like the one "Jesus save -

and sometimes he makes back ups"

[DeSwiss]

24. So what that would essentially be saying is....

THOSE WHO FAIL TO BACKUP ARE DOOMED TO PERDITION!!!

- Kinda catchy!

[Taverner]

10. This goes back all the way to the Garden of Eden

The tree of knowledge, or the tree of life?

I'll take knowledge myself :)

[DeSwiss]

17. You win the CUPIE DOLL!!!

Exactly.

- And don't forget, it was the woman what done it!!!!

[Taverner]

43. Thank you girls! I appreciate my free-thinkin mind!

[FloridaJudy]

39. Yeah. I always thought we should be grateful to Eve:

Otherwise we'd still be running around the garden picking lice out of each other's hair and scratching our armpits. Maybe freepers still want to live that way, but I prefer art and literature and music and other high-falutin' Elitist stuff.

[DeSwiss]

54. I know I'm grateful!!!!

[BrklynLiberal]

11. Sooo. The Catholic Church prefers ignorance? Does not come across very well.

This person must be a very good Catholic, He appears to be one of the most ignorant people in the Church. I think he probably still favors burning witches, Dunking of sinners, and is sorry the Inquisition ever ended.

[DeSwiss]

19. All churches prefer ignorance.

It was the people's ignorance about the world around them that gave religion its start. Its foothold. And without ignorance, there is little role for them otherwise. It is what defines them. Ignorance and division is mostly what they have to offer now.

And the problem with the idea of the Inquisition ending, is that it never did. They just http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dxcdf.html">changed the name.

- It won't be over until they are....

[BrklynLiberal]

27. You are absolutely right....

[skepticscott]

32. Not just ignorance about the world

but ignorance about the Bible itself. It's no coincidence that the Protestant reformation went hand-in-hand with not only the more widespread availability of Bibles due to mass printing, but their availability in vernacular languages. Once that happened, the ability to actually read the Bible (and not just be spoon fed and indoctrinated) would never again be restricted to an elite few, and the genie was out of the bottle.

[DeSwiss]

35. The Church, in the beginning,

punished those who would translate and print THE WORD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale">Some were labelled heretics and were hunted down. Tortured, made to recant their ways, or killed and had all their holdings confiscated by the church.

But eventually The Church realized that the people (largely uneducated), weren't going to read it. But it, like so many other forms found throughout the history of all religions before them, it proved to be a wonderful talisman. It is like the rosaries and the beads. The incense and the oils. The ritual, the incantations, the repetition of words and thoughts and ideas until they become one with the speaker. All the accoutrements of the trade. Which speaks loudly to the state of education in the US when compared with the Europeans from the perspective of religious participation as a gauge of its quality. Or lack, thereof.

In the end, for any religionist to actually read these tomes, and with any contextual understanding of what they're reading, it will probably never happen. Its odd, seeing how what they believe could only be the most important aspect of living from their standpoint. One would think they'd want to know as much as possible about this heaven they're vying to get into.

But education in America is something else. Religion sees to this. As do the local Boards of Education, from whence it springs. Religion and its dogma has becomes inculcated into society because our history is intertwined with it. The ethos of America is seen by most religionists as a "god-ordained and inspired" venture. These are the same ones who continue to insist upon our "Christian Founding Fathers." But the Catholic church, by defining who and what they are by issues relating to civil freedom (gay) and personal freedom (abortion), they now stand to lose on both with the tide turning as it now is.

- And I don't think they have a Plan B....

[QueenOfCalifornia]

12. Excellent post

As an educated atheist I pretty much have to laugh like crazy at the obviousness of this. :rofl:

The cartoon is priceless. :D

[DeSwiss]

20. Thank you!!!

- Here's another for ya!

[QueenOfCalifornia]

15. K&R

Because the truth is fun.

[DeSwiss]

21. Yes it is.

- Isn't it???

[charlie]

18. "Distortion of education"

Knowledge is sin. Then go back to Latin. Better yet, take up Navajo. Then no one will know what the fuck you're on about and we'll live in the holiest of holy worlds.

[DeSwiss]

23. Another way to put it:

Are you going to believe me, or your lying eyes???

- I like what George Carlin said: "you have to give them credit. Its the best load of BULLSHIT ever conceived!!!!"

[nc4bo]

25. Ummm, Rev Patrick O'Donoghue? You, are one of several weakest links. Goodbye. nt

[dflprincess]

28. I gather the Rev O'Donoghue is not a Jesuit? (eom)

[DeSwiss]

30. Oddly, now that you mention it....

...he is a http://www.lancasterdiocese.org.uk/Bishop.asp">Jesuit.

Rt Rev Patrick O’Donoghue, Fifth Bishop of Lancaster
Bishop O'Donoghue was born in Mourne Abbey, Co Cork, on 4th May 1934, and is the middle of five children of farmers Daniel and Sheila O'Donoghue. He was educated at the Patrician Academy in Mallow, Co Cork. He came to Britain in 1959 for seminary training, first at http://www.rhs.ac.uk/bibl/wwwopac.exe?&database=dcatalo&rf=200603794&SUCCESS=false&SRT2=ti&SEQ2=ascending">Campion House, Osterley, Middlesex, then from 1961-67 at Allen Hall seminary when it was at St Edmund's, Ware, Hertfordshire. He was ordained priest for the Archdiocese of Westminster on 25th May 1967. The Second Vatican Council coincided with his student days as a seminarian, and its spirit and teaching have influenced and directed his ministry through the years.

http://www.lancasterdiocese.org.uk/Bishop.asp">LINK

Which only goes to show that in the end, they all must bow down to the dogma. Otherwise, what's the point?

- The free dental plan???



on edit: spelling

[dflprincess]

44. That does surprise me

But I suppose even the Jesuits have someone who graduates at the bottom of the class.

[DeSwiss]

47. So, in the ways of The Dubya.....

...you're saying he probably graduated at the bottom of the class, and yet became the Bishop of Lancaster. Hmmm. Okay, I guess I can see it. I mean after all, its only religion. And that's a lot like politics.

- Just say Jesus enough times, and you're in!

[dflprincess]

52. Much like Dubya

Actually, at some point in this thread, the discussion brings up that adherence to a strict conservative viewpoint has meant more to the last few Popes than intelligence or spirituality.

[DeSwiss]

55. When one sets one's self up....

...as the arbiter and way-station to salvation, then adherence to what that authority says becomes more important than anything. Anything.

Intelligence has never been venerated by religions, except to the extent in how it might serve its own ends. And whenever intelligence is honored, it is always done with the caveat that it came from god. Man's puny endeavors and struggles to understand things mean nothing, otherwise. It has always been a matter of degree. How much to press-on the gas, how much to press-on the brake.

- But as always, they're the ONLY one's allowed in the driver's seat and with their hands on the wheel....

[DeSwiss]

29. Yeah....

...I could see early retirement in his future. I mean he said it himself, "nobody goes to church anymore in England."

- He should just think of it as "down-sizing" to the new economy.

[MichiganVote]

26. Cuz' all those over educated priests who fucked kids were just so ineffective you know....

:crazy:

[DeSwiss]

33. Oh, I don't know...

...they seemed to have been quite effective in helping to spur the mass-movement toward the exits of The Church!

Not to mention, the Catholics educated enough to tell the Church to go screw itself and voted for Barack Obama. They are realizing that they are losing their grip upon things. The government that was just elected here in the US is seen by them as their enemy. And their followers help put them there. How galling must that be?

- Is it the beginning of "The Great Un-Doing?" We'll see...

[MichiganVote]

34. LOL. I think this was the original republican dogma for dogshit reasoning.

[trotsky]

31. There was a time when everyone was a believer, and the Church reigned supreme.

This time was called the DARK AGES.

[DeSwiss]

36. And its probably a good thing it WAS dark....

...otherwise we'd have even more accounts of the nasty shit they did to people during those http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/dark-age.htm">Dark Ages.

[nichomachus]

37. This is the result

Of John Paul II and Ratzinger's 30-year effort to name only bishops who were right-wing ideologues, rather than intelligent -- or even holy -- people.

The Catholic hierarchy is a rat's nest of freaking lunatics. They've been reduced to ranting like second-rate televangelists.

[dflprincess]

45. Actually, it started with Paul VI

when he made Humanae Vitae a limitus test for advancement in the Church.

[DeSwiss]

48. Well, that's one way to look at it.

I go back much further to where it all went wrong.

- Like around 6,000 years ago....

[immoderate]

38. Sounds like one of Newt's advisors.

--IMM

[DeSwiss]

49. You sure???

- I thought Newtie's head pointed the other way....

[Hydra]

42. You know, I feel much better now that they spelled it out so clearly

I got kicked to the curb for reading the book and doing what it said. Apparently they don't WANT people to think about/do what the book says- they want people devoted to the institution and the people in it.

I think that violates the first commandment, does it not?

6 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

7 you shall have no other gods before me.

8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,

[DeSwiss]

53. Well, there's the real problem.

The Book. Its simply taken at face value. Who vetted The Book? If one is going to predicate their lives now, eternity after, and everything they do in-between, based upon what's in The Book, then shouldn't they at least try to determine its veracity?

Few that own The Book know that much of it -- its very premise -- is largely a collection of myths and stories from other, older religions. A Book which is a plagerized, modified, and updated version of those stories, written to reflect Judaism and Christianity's values, beliefs, prophets, villains and heroes.

6 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
Where's the proof of captivity? Other than from The Book?

7 you shall have no other gods before me.
How can there be other gods? Who created them? God? Why create your own competition? And if they're false, why get jealous and worry?

8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Wouldn't this also have to include statuary of Jesus? Mother Mary? The Saints?

9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,
A jealous god? A jealous, mean-spirited, hateful, murderous god. But one who loves us. Why punish others for "crimes" they didn't commit? Is this the vaunted religious morality we're to aspire to? Why does this not make sense in every other human endeavor, but it's supposed to make sense when speaking about Yahweh?

- Maybe all this made sense to people 6,000 years ago. But what else did Bronze-Age people believe back then, that people still believe now? Except for The Book?

[Hydra]

56. :D

That's what I was pointing out- ignoring everything else(which you shouldn't), here is supposedly god's first law. Basically:

"You worship me."

And from the same church:

"You worship us."

[DeSwiss]

58. EXACTLY!!!

[judasdisney]

57. Torture is a sacrament

[DeSwiss]

59. In what respect judasdisney???

[judasdisney]

60. In the Opus Dei, Knights of Malta, Inquisition respect. Notice the Church's priorities about what's

"intrinsic evil".

[DeSwiss]

61. Oh!

That respect!

So you mean the gobbledygook that they peddle. The rituals, and the incense while wearing their solemn dark robes of authority. Candles burning and spitting out, as the moans of human anguish filter through the air and the last gasps of life snuff out. The preacher's voice intoning darkly speaking to the seriousness of it all. As he reads his blessing for more of it. Where they sanctioned anything and everything they did. And got away with it. And still are.

For me that is probably the one aspect of Christianity that I could never understand how it seemed constantly overlooked. If it were any other organization with the treacherous history such as the Church has, it would be branded as outlaw. Like the Mob, who no doubt, patterned their organization by the Vatican. Because it was the most successful organization they knew. Over the centuries, the Church has connived, threatened, maimed, killed, stolen, promoted several wars, and tortured and wrecked havoc upon people's lives. And its done this from its very beginnings.

- So how it is possible, that anyone could ever believe that anything good could come from that?