Mumbai - every time this kind of thing comes up I think "religion?"

[Taverner]

We don't know who did it at this point, but a logical guess would be Islamic Extremists. Once again, religion works in a counterproductive fashion towards the human race.

Isn't it time to grow up and stop acting like stupid, mad spoiled children about a given belief? Really!

[tabatha]

1. Watch this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x245366

[Taverner]

3. I'm not saying attack - I'm just saying who the real enemy is

Religion, whether it carries a cross down Via de la Rosa or whether it flies to heaven on a winged horse...

Religion is belief without evidence, which will ALWAYS lead you into violence

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. Don't believe your premise is correct

as you say "ALWAYS"--so you are saying the Quakers, for example, are a violent group because of their belief system?

[Taverner]

6. The more they leave faith and come to reason, the more 'human' they become

They are ethical BECAUSE they follow reason

Because they have turned away from an aspect from the root of their religion that is counterproductive

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Mysticism leaves reason behind

in the way you look at it. And yet mysticism teaches tolerance and forgiveness, and stresses working upon one's own character rather than judge another's.

From your posts, I'd say you are at a stage in your life where reason and logic are to be prized. That is well and good for you. But realize others may still be ethical and non-violent but come to that stance by means of faith and spirituality. That doesn't mean one path is right, the other wrong; it just means that there are many paths that lead to the same goal.

[wryter2000]

21. Peace and gentleness is part of the Quaker religion

I've read most of a book about non-Jews who saved Jews during the holocaust. Many of them were priests and nuns. Many were lay people who believed they were doing what their God wanted.

[Evangelical Atheist]

29. Quakerism did a phenomenal job with Nixon

[quaker bill]

36. Nixon was raised by Quakers

of an entirely different sort, evangelical Friends. He was not a practicing Friend, as if he were such, he would likely never have run for office.

While we may have a tiny bit of responsibility for Nixon, we are also the only Church to have won the Nobel Peace Prize.

By the way, we also had a major role in founding the ACLU.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Yes--we shouldn't blame the craziness on a faith

but rather those who abuse that faith. Our policies as a nation should be to stand beside those religious factions that are progressive--who want universal human rights, espouse tolerance, and are for secular rather than religious government. The Sufis are an example of this--kindly check out the latest Smithsonian Magazine:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Faith-and-Ecstasy.html

[Taverner]

4. Or Faith itself

Faith makes Mohammed Atta fly a 747 into a building - he "knows" there are 42 virgins waiting for him.

Faith makes a man shoot an abortion doctor, because he is doing God's 'will'

Faith is the enemy...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. That's your opinion

but people can have faith in a lot of things. I have faith that Obama will lead us out of the morass we are in. By what I am hearing you say, this is not a good thing....

[Taverner]

9. No you don't - you have evidence that he will lead us out

I can cite all kinds of examples of why, based on evidence, he will do this.

Your "faith" is merely a hypothesis grounded in evidence.

True faith is flying a plane into a building, because you "know" there are 42 virgins awaiting you in your afterlife - just because some bronze age text told you so.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

14. That is your definition of faith

Mine is different--faith is when one makes personal decisions not based upon evidence or a logical outcome, but through intuition and feelings that this is what is to be done.

And let us remember that the Qur'an doesn't "tell" anyone anything--it is a book that is interpreted by people. Those who wished harm on the US interpreted the Qur'an in this way--and not all Muslims do. Many believe that one discovers one's one meanings in that book--and in other books and documents.

[Taverner]

18. But think any time you go on a reality other than what can be verified, you have bloodshed

[laconicsax]

28. Please, the Koran is not a bronze age text.

It's much more recent.

[Boojatta]

15. 42?

If Mohammed Atta gets only 42 virgins, then he might visit Customer Service to ask what happened to the additional 30 virgins he was expecting.

[Schema Thing]

16. deflation

[Boojatta]

23. If it were deflation, then 72 currency units

could be exchanged for more than 72 virgin raisins/maidens.

[Schema Thing]

25. oops. you're absolutely right. It's inflation.

[lib2DaBone]

8. These were not Islamic extremeists.... (imho)

watching several nightly news casts..(NBC and NPR) it is reported that 2 of the shooters were british born Pakistanis.

Witness reported that most of the shooters spoke perfect Hindi language and wore American T Shirts and Jeans... not typical of "religious' extremists.

The American Embassy was not targeted and other high value targets were spared for more "media Valuable" targets.

It would seem that if the CIA/Mossad wanted to move the war on terror into Pakistan.. this would be a good catalyst.

[Taverner]

11. OK - let go for evidence

Do we have any evidence that supports this claim?

Like I said, at this point we are lacking in evidence, and only have previous behavior to go on.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. some more information about the terrorists here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3622202

Seems they were recruited and told that they would be coming home, so they didn't think it was a suicide mission.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. If they were British (and the British govt says the Indian govt has said there's no evidence)

then they almost certainly would be religious extremists. What else would get someone British to go and probably die while massacring innocent people in a far off land?

The American embassy is in New Delhi; but if you mean the consulate, then I have no doubt it is heavily protected, just like American consulates and embassies all over the world.

Any reason for you bringing up Mossad? Are they your usual suspects?

[Meshuga]

32. ...

"Any reason for you bringing up Mossad? Are they your usual suspects?"

Silly questions. What group do you think is trying to dominate the world for centuries? :sarcasm:

[Dorian Gray]

22. Being born

in Britain wouldn't preclude one from being an Islamic extremist.

[Evangelical Atheist]

30. When in doubt, blame the Jews eh?

Did David Duke bring you this evidence from Iran, or are you getting your anti-Jew bullshit directly from the Ayatollah's and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?

Lib2DaBone, I didn't realize being an anti-Semite was liberal.

[uppityperson]

34. I'm glad this extremist is TS'd. To OP, I'd call it Extremist Fundamentalism issues

Will wait and see which religion, but seems Extremist Fundamentalism is a big problem

[Taverner]

35. Al Queda often advises its members to dress like Westerners, to avoid being caught

And being from the UK would not preclude one from being an Islamic extremist.

[Dorian Gray]

37. You are blaming

CIA/Mossad for this horrible tragedy/travesty?

[Schema Thing]

12. I was driving and listening to the radio during 9/11

when I heard that the second plane had slammed into WTC (thus confirming that this was terrorism) I spontaneously shouted "FUCK RELIGION!".

[valerief]

26. I said, "Fuck Bush," figuring he made it happen on purpose. nt

[xen]

13. Going to destroy Us

God and religion is going to destroy us all yet.Lately I notice incidents have been climbing, with religion at the heart of almost all the serious problem we have in the world today. As the years go by,we get closer and closer to the brink of total destruction,due to God and religion
We have Evil doers,and Infidels,
Thing is, both ends of the fundie spectrum has more in common than differences,I just don't know why they don't get along.
Both are Male Chauvinistic,totally Intolerant,and Hate-full.
It is like,My God is bigger,Better and Badder than your God.
I wish there was a way to get all these people overdosed on God and send them on a planet to obliterate each other and leave me and others out of it:mad:

[wryter2000]

20. I think

Fanaticism. There are lots of great religious people in the world. In fact, religion motivates a lot of good acts, too.

[GoesTo11]

24. Makes me think of one specific religion

where leaders of at least some subgroups are saying this is glorious action. Within this one religious community, terrorism has become institutionalized as a way of life, as it were.

Flame away.

[Taverner]

33. No flames here. Theocratic Islam IS a threat.

[Crunchy Frog]

27. I'm thinking more tribalism going under the label of religion.

I'd guess it has more to do with group identity than with any given set of beliefs.

[Meshuga]

31. I agree with blaming extremist faith

Since it can be used as a tool for this kind of stuff. There is no doubt about that. But the word "religion" is too broad of a term when one is looking for a term to cast blame in this situation. It gives the impression that you are also blaming others who fall under the same label and (like you) find such acts reprehensible.

For example, I'm an American who disagrees with many groups of Americans whom I see as embarrassing hate groups and I would probably suffer harm in some parts of the world just far the fac that I am an American and grouped with them and grouped with foreign policies by my government that I oppose.

To some, being an American represents these groups I am not affiliated with or the oppression or suffering some people might suffer because of American foreign policy. Is it fair that I might be harmed because others see me as something I am not just because I am an American? Probably not. Especially when I am against such policies. But the American label will get me in trouble. But that's life.