Jesus Christ provides a cultural desire

[Taverner]

I am an Atheist

In Fact I think Jesus never existed

HOWEVER, whether he existed or not provides no impetus for this argument.

The archetype he represented, the everyman who comes into the world, secretly of the elite, but never disclosing - even until his death at a horrifying end, which eventually frees us all from our guilt - is a genuine desire in our psychological makeup.

So as Michel Onfray suggested - whether he physically existed is irrelevant, he exists in enough minds to make the question irrelevant.

So this archetype speaks to something that lies within our subconscious. We long to have a 'saviour.'

We long for someone to save us all. Whether its Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, Barack Obama or FDR - we long for this "magic" individual to come along and free us from our toils. The old Spirituals of Antebellum America attest to this: just read the lyrics to "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" to see this in lyrical form.

So we as a culture, oppressed by our own spirits, forced to, in Chuck Palahniuk's words "Work jobs we hate to buy shit we don't need" longs for such a figure.

Just an observation...

[stopbush]

1. Not all of us look for or even desire a saviour.

Including some of us who received an heavy indoctrination in Christianity as kids.

Many kids desire a figure like Santa to bring them gifts, but as adults, we don't need to believe in Santa to get a good feeling when we treat our kids to gifts.

And the yearning for an elite everyman who frees us from our guilt? Huh?

[Taverner]

2. You represent where we, as a society, SHOULD go

But not all of us are there, yet

My point was to inspire this kind of discussion

Mankind, when it is lazy, tends to look towards nonsensical, yet almost innate solutions...

When we are sick, we seek a doctor...

When we are hungry, we seek a restaurateur...

And it is no surprise that we, as a species, seek an "expert" when we have the questions we cannot answer...

Keep in mind the "expert" is going on Bronze and maybe Iron Age solutions for said malady

But isn't it time for Science to address this?

[dark forest]

3. Just a question

Has there ever been a historical, literate culture where such was not the case? I don't include primitive, tribal cultures because frankly I have no desire to live in a culture without decent plumbing.

[Taverner]

4. Of course not! Jesus was not the first

And he will not be the last

He is a readily available icon in Western (and Eastern) mythology and literature that describes a personality type (the martyr) that has been replicated, and is in itself a replication or a personality type.

Thing is - this icon came from previous literature, whether Mithras or Mani.

[RandomThoughts]

5. The freeing from guilt is essential for a person.

Many times a person that feels guilty can not move forward, they obsess with shame or guilt. And many times this develops into a form of self dislike. And most people with self dislike transfer that to others and strike out at others. I think the idea that sadist hate themselves is probably true.

So almost every spirituality or religion has methods for forgiveness, or if you believe as I do, God gave us grace so we could be forgiven, as told in scripture.

So there is a second element to it. Knowing you are loved, and can be forgiven, can allow for moving on to other challenges without the negative feelings, or negative spirituality of guilt sadness and even self hate. It is an interesting concept.

There is a form of thought, the waiting for the rapture crowd(no offense intended), that could fit your waiting for a savior argument. But many followers of Jesus try and make life better for people they know by trying to live in his teachings, and it is through that spirit that both teaches and forgives, that they are saved, not because he will come and save them, nor make everything better, but because he already has saved them.

(As far as quoting fight club, I think the show is not of the best spirit, but that does not mean it can't say somethings that make sense. Even something that tries to lead you to destruction will say somethings that are correct, most lies are woven with truths.

So it can be true that part of our lives are chasing things we don't need, and subjugating ourselves in unhappiness to get those things. but in that book/movie it gives a solution that involves violence, blind following, lack of thought, and self destruction through lesser methods.)

Interesting observations though.

[Taverner]

6. Thing is I don't believe in any kind of god

We evolved here, by way of natural selection

For some reason, the selfish gene was defeated by the empathy gene

And as Dawkins does, I attribute this to religion

[customerserviceguy]

9. Same here

but perhaps that empathy gene is closely linked to the "need a savior" gene, or set of traits that make one susceptible to the common themes of religion.

It's interesting to think about.

[RandomThoughts]

21. well if everything you believe is survival of the fittest.

If you do not believe in any intervention, just selection.

Then I offer this argument to a concept of conflict between selfishness and empathy.

Game theory.

Survival of the fittest includes survival of your neighbor. The idea that if everyone in the village is selfish, it would fail to compete with other villages.

So even selective pressure can explain why selfishness fails. The tough part is getting peoples villages bigger by increasing identification with other cultures allowing for growth of empathy.

But I degrees.

Another example

If one village leader claimed he gets all the women, his selection in future genes would be higher, but in a weak or two, a few cave men would demote him. So although his win was highest with pure selfishness, without taking into effect totality of win of both self and competitors he still lost.

This is also why selfishness and secrecy go together most of the time.

[liberalmuse]

7. Lovely.

Jesus is kind of my role model, even though I'm an atheist. I love his sermon on the mount speech. We have all these heroes, but they are all really us, at our utmost potential. Funny how that works. Being very far from the mark, I am merely an observer who greatly appreciates those who are closer to the mark than I am.

[Taverner]

8. He doesn't have to exist to be a role model

I love Dawkins' "Atheists for Jesus" campaign

[WARNING]

12. Atheists

Excuse me please as I don't know how to enter your conversation but may I ask you what to you is an atheist since you claim that as you.
Thank you, Michael

[Taverner]

14. Atheist = no god

However, just like in literature, we can have archetypes show themselves in religion.

[liberalmuse]

16. Exactly.

I find the 'savior' archetype, which has show up throughout our human history, utterly fascinating.

[Silent3]

10. I suppose to me "salvation" of some sort sounds good...

...if "salvation" can be used in a very broad sense to mean an escape from the negative aspects of life, or perhaps an escape from mortality, but it's not something I'd want personified, embodied in some individual I'd need to emulate or grovel to in order to obtain salvation.

[Why Syzygy]

11. It's really more basic than that.

Why "guilt"? There has to be the observation of duality. I don't share your optimism that the empathy gene has overwhelmed the selfish gene. They are both present in each of us in varying degrees and times. Only cold blooded animals have no way to empathize. But, I don't know them to hoard either. They abandon their own eggs. Can't call them selfish.

It's about a choice. That's the archetype. If one begins to question this state of duality we experience, (selfish vs. empathetic), to use your terms, choices are made. If one agrees that darkness is an experience, then one must conclude that light exists.

[Taverner]

19. Oh I don't think it overwhelmed it, but I do think its in the majority

[elshiva]

13. Taverner, I was thinking of this today.

There seems to be a lot of superheros and savior figures in popular culture.

[Taverner]

15. Mankind is longing for a superhero

However, that can be easily exploited

[Manifestor_of_Light]

17. Yes, Jesus represents an archetype.

Mithras, Osiris, Apollo, Prometheus, Dionysus and so forth.

And if you check out popular culture there are many Christ allegories.

Examples: E.T. the Extraterrestrial, Tommy, The Day the Earth Stood Still (Gort is really close to "Gott"). Edward Scissorhands, The Green Mile, Groundhog Day, Superman.


With the passage of more than 100 years since Freud and Jung and Adler started delving into psychology, Jung gets more relevant and timeless.

[Taverner]

18. Exactly - and one might throw in Buddha and Krishna for good measure

And, I do think it translated heavily into the last election

Many even joked about how they thought Obama would "save" America...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

20. Christ, Krishna and Charisma all have the same root word.

Very interesting.