Yes Christianity IS losing in the religion war.

[Maraya1969]

For everyone who bitched at me for not using the right calculations when I tried to show that Christianity is going to lose it’s majority in the near future you can read essentially the same "CONCLUSION" that I came to at:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tren.htm

And I did not say that any one group is going to overtake Christianity. I said that the combination of other groups are going to overtake it. That is a big thing!

All the people who are clamoring for Plaques of the Ten Commandments at court houses and want children to pray in school and think Court room witnesses should place their hand on a bible and dedicate their lives to Jesus before they testify are going to be little weenies compared to the rest of the country in a much shorter period of time then they think – IF they even realize they are going to lose power in the first place. I’d bet most of them think that Jesus will save their superior status no matter what evidence is presented to them.

From this site: http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

It states that Christianity is clearly the leading religion by far at – 76.5%. The combination of all the other religions such as Judaism, Hindu, Muslim Deist Sikhism etc. would equal 23.5% of the population.

Christianity is growing at 5% per ten years. An average of all the “others” is growing at 153% per ten years. (1990 – 2000 figures). The religions with the highest growths are:


Deity + 717%
Sikhism + 338%
New Age + 240%
Hindu + 237%
Baha'I + 200%
Buddhism + 170%

And way down at the bottom is:

Christianity +5%

You don't even HAVE to calculate to realize that Christianity is going to lose its power sooner than later. If you were going to place your money on a stock with these growth rates which one would you buy?

According to ReligiousTolerance.org

“At the present rate of change, most Americans will be non-Christians by the year 2035 CE”


The percentage of American adults who identify themselves as Christians dropped from 86% in 1990 to 77% in 2001. This is an unprecedented drop.

<snip>

There appears to be a major increase in interest in spirituality among North Americans. However, this has not translated into greater church involvement.

<snip>

At the present rates of change, Islam will become the dominant religion in the world before 2050 CE.


The numbers of "unchurched" people has increased rapidly in the U.S. These are individuals who have not attended church in recent months. Agnosticism, Atheism, secularism are growing rapidly.

Interest in new religious movements (e.g. New Age, Neopaganism) is growing rapidly. In particular, Wiccans are doubling in numbers about every 30 months.

More at:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tren.htm


So when I said our grandkids are going to be bringing their prayer mats to school, facing Mecca and prostrating themselves 5 times a day I was joking. Actually I think they are going to learn how to smudge in science class, draw Pentagrams in Art and stay after school for rituals during the full moon.

[Melodybe]

1. Thanks again, for all of your hard work

I hope this gets lots and lots of responses.

kicked and nominated.

[Maraya1969]

27. Thanks Melodybe

You're so nice! :hi:

[lebkuchen]

2. Christianity is going down, as is the US and its military

all dragged through the mire, by BUSH.

[LaurenG]

6. I so agree with this

Frist, Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, Delay - all of these give Christianity a bad name. These peple have screwed a perfectly good religion and turned it into the religion of hate fear and greed.

[Arugula Latte]

8. I think it's always been so.

Yes, these evil morons have dragged modern-day Christianity through the dirt. However, at various times throughout history, such as during the Inquisition or the Salem Witch Hunts or the Crusades, others have done the same.

[Tux]

29. Perfectly good religion?

Like no one died over Jesus in history. Nope never did.

[LaurenG]

32. Of Course they did

People die over money too. Christianity in it's purest form is not dogmatic. It's not controlling, it's about being the best you-you can be. It's about being OK even if you screw up. It's about learning and loving and sharing. Man has bastardized Christianity. "You do not know it, yet you are gods". "These things and more shall ye do also". These things that Christ tried to tell us aren't being taught in Sunday School. The Church is not the same as Christ, though it should be it isn't, it is corrupt.

Christianity in it's purest form is a perfectly good religion. No one is saying that the others aren't as well. Not having any religion is fine as long as you feel deeply about it and it works for the person.

I personally believe that what we don't know goes far beyond what any man knows. It will all work out in the end...

[starroute]

48. The Roman Empire coopted Christianity

That was the point at which original Christianity -- whatever it may have been like -- was systematically turned into an instrument of social control. Even the Empire couldn't completely purge Christianity of either its status as a wisdom teaching or its natural affinity for the poor and dispossessed, but it did its best. Ever since then, anything that even approximates real Christianity has been labeled as heresy and crushed.

What's more, this corruption is built into the basic texts and teachings of the religion, because it happened before they were codified. It sure would be nice to see primitive Christianity make a comeback -- but I'm afraid that the parasite of imperial Christianity is far too tightly interwoven with its host to ever be successfully removed.

[Maraya1969]

58. You may not want to believe this - and maybe it is not true

but "The Course In Miracles" is supposed to be a message that Jesus's words were bastardized and HE came back to say "This is what I really meant"

It was "scribed" in the 70's by a professor of psychology at Columbia University and her friend. She started hearing a voice that in essence said: "This is a Course in Miracles, take notes". She thought she was losing her mind but she wrote down what she "heard" and her friend typed it out. I think it took three years to do. She was also an Atheist.

I've read a lot of people's interpretations of "The Course" and it is very beautiful. The message seems to me to be exactly what Jesus would have said. None of the craziness that modern Christianity is about.
Now I'm trying to go through the course - it has 356 daily "teachings" and you start with #1 and go on. I find that trying to follow it makes me feel better about myself and the world.

For whatever it's worth - I'm not selling anything!

[sarcasmo]

3. You left Atheism off your list, I am sure we are at least 1%

[AllegroRondo]

10. Atheism is between 5% and 12%

depending on how its defined.

[Stinky The Clown]

20. Does 'atheism' include agnostics or lapsed participants?

I call myself a 'lapsed participant' as opposed to a lapsed Catholic. I was raised Catholic, but no longer practice and no longer hold much of the man-made laws of the Catholic Church (meatless Fridays, Lenten give-ups, birth control, abortion, etc. etc. etc.). That said, I still pretty much believe in Jesus and Mary and Saints and a Trinity and .... and .... and ......

But now it is just the Church of Stinky the Clown, with only one adherent .... me.

Where do I (and the millions like me) fit in these calculations?

[Maraya1969]

28. I had to look up Deist - it sounds like Agnostic

2 entries found for deist.
de·ism Audio pronunciation of "deist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key
(dzm, d-)

n.

The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

[Stinky The Clown]

33. Reading that definition, I don't see myself

I don't think God has abandoned us.

[Maraya1969]

36. Well I tried eom

[starroute]

49. I'm sure the founding fathers wouldn't see themselves either

Many of them were deists -- but the men who wrote about "the laws of Nature and of Nature's God" certainly didn't believe in a god who had abandoned his creation.

More like a god who had gotten it right the first time and then had nothing more to do but sit back and enjoy the show.

[AllegroRondo]

53. Depends on who is doing the survey

some count only Strong Atheists - those who believe there is no supreme being of any sort - and some include agnostics and those who consider themselves non-religious.

[BurtWorm]

59. I would call you nonaffiliated Christian or Christian

If you believe in Mary, Jesus and the Saints, why don't you consider yourself a Christian?

[Maple]

13. According to this

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

there are 1.1 billion secular/nonreligious/agnostic/atheist.

Probably a lot more, but in many places in the world it's physically and socially dangerous to admit to being a non believer.

[sarcasmo]

18. Here in West Michigan it's very Dangerous to admit.

[Maple]

24. It is in most places

I think. Which is why I assume most atheists say they are theistic, but just happen to 'have no religion' at the moment. :D

Or list themselves as whatever they were as a child, RC or Protestant, even though they haven't been believers in years.

Makes life much easier. Even in countries where you don't have to make a public display of praying all the time.

It has been noticed, by the more vigilant, that I don't pray during food blessings and so on, and of course the swearing on the Bible part is accepted as the norm.

[Maraya1969]

41. What do you do if you have to swear on the Bible and you are atheist

or don't believe in the Bible. I've been to court recently here - Florida - and I just had to raise my hand and say yes to, "Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth?" I don't think the judge used the word God.

Are there places that still use the Bible in court and what happens when someone does not want to swear on it?

[muriel_volestrangler]

54. In Britain, you can 'affirm' instead

which atheists, or theists who believe that swearing is wrong, will do. They have oaths and books for various religions.

General Oath:

*
I swear by Almighty God that I will faithfully try the defendant and give a true verdict according to the evidence

Islamic Oath

*
I swear by Allah that I will faithfully try the defendant and give a true verdict according to the evidence

Oaths & Affirmations:

*
I, being one of the United Brethren called Moravians, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will faithfully try the defendant and give a true verdict according to the evidence
*
I, being one of the people called Quakers, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will faithfully try the defendants and give true verdicts according to the evidence
*
I swear by the Gita that I will faithfully try the defendant and give a true verdict according to the evidence
*
I swear by Waheguru that I will faithfully try the defendant and give a true verdict according to the evidence
*
Affirmation I do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will faithfully try the defendant and give a true verdict according to the evidence

http://www.cjsonline.gov.uk/juror/walkthrough/the_court/faqs/

(that's for swearing in jurors - I think the witness procedure is the same).

[Maraya1969]

60. Oh how COOL is that!

Maybe I'd say: I'd swear by my fear of bad Karma to give a true verdict.

:bounce:

[Maraya1969]

26. The reason I left Atheism off is because there are no stats on

it at the site. It lists Atheism but for some reason it has no growth statistics. There was at least another one that didn't have any stats either. I didn't use them when I averaged out to get the 153%.

I'm not trying to dis Atheists. And I have no idea why they were left out.

[KansDem]

4. Just like a cornered or wounded animal...

Christians are now lashing out violently in an effort to save themselves.

[Stinky The Clown]

21. I think you're exactly right

And all the other religious yammer is just in reaction to that one fact. And that one fact is the real truism.

[Submariner]

5. I guess we should grow the Iraq crusade to Iran et al

and shove christianity down their throats. That'll learn them.

[Maraya1969]

45. Now you're sounding like Ann Coulter! eom

[phaseolus]

7. This illustrates part of their motivation...

...for being anti-immigration, often to the point of xenophobia. They probably are aware of the trends & they think that closing our borders will cut down on the growth of other faiths.

And yeah, I know they're still anti-immigration from largely Christian places like Mexico and Central America. Logical consistency ain't exactly their strong suit. They're just dickweeds...

[Arugula Latte]

9. The growth of the non-churched is great news.

My people!

No longer will we shut up and play along as the religious shove their myths down our throats.

[elshiva]

11. As a Christian, I am not worried about that at all!

Christians DO NOT have to be the majority and I wish that those RW wackos would get that through their minds. Atheism, Islam, Neopaganism all are great traditions! What do I care what religion my descendents will be as long as they are good, moral people! Jefferson said something like "What do I care if my neighbor worships 20 Gods or no Gods at all, as long as he is a good neighbor!"

[AmBlue]

15. And a hearty AMEN to that!!! n/t

[elshiva]

16. THANKS!

[Tux]

30. The problem

Is the soul and it's "need to be saved". If you aren't Christian, you're evil since you turned down Jesus and now worship Satan.

As long as people go along with the concept of soul, they will always be a threat. Much like the Sith, even 2 can destroy billions of lives.

[Kazak]

12. Religion war?

I don't think we have room for any more wars, thank you... :crazy:

[frictionlessO]

14. Very very good stuff... Hoping the Christians that are left are the kind

like here on DU. You know the ones you can at least have a sincere respect for and as they do you in return. Not the kill or convert fundanazis.

[elshiva]

17. Thanks for the vote of confidence! As queer person of faith

I hope they all just go away after giving us all this grief!

[frictionlessO]

34. Hey, believe me I empathize.

I think not being a majority for Christians will not be altogether a bad thing. I've known enough Muslims that I have very little doubt that we of the minority sprituality paths (I'm just eclectic as befitting my mutt like heritage, mostly pagan/taoist), will get a fair enough shake as we would normaly with non levitcus worshipping Christians. As long as we can manage to hold onto our quickly diminishing vanguards of freedom here in the states, that is. I'm not so certain about Islam being that much more of a majority vetween one or two other faiths.

Another thing is this information can be very skewed dpending on the parameters that they set for these numbers. I mean just thinkng of critical mass minus and added in the equation would make worlds of difference, I imagine???

Other than that may I ask which faith?? The post can be taken two different ways... and your welcome.

:)

[toddaa]

19. Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics

Percentages of growth are one of those nefarious techniques that little guys use to prove their are catching up with the big guys.

Let's say you have a population of a million people. In that population, 900,000 are Christians, 50,000 are Jews, 40,000 are Muslims, and Hindus, Sikhs, Wiccans, and Buddhists each have 2,500.

Let's do the math.

Christians gain 50,000 new converts. That's only 5% growth. The Buddhists double their growth for a 100% increase. Who wins? The Christians. As the Buddhist numbers grow, they will begin to level out because the pool will become more competitive. You cannot expect them to maintain a consistant 100% growth forever. Meanwhile, the Christian population growing at a steady 5% is just going to remain a juggernaut.

Sorry Buddhists.

[Maple]

25. Depends on how

they're gaining 'converts'.

One major religion baptizes people who have been dead for centuries, and would never even have heard of the religion.

Then they announce they are the 'fastest-growing' religion.

[Maraya1969]

46. What religion baptizes dead people????

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

51. LDS

In fact, they've gone through public genealogy sites and have taken the names from family trees and "baptised" (called "sealed") the people listed therein. The LDS church says they don't condone the practice, but I know it is done, as my own family trees were hacked in this manner, and even LIVING members of my family were "baptised" without permission. Supposedly, one is to get permission of family members/descendants before doing this, but some don't.

A few years back, the LDS church got into trouble with Jewish groups when it was found they'd done wholesale "baptisms" of the victims of the Holocost.

[Maraya1969]

57. OH MY GOD!

"A few years back, the LDS church got into trouble with Jewish groups when it was found they'd done wholesale "baptisms" of the victims of the Holocaust."


This is just SICK. How DARE they?

:puke:

[Zhade]

64. They're STILL doing it. There was a piece in the news recently about it.

NT!

[Zhade]

63. The cult known as Mormonism.

Sorry, any lurking Mormons - I'm an ex, and yes, it's a cult.

[manic expression]

39. Not exactly

less and less people consider themselves Christians. Look at the drop in Christians in that time frame. It is not going to be one group that may overtake Christianity, but all non-Christian groups (including Atheists and Agnostics) as a whole have a good chance of doing so.

[Maraya1969]

44. I think on that site it said Christians are losing a point a year

And after all the fiascoes of the Bush occupancy I think they are going to lose more.

I'm fairly sure that in the beginning of the 1990's Christianity was not losing as many adherents as it is today. The 5% is a number for a ten year period.

Look at the number of us here who have moved away from our Christian upbringings. (And I do not mean any disrespect for those who are still Christian. The ones here are not the idiots that are ruining the country.) In my family of origin 25% has left. Not such a big deal considering there were only 4 people but the fact that I got out WAS a big deal. It wouldn't have happened in my mother's generation.

[LittleClarkie]

22. Didn't know I was in a footrace

Eh, whatever.

[Cocoa]

23. this is playing right into their hands

this is doomsday stuff that scares poor people into voting for the party of the rich.

[Shallah Kali]

31. This is exactly one of the reasons the fundies are so paranoid

I read a recent press release from a fundie group about a book or video that denounced Harry Potter claiming it would lead kids into witchcraft. It quoted statistics about the rapid growth in recent years of that religion. This sort of thing apparently scares the dickens out of 'em.

OK I googled and I found that press release:

Hour of the Witch to Precede the Next Potter: How Parents Can Keep Their Kids from Being Bewitched
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/4/prweb227164.htm

But are these harmless fantasies? Is there more behind the Harry Potter movement, as the controversy that surrounds this series suggests? Could sinister spirits be lurking behind the best-selling books?

Hour of the Witch: Harry Potter, Wicca Witchcraft, and the Bible (April 1, 2005, Destiny Image Publishers, ISBN# 0-7684-2279-5, $13.99) by veteran author and media personality Steve Wohlberg scrutinizes these popular tales from a spiritual perspective. By thoroughly examining the first five volumes in the series, noting other books on the subject (both for and against), as well as holding them up to the test of the scriptures, Hour of the Witch demonstrates to Christian parents how an overwhelming fascination with the “fictional” Potter is leading to a huge increase in the real-life practice of Wicca Witchcraft (one of America’s fastest growing religions, as reported by National Public Radio).

“This is what we believe: no witchcraft is good witchcraft,” said Destiny Image Director of Marketing Don Nori. “We have a strong desire to reach and educate as many people as possible with the message of The Hour of the Witch.”

While Christians may know that the practice of witchcraft is biblically forbidden, many feel that fictional sorcery, séances, and spells woven throughout the children’s tales can not do any real harm. Wohlberg thinks they can, and this experienced author has done his homework to prove it. Hour of the Witch clearly demonstrates the long-lasting impact that images of witchcraft can leave on impressionable young minds, and the dangers involved.

This sounds like the guy read that article at The Onion about kids worshiping evil because of the HP books and was one of those who took is seriously :rolleyes:

BTW this guy has a website to go with the book:
http://www.hourofthewitch.com/

[Maraya1969]

43. I don't think the Bible says this:

"While Christians may know that the practice of witchcraft is biblically forbidden"

Wicca was not even around during biblical days to my understanding. What the Hell are they talking about?

[tmorelli415]

35. STOP STOP STOP STOP!!!!!! What the F*ck are you thinking?!!!!

THIS IS DISGUSTING! What the f*ck are you thinking?!!!

This type of thing has gone on too long among Democrats and it is time we stand up and say, 'if this how you approach the world you have no place in our party'. Period. I saw Dean's speech this morning on C-SPAN and when he mentioned how Christians could find a good home in the Democratic party you should have seen some of the people in the audience - they just sat there all pissy as if he was sucking up to the religious right. It made me sick to see those looks. Here's the deal: those religious right extremists are NOT Christians, and if you share our ideals you belong with us no matter what your faith may be. If you are an extremist you belong with the Republicans. Plain and simple.

bottom line is as long as we keep blasting away at anyone who identifies as Christian, we just look like a bunch of anti-religion, anti-Christian ragers. Yes, I am angry and disgusted by the so-called religious right and what they have done to our country, too. I don't blame you for being angry one bit - what they are doing is WRONG. But Christianity is NOT OUR ENEMY! Religious extremists are the enemy.

What would FDR say? What would RFK say? What would MLK say? What would JFK say? Do you really think that Robert Kennedy would have stood up in front of a group of people and barked t them about how Christianity was a dying religion, tossing out statistics and frightening them with thoughts of praying to Mecca? WHAT THE F*CK!!??

I AM ASHAMED of anyone in our party who does this! It is too often the same people who bark at us to act like 'real Democrats' rather than 'Republican lite'. Democrats do not use fear and intolerance as political weapons. We use our idealism and hope! When Democrats approach the world through the eyes of our idealism - when we truly live out those ideals NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING CAN STOP US!

[Singular73]

37. You know tmorelli, I say the same thing everytime.....

When will DU learn that just because the Republicans CLAIM Christianity, doesn't make it so.

They set up a strawman during Justice Sunday, and some Democrats are falling for it hook line and sinker.

We should NOT be against Christianity, in any brand, or flavor.

You want to lose politically? Keep up the anti-Christian fervor. You'll be bitching about how the dems are the minority for the next 30 years....

[slay]

38. Christianity, or lack there of, has NOTHING to do with being a Democrat

Sheesh. Come on now. Politics - religion - separate. Christianity is growing at an incredibly slow rate. So what. I don't see Dems trying to exclude Christians. But you shouldn't have to be Christian to be a Dem either. If you want to worry about something, worry about how it's almost a requirement that you be Christian if you want to be a republican.

[LittleClarkie]

40. Then why on a political forum

is there a thread cheering that they think Christians are losing the religion "war" (there's a war?)

Christianity has nothing to do with being a Dem, except that I like to make the point that Repubs don't own God.

Being Black has nothing to do with being a Dem either, but we do indeed have persons of color in our party as well.

Republicans are starting to try and own that issue as well, putting minorities in key positions so that when Dems rail against them they can say, "Look, Dems are racist!"

Would we post a thread cheering the decline of a minority because of Blackwell or Condi or Janice Brown?

[Zhade]

65. Who's cheering? The OP just pointed out a fact.

I saw no cheering.

[Maraya1969]

47. WAIT a minute!

How many emails have YOU gotten telling you the Patrick Henry, John Adams and whothefuckother wanted this to be a Christian country? complete with downright bald faced lying "quotes"? Have you ever gotten one pushing you to write: "In God we trust" on the back of dollar bills? Or on the back of your envelopes?

Have you gotten one that says, (paraphrase) "Jesus said that if you are ashamed of me I will be ashamed of you before the Father. So if you are not ashamed of Jesus pass this on."

Or the one that says that a little girl would not swear to "tell the truth and nothing but the truth" because the bailiff did not say "so help me God"? The title was: "Agree or Delete"

There is whole underground of email warmongers out there trying to delude people into believing that their country is About to be taken over by heathens and they have to act to keep God and Jesus from being swept to sea. Most people send them around not even thinking much about them but I have a pretty good idea it is some grass roots, "lets collect all the idiots" campaign designed to keep these types of people voting Republican - because at least in THIS administration, if you want to be a real Republican you have to believe in Jesus.

I think the information I provided is good to set some of them straight back on their asses.

[trotsky]

52. How does the national Democratic party "blast away" at Christians?

Did you watch the same national convention I did? Where every single speaker ended with "God Bless America"? Where one of the primary candidates was a Christian minister?

I for one am ashamed of people in the party who look to blame those of us who are not religious for "scaring" people away from the Democrats instead of taking a good, hard look at their own faith to find out just how easily it is used to control and manipulate people.

[Maraya1969]

42. P.S. to the moderator

I understand why you moved this to Theology but my original point was not really about religion per say. It is about how Christianity is going to lose its stronghold on the government and the "evangelical" vote is going to cease to be, AND to point out the dangers of trying to shove religion into government.


Maybe I did not make myself clear about that. But it's OK. :)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

50. spirituality

is indeed on the rise, and the neat thing about it is that it can take many forms. It is the essense behind religion, free from dogma, and very individualized, as it relies on inner work and personal experience. People I've met invovled in spirituality can be a member of a church or other religious group, or not a member of anything.....

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. Looking at growth rates is still simplistic

As I think was demonstarted in the earlier thread. It implies that the growth in each community is independent of the others - as if they are separate species that have no effect on each other - or, to use your simile, stocks that have no effect on each other. But there is a finite number of people in the US for the communities to be made up from.

Consider the growth factor by which Christians, all others, and the total (all in the adult population) increased from 1990 to 2001 - and then extend that multiplying factor for another 44 years, ie 4 more 11 year periods - using the figures in your link:

Adults       1990    2001 factor after 4 periods
(1000's)
Christian 151,225 159,030  1.051  194,039
Others     19,325  36,798  1.904  483,606
Total     170,550 195,828  1.148  340,382

So, not only will there be more non-Christians than Christians, there will be more non-Christian adults than total adults! Neat, eh?

Like your stock market, in reality you have to consider how much total money, or people, there are available to be divided up between the different possibilities.

In practice, it helps very little to use past changes in numbers to predict the future. You have to consider what happened in that era - was it easier to call yourself non-religious? Was there large immigration from certain areas? and whether or not those effects will continue at the same proportion, or in the same absolute numbers, or if they were a one-off effect.

"At the present rates of change" is a very loaded condition. Use it at your peril.

[catbert836]

56. Thanks for posting this.

This proves that the fundamentalists cannot win, and that they drive more people away from Xtianity than they bring to the table. As a Christian myself, I applaud your work.

[Maraya1969]

61. And speaking of smudging - I talked with a teacher friend

yesterday and she said that she and her class had a smudging ceremony recently. She also said that sometimes the choir sings Gospel Songs at assemblies where they would just as likely to have a presentation by the Gay Straight Alliance.


It seems some people are getting it!

[Kire]

62. that's all right

Armageddon's coming anyway

[Chauga]

66. It doesn't even seem like the same church into which I was born.

[Chauga]

67. It doesn't even seem like the same church into which I was born.