Mother Says Devil Made Her Kill Son

[rd_kent]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/26/otty-sanchez-mother-says-_n_245124.html


Ahh, the joys of religion. If one believes in god, does one also believe in the devil? Could the devil really be at fault?

[Towlie]

1. The guy who submitted it to Reddit had a funnier title.

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/94zmp/how_come_it_was_funny_when_flip_wilson_said_it/

[jobycom]

2. You can't blame religion for mental illness and post partum depression.

People look for understanding of the failings of their mind and latch on to concepts like God and the Devil. The real culprit is this uncivilized nation we live in, that thinks mental health care is a luxury for the rich.

[rd_kent]

4. I agree, but...

I also see believing in religion AS a form of mental illness.

[jobycom]

7. Religion is just a McGuffin. People use it to justify their own illnesses or to show humility

at their own greatness. I don't give religion that much power when good things happen, or that much blame when bad things happen. Jimmy Carter would still be a saint without it to motivate him, and James Dobson would still be a megalomaniac ass without it to blame.

My theory, anyway. Probably wrong, but it works for me. :)

[sandnsea]

11. I'll go along with that n/t

[sandnsea]

3. Who's more ignorant?

The religious who refuse to acknowledge the mental illness, or the one who theoretically knows it's mental illness and chooses to focus on the religion because it's trendy.

[rd_kent]

5. Interesting question

Either way, religion is involved and seems to be the cause.

[sandnsea]

6. Religion is the cause of mental illness??

I can't wait for this one.

:popcorn:

[rd_kent]

12. Allow me to clarify

I guess I should have said it better. I feel that religion IS a form of mental illness.

[sandnsea]

19. People who believe things that aren't true

are mentally ill, is that your position?

[rd_kent]

20. Ok, I will bite....

in reference to what I said about religion, yes. I'm sure I have walked into some kind of set-up here, but I am intrigued as to where your gonna go with this.

[sandnsea]

22. Do you have data to back up your belief?

You are operating on a belief system too. Are all belief systems evidence of mental illness, or just the ones you don't understand?

[rd_kent]

31. I have some

Have a read: http://www.smw.ch/docs/pdf200x/2004/25/smw-10322.PDF

This is NOT what I base my assumptions (not belief) on, but serves as an example that there IS a link between mental illness and religion. I also feel that serious research into this topic is "taboo" because of the push back when the topic is brought up. Religion is BIG BUSINESS, and just like any other big business, it will unleash it's vast resources to suppress and ridicule any external look into it, especially if that examination can change or close that business. There is serious money, power and control at stake by religion, and it will not go quietly into the night.
Personally, I see religion as a disease upon humanity. It is, IMO, the root cause of every major (and most minor) problems we face on the planet.

[frebrd]

8. Yup! Ain't "faith" wonderful? eom

[charlie]

9. She ate the baby

ATE the baby.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-woman-accused-killing-baby-072709,0,3935740.story

This one has a mental illness too far gone for any hope of a safe release, ever. *shiver*

[sandnsea]

10. A mental institution would be the humane thing

Unfortunately most somehow think this could never be them or their loved one, so she'll probably end up in some high security prison and be continue to be tortured by the other inmates and staff, as well as her own mental illness. I really don't know how we can call ourselves civilized when we can't look at our fellow man through the empathetic eyes instead of punitive eyes.

[charlie]

14. Andrea Yates is institutionalized

Same state, too, so this lady's defense has a recent case for reference. Kind of an anomaly for lock-em-up Texas, but it appears she has a chance.

[sandnsea]

18. No, she was sent to prison

The conviction was overturned on appeal because some of the testimony about the television program wasn't true. The jury also didn't know she could be sentenced to life in a mental institution. The second trial was more honest and that's when she was found not guilty by reason of insanity and sent to the institution. Wouldn't justice have been served if the prosecutor had just let her plead guilty and sent her there in the first place? I'm fairly sure she offered to.

[charlie]

21. I know that

The second trial didn't turn out to be some pro forma repeat of the first, though, which was something few would expect down here. If the prosecutor has any sense, yes, offering the defense a deal would be humane and best. If not, a jury just might do it for him anyway. Might.

[Meshuga]

13. Ironically you seem to believe in the devil yourself

Except that your devil is religion.

Instead of saying that the "devil" did it you say it was "religion." Instead of taking the approach of using logic that one would expect from a non-believer you prefer to take the emotional approach where the thing that you dislike can do nothing right therefore it is the cause of all evil and it cannot produce any good.

Sorry if I am judging you wrong but that is the perception I get from your posts in this thread.

[rd_kent]

16. Emotional? No, not at all

The "devil" is a product of religion, as is god. I guess my point was that if one is a believer, then it should be no less plausible that the devil told her to do it, or if god had told her to do it. I feel that religion is a form of mental illness, so yes, my devil is religion, but I don't believe it, I know it, I can provide examples of religion being very, very evil. Sure, there are some good charitable actions that come from religion, I'm not knocking that, but as a whole, the world would be a much better place without religion.

[Meshuga]

30. There are more obvious (easier) ways to pick on religion

This one is a stretch. I mean, if the woman didn't have any knowledge of a mythological Devil she would probably use something else since she was mentally ill.

And I would love to see a good argument for the "religion = mental illness" thesis you claim to know to be a fact. Not that I am doubting you, but do you have an argument from a medical or psychiatric perspective that you can provide us since you have knowledge of this?

[rd_kent]

32. Here ya go

http://www.smw.ch/docs/pdf200x/2004/25/smw-10322.PDF

Just one example of many.
Also, please see my earlier post #31 to sandandsea.

[Meshuga]

35. No one is debating the impact that religion might have on the mentally ill

The paper does not seem to address your claim "that religion is a form of mental illness". If the article addresses it (and I am missing it), then can you please explain what makes you come to the conclusion that it supports you claim that religion is a form of mental illness?

[rd_kent]

36. Sure it does

It states that there is a prominence of those with mental illness to be religious in nature. I know its not the perfect example, but its what I came up with on short notice.

If someone absolutely believes in Santa Clause (no, Im not trying to start a fight, just make a point) would you call them crazy? Why is that any more crazy than believing in a god? Just because more people believe in a god than in Santa, doesn't mean its true, its delusional, and that is mental illness.

[Meshuga]

37. I don't think it does

Even if the article states that there is a prominence of those with mental illness to be religious in nature (and it is not surprising given the dominance of many religious myths in our culture) it does not say that religion is a form of mental illness as you claim.

In other words, your conclusion that religion is a form of mental illness seems to be based on personal opinion.

As far as the Santa Claus example, one could easily reach the conclusion you came up with when approaching it so superficially. Santa Claus is a commonly known as a children's myth. Obviously, any adult belief in Santa Claus would be considered abnormal because of a common knowledge in our society that Santa Claus is a mythical figure.

In contrast, the majority of people in our society are taught that God is a reality. So I can see the argument stating that the belief in God is a deception being very valid. But an argument attributing mental illness to belief is stratching it.

[rd_kent]

38. Deception, for sure

But when the deception becomes a persons reality, is that not insane?

[Meshuga]

40. It depends on the case

The person could believe in a status quo religion as it was taught to him/her or the person could hear God talking to him/her (and/or see apparitions). I just think the former is much different from the latter.

Someone having abnormal mental or behavioral patterns is one thing and that falls in the realm of psychiatry. But someone having beliefs influenced by the local culture and/or personal background is another.

One would treat a mental illness with its proper medical treatment, as the article in psychiatrics you posted earlier provided suggestions for treatment. Beliefs can change and they are dependent on family setting, education, lack of education, influence, life experiences, etc.

[rd_kent]

41. So, by your account

"The person could believe in a status quo religion as it was taught to him/her or the person could hear God talking to him/her (and/or see apparitions). I just think the former is much different from the latter." If the latter is most definitively mental, then aren't all of the holy books written by people that are mentally ill? If that is true, why would people believe the rantings of the mentally ill? I see that as a mental illness.

I do see your point, and I hope you see mine. I do approach this with a bit (ok, a lot more than a bit) of disdain for religion.

[Meshuga]

42. Biblical authors didn't witness biblical events

They probably believed these things happened (like some people believe today) or, in some cases, created and merged tales together to keep their ancient community in line.

I think the people who believe in the inerrancy of the bible rarely read it. A fundamentalist co-worker of mine was complaining about his son being rebellious so I told him (kidding around, of course) to warn his son to be careful as the parents have the power (according to the biblical law) to have their rebellious son stoned to death. My fundy co-worker didn't believe that there was such a thing in the bible so I had to send him a link to the Deuteronomy 21:18-21 passage.

Perhaps a bad move on my part given that the guy is a biblical literalist. But his son survived.

[struggle4progress]

15. Update: Relative says mom who killed baby had mental problems

By PAUL J. WEBER, Associated Press Writer


... Gloria Sanchez said Monday that her niece had been "in and out of a psychiatric ward" and that a hospital called several months ago looking to check up on her. She said Otty was "not in her right mind" and that the family is devastated ...

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/Update-Relative-says-mom-who-killed-baby-had/DGV3wVgKpECp0JVIJMjZJA.cspx

[rd_kent]

17. We already knew that

Would it be safe to say that someone who does this "because the devil told me so" has mental issues?

[Dorian Gray]

28. This whole story just makes me so sad

my heart goes out to the dead baby, the family, and even the mother. Dealing with mental illness is horrible, and I hope she gets the mental health treatment that she needs. If she is able to get better, then the extreme pain she will suffer as a result of her actions while mentally ill will be a shock to her system.

The poor, poor baby.

[EvilAL]

23. Finally, Satan gets some credit.

It's always God this, God that.. Kill for Satan, makes more sense.. no?

[bsd13]

24. If one is a Christian

They had better believe in the devil otherwise they're ignoring a fundamental reason for needing redemption by the blood of the living God. But if one is a Christian the last person they should be blaming for their own wickedness is the devil because a Christian is not controlled or influenced by the devil, we are untouchable. We are responsible for our own actions and will give an account before God for what we have done, said, and even thought. Just like everyone else. We don't get a free pass in that regard.

[rd_kent]

34. Not like everyone else, sorry

Please do not include me in your delusion, unless you can provide proof of what you are saying.

[bsd13]

43. It's just a matter of waiting

and you'll get your proof. Until then eat, drink, and be merry.

And let's leave the personal attacks out, ok? "your delusion" is a personal affront.

[rd_kent]

44. Pffft. Yeah, right.

Keep on, keeping on, bro. Good luck with all that delusion, ok? You really should seek professional help.

[Meshuga]

45. Wow, even your thoughts may get you in trouble!

So are you saying that your "bad" thoughts may send you to hell for eternal suffering? That's nice. Well, I should actually say "that's not very nice." And for this reason alone this idea of a judge does not deserve anybody's worship.

However, I am curious of what is your opinion of a gay person who "sins" according to the bible as far as sexual acts and/or "impure" thoughts? Is he hellbound according to your understanding of Christianity?

[Silent3]

25. I'd say this sounds mostly like mental illness...

...with the effect of religion likely being little more than something that lends shape to delusions that would have been there anyway.

I do however see religion (queue "helpful" contributions from those who want to fuzzy-up the range of possible definitions for religion in a way that somehow means only good things or nothing at all should be said about whatever it is that religion is) as a bit delusional in most of its manifestations. On an individual basis, it's a pretty harmless delusion for most people most of the time, however.

For normal people to do appalling things in the name of religion, which obviously happens from time to time, you need a certain amount of social mass hysteria, the same kind which politics and cults of personality can stir up too, and which doesn't account for a lone woman of and by herself killing her child, screaming about the devil.

Perhaps when a person is very close to going over the edge the kind of mind that rejects the magical thinking of religion might have a little more discipline, a little more ability to see the objective insanity of a terrible act, but that's just speculation until more study is done, and it would never be a guarantee.

[PassingFair]

26. Withholding my slam on religion on this one....

until we know more.

In the case of Andrea Yates, religion played
a HUGE role, both in worsening her condition,
AND in playing into her psychosis.

Her "pastor" should have been sent to jail
with her.

Don't ask me how I fell about "Rusty" either.

[ZombieHorde]

27. Don't Christians believe that the Devil does not have their best interest in mind?

Why would they do what he says?

[Dorian Gray]

29. Because they are mentally ill.......

I have a friend who suffers from psychotic breakdowns, and she's seen devils speaking to her at night in bed. For all we know, her baby could have been the devil speaking to her, and she felt she had to destroy it. But, that's all speculation. She was on a break from reality, so whether it was the devil or God speaking to her doesn't matter.

[sakabatou]

33. She does sound mentally ill

But there are the fundy-types who believe this crap.

[Odin2005]

39. Oh geez. I'm an Atheist, but I also hate people who bash the mentally ill.

Non-religious people can become psychotic too, you know. :eyes: