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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 08:40 AM
Original message
"Medvedev Backs More Religion in Class, Army"
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 08:54 AM
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1. The opening line is hilarious:
President Dmitry Medvedev pledged Tuesday to support the study of religion in schools and hiring chaplains from major Russian religions, in what could pose a major challenge to the constitutional separation of religion and state.

Studying religion violates the separation of church and state? Providing the opportunity to access a chaplain in the military violates the separation of church and state?

I guess it depends on one's perspective.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. For all our claims of separation of church and state, most other countries
see them hopelessly enmeshed in our system.

Just as I do.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Under the Soviet System the only official state Religion was Atheism
And the un-official state religion was Stalinism (Called Leninism and some time called Leninism-Stalinism). Thus this is an improvement if you view the Government is NOT to favor or disfavor one religion over another.

The big fear is this is an attempt to restore "Russian Orthodoxy" as the state religion. People tend to forget but ALL Societies not only organize themselves in the form of secular governments but also core beliefs. In Western Society that has included the concept of Separation of Church and State, but without a real separation of the core beliefs of both State and Church (Thus you had both church and state condemn Communism in the US in the period of the 1870 through the 1970s, and in some ways even today, for Communism attacked the core belief that Capitalism is the "Best Economic System"). In many ways Islam is being attacked today, not because of any dispute as to any belief in the afterlife, but on radical Islam's attack on what we call "Friendly Governments" of the Mid-East (Bin Laden's demand that Oil go to $250 a barrel or about $10 a Gallon).

Sometime in the 1950s or 1960s someone in the UN made a list of Countries and their Religion. For the USA for Religion he wrote "Capitalism". Most people took it as a joke, but a joke with a good bit of truth in it. Any attack on Capitalism in the US is quickly opposed by the powers that be with some sort of response, including those of Violence as shown in the sometime brutal crack down on Labor before the 1930s, the massive discrimination against Communists before the 1980s (and both set of attacks ended only as US Unions embraced protecting the Capitalist system and the Communists became irrelevant given the declining situation in Russia starting in the 1960s). In the US you still hear attacks on Government run businesses, especially if run more efficiently then private companies (The TVA for example, in my home area you still run across articles attacking the State Government for Building the PA Canal in 1830, even through it helped the state and lead to the subsequent building of the Main Line of the Old Pennsylvania Railroad, now the Main Line of Norfolk and Southern).

My point is the State Religion of the US has never been any one Christian sect, but the Capitalist system itself and its start in the raise of the Upper Middle Class during the Late Middle ages. The Reformation itself was more switch from Noble control of Society to one of a Society controlled by the Upper Middle Class. Any Religion that supported that switch was tolerated, any religion that said something different was outlawed or worse (Thus the various Anti-Catholic laws AND pressure groups in the US before the 1900s, more do to the fact the Catholic Church tended to represent the poorer elements of the immigrants of the 1800s and thus their concerns, then any religious reason). Once the Catholics were NO longer viewed as a Threat to the Upper Middle Class Control of the US, Catholics were not only tolerated but accepted into society (as had Catholics who were from the Upper Middle Class even in Colonial America).

My point here is Religion is NEVER the issue in any society, what is at issue is who controls that society and one of the mechanism of control is the religions of that society. As long as the religions either support the ruling class or do NOT oppose the ruling class, they are tolerated even in state that have one and only one state religion (Britain is an Example of this, technically the Church of England is the State Church, but like the US the real state religion is Capitalism as is the state Religion of the US). When a religion opposes those who are in control, or represents those people who oppose those in control, then it is suppressed (and this can happen in States where the State Church is the source of the Opposition, thus the various State-Church fights during the Middle Ages before the raise of the Upper Middle Class, and after the Raise of the Upper Middle Class before, during and after the Reformation).

Now back to Russia of today. Lets remember what "Russian Orthodoxy" is. "Russian Orthodoxy" is the Concept that the Orthodox Church should be nothing more then a branch of the Government and support the Government in all matters of State.

One of the old jokes about Religion in the world goes this way,
In the West, God and Caesar are independent of each other,
In the European East (Russian, Greece etc) God is the underling of Caesar,
In the Islamic World, God and Caesar are one and the same,
In the East, Caesar is God.

Under Stalin, Russian underwent a period when Communism was the State Religion in all but name, thus moving Russian to a society like the Orient when the leader is viewed as THE GOD. Since the fall of Communism Russia has been returning to its more traditional view, God is the Right hand man of Caesar. This seems to be a continuance of that process, not only make Russia more Orthodox, but also Orthodoxy more Russian and pro who ever is in power in Russia. It has less to do with any concept of Religion then an effort to strengthen the hold of Putin and his allies on Russia. Putin and his allies all accept that Stalin's effort to make Caesar God has failed, so they are reverting to the traditional Russian view of making God Caesar's lieutenant. This does NOT mean Orthodoxy will be the only religion permitted for the same policy can be used on Moslems, Jews, Protestants and to a limited extend Catholics (The Catholics are the big exception only do to the fact the Pope is NOT under the power of Putin and this Independent of him, this Independence from the state is why Catholic Priest do NOT marry, No marriage the number of Children are kept to a minimum, No Children the Priest can oppose the state without fear that their children will be harmed or other-wised discriminated against, thus the reason Poland and its Catholic Hierarchy could oppose Stalinism while Lutheranism, Orthodoxy, Judaism, Islam and even Non-Stalinist Communism were NOT capable of doing so).

Just a statement as to the what Putin and his Allies want to do with this action and that Separation of Church and State is often more an illusion then reality in most Societies since it became dogma during the age of Reason in the 1700s.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-28-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. +1
One of the old jokes about Religion in the world goes this way,
In the West, God and Caesar are independent of each other,
In the European East (Russian, Greece etc) God is the underling of Caesar,
In the Islamic World, God and Caesar are one and the same,
In the East, Caesar is God.


I think that's a quote by Samuel Huntington. :hi:
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