Pope Promotes Abstinence to Fight AIDS

[emad]

By Associated Press

June 10, 2005, 8:02 AM EDT


VATICAN CITY -- Pope Benedict XVI urged African bishops Friday to keep up their fight against AIDS, reiterating church teaching that abstinence is the only "fail-safe" way to prevent the spread of the virus.

Benedict met with the bishops from South Africa, Botswana, Swaziland, Namibia and Lesotho, all of whom were making a periodic visit to the Vatican.

"It is of great concern that the fabric of African life, its very source of hope and stability, is threatened by divorce, abortion, prostitution, human trafficking and a contraceptive mentality, all of which contribute to a breakdown in sexual morality," Benedict said.

The pope said he shared the bishops' concern about the devastation caused by AIDS and that he prayed for "all those whose lives have been shattered by this cruel epidemic."

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-pope-aids,0,7379570.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines

[cdb]

1. Dark ages mind comes up with

dark ages solution- very simple

no sex= no aids.

duh

[Another Bill C.]

2. Well, it's working for me.

Dammit! Dammit! Dammit!

[beam me up scottie]

3. Instead of "preying"

for "all those whose lives have been shattered by this cruel epidemic."
why doesn't he just stop helping to kill them?

[James T. Kirk]

4. Um, he's not killing anyone.

Could you be more clear? How is the pope killing people by giving advice that will reduce the rate of infections?

[beam me up scottie]

5. Yes. He is killing people

by not changing the policies on condom use and by lying to people in third world countries.

He just stated that the church will not change its policy on the use of condoms to stop the spread of aids.

His "advice" to the millions of people in third world countries to abstain from having sex.

When you are able to save lives and do not, it is the same as killing them.

Lying to them about the ability of condoms to prevent the spread of aids is the same as killing them.

Telling them that condoms transmit the aids virus is the same as killing them.

These people believe in the church and it is LYING to them.
I cannot think of a worse betrayal.

It is beyond morally bankrupt, it is EVIL to allow people to die when you can save them.

*****
Vatican: condoms don't stop Aids

Steve Bradshaw
Thursday October 9, 2003
The Guardian

"The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.
The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV.
A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue."

"The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom."

"The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

"In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids.
Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America."

source:http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00....

*****
The Lesser Evil
The Catholic Church and the AIDS Epidemic

This article originally appeared in the Autumn 2001 issue of Conscience.

By Patricia Miller, former editor of Conscience and director of writing and research at Catholics for a Free Choice.

In 1997, a doctor who is a member of the Vatican Council for the Family said that using condoms will not prevent HIV infection. Father Jacques Suaudeau wrote in the journal Medicina e Morale,”Using a condom to protect yourself against HIV amounts to playing Russian roulette.”41 A report from the National Institutes of Health in the United States recently confirmed the predominant medical opinion that “consistent and correct condom use prevents...HIV infection.”42 Despite medical opinion confirming the use of condoms to prevent HIV, it seems as if the church’s anti-condom propaganda may be winning converts. A recent survey conducted by the Kenyan Media Institute found that 54% of Kenyans do not believe that condoms are effective in preventing HIV and that “condoms encourage immorality, which exposes people to the risk of contracting the virus.”43

In Africa and around the world the hierarchy of the Catholic church has worked actively to suppress condom use, education and distribution. In 1996, the local Roman Catholic church in Tegucigalpa, Honduras, prevented the distribution of one million condoms by health and election officials at polling stations during a primary election. Honduras has the highest incidence of AIDS in Central America.44 That same year, in Nairobi, Kenya, Cardinal Maurice Otunga, Kenya’s leading Roman Catholic church official, burned boxes of condoms and safe sex literature.45 After Brazil launched an innovative AIDS prevention program that stressed the need for the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS, Brazilian Roman Catholic officials criticized the program for not stressing abstinence. Cardinal Eugenio Sales of Rio de Janeiro said the campaign would stimulate sexual activity, thereby spreading AIDS.46 Just this year in Zambia, health officials withdrew a hard-hitting anti-AIDS campaign that urged safe sex and condom use after the church complained that it promoted promiscuity.47

On the issue of safe sex education, particularly for teenagers and young adults, the church has been even more aggressive, only recognizing the need for sexuality education within the limits of monogamous, heterosexual marriage, impeding the development of much-needed programs that address contraception in any context, including condoms to prevent AIDS. In 1996, the Vatican issued new sexual education guidelines,”The Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality: Guidelines for Education within the Family,” which attacks school-based sexual education and says parents should have the primary role in teaching their children about sexuality. It calls on parents to refute teachings about “safe sex” and condemns contraception.48

The Catholic church has persistently opposed efforts to develop a comprehensive sexual education curriculum for schools in Kenya, despite the declarations of international bodies like the UN AIDS conference that sexual education is key to fighting AIDS. When Kenya did develop a comprehensive sexual education curriculum, it was shelved because of vocal opposition from the Catholic church.49 The New York Catholic Conference fought to block a condom-distribution and education program for New York City public school students because it did not give primacy to their message that abstinence is the only way for young adults to protect themselves from AIDS, even as AIDS rates for youth increased dramatically.50 The Peruvian Bishops’ Conference condemned a sexual education program developed for that country’s schools, saying that the “program is centered only in providing biological information and is disconnected from any moral value or sense of responsibility.”51

http://www.condoms4life.org/facts/lesserEvil.htm
*****

Global Campaign to End Catholic Bishops' Ban on Condoms Launched in Africa
Billboard and Newspaper ads in South Africa, Zimbabwe and Kenya stating "Banning Condoms Kills" are part of global mobilizing effort to change Vatican's condom policy.

The first global campaign to end the Catholic bishops' ban on condoms was launched in Africa today with billboards in Johannesburg, Cape Town, Harare and Nairobi and major newspaper ads carrying the message "Banning Condoms Kills" and "Catholic People Care-Do Our Bishops?" The prominently placed advertisements are part of an unprecedented worldwide public education effort aimed at Catholics and non-Catholics alike to raise public awareness about the devastating effect of the Catholic bishops' ban on condoms in preventing new HIV/AIDS infections. Catholics for a Free Choice (CFFC) is sponsoring the ad campaign.

CFFC, which launched the campaign in Washington, DC, on World AIDS Day 2001, stated that there is nothing controversial about saving lives by encouraging people who are sexually active to use condoms. However, the ads caused an immediate stir and stimulated public debate about the Catholic hierarchy's position on condoms. The Archdiocese of Washington, DC, tried to get the campaign ads banned from subway stations and bus stops. That attempt failed. In fact, the campaign proved so successful that CFFC extended it for another month on DC bus shelters.

The ads, which will appear in a dozen countries over the next year, invite the public to join a global campaign to end the bishops' ban on condoms - Condoms4Life at www.condoms4life.org. People who join the campaign are asked to contact local policymakers and express support for the availability of condoms and concern that Catholic bishops not undermine responsible public health policy on HIV/AIDS.

"Using condoms and being open about their importance are an essential part of preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS," stated Nathan Geffen of Treatment Action Campaign in South Africa, one of the worldwide partners in the campaign. "It is crucial that the Catholic church revisit its stance on condoms, which is inconsistent with the rest of its approach to fighting the epidemic."

http://www.condoms4life.org/campaign/archive/release4.htm
*****

[James T. Kirk]

6. I'm not using condoms and guess what! I'm still alive!

Holy cow! I didn't know I was in danger of dying from lack of condoms!

Seriuously, I don't use condoms. I know what causes AIDS and all my life I have not been in danger of getting an HIV infection.

Condoms break. Condoms expire. Condoms run out. Abstinence costs no money and it works every time.

Please get off your high horse. His back is getting tired.

[beam me up scottie]

7. As soon as you get off your cross.

Instead of being an apologist for the church, try reading the articles in the links I've provided.

Or are you completely incapable of understanding the difference between an educated person living in an industrialized nation and someone who is living in an aids ravaged third world country and who is completely reliant on the church?

I thought the appalling ignorance on the sight that shall not be named was astounding but since I still hear the same arguments whenever this subject is discussed in this forum, I really can't even get on a high horse, let alone get down from it.

"Abstinence works every time"?

Tell that to the women who are raped.
Tell that to the children who are born with the disease.
Tell it to the wives whose husbands infect them.
Or do you REALLY think that they have a choice?

[James T. Kirk]

23. So you expect RAPISTS to use condoms effectively?!?

1. Rape victims don't really have a choice in the matter, do they? They are victims of a crime of violence and for you to expect them to keep a supply of fresh condoms around just in case they are raped is cold hearted.
2. Children born HIV-infected - Giving them condoms does not really cure them does it?
3. Husbands who infect wives - The husbands should remain faithful to their families.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[James T. Kirk]

55. You are so caught up in your little world.

The pope recommemnds a teaching. You can disagree with that and that's fine. Millions will ignore his advice on all sorts of topics. But you calim he is actually killing people and that is is vile slander.

[beam me up scottie]

62. He LIES. He tells people condoms spread aids.

People DIE from aids.

Condoms save lives.

He knows he can prevent their deaths.

He chooses not to.

He is a murderer.

And I suggest you read the articles and the links that I've provided.

You will see that I am not alone in blaming him.

Far from it.

My world is big enough to read, learn and know the truth about this disease and the people who are dying from it.

You worship a little man and believe without question everything he says.

Who's world is little ?

[trotsky]

8. "Abstinence works every time"

Sure, and if you never eat, you'll never get food poisoning either.

Sex is as much a part of life as eating, sleeping, and breathing. In the strictest churches and schools, where "abstinence only" is thrown at every kid, there are STILL girls who get pregnant and STDs that go around. Why do you suppose that is?

[gordontron]

9. civility would be nice

agreed trotsky, thank god I live in a state that is liberal enough to have a realistic sex education program.

at kirk: you have to realize that not everyone will have the lifestyle you want them to, so you may was well help people educate and protect themselves.

[beam me up scottie]

10. Welcome to DU gordontron.

I hope you don't think I wasn't being civil in my response.

These facts have been discussed hundreds of times on this board in the past two months.

The majority of links I provided were from Catholic sources.

Considering that some still prefer not to educate themselves and then dismiss what will become one of the worst, if not the worst, preventable tragedies in history, I was using as much civility as I can possibly muster.

[James T. Kirk]

15. Obviuosly becuase they didn't abstain and decided to risk it.

[trotsky]

18. Right, so tell me how "abstinence only" was effective.

Go ahead. I'm waiting.

[James T. Kirk]

24. It wasn't effective because they didn't use abstinence. Duh.

By your logic, if I use a condom today and don't use one tomorrow ang got infected that would mean condoms are not effective.

You have to abstain every time to be safe.

[beam me up scottie]

28. So...

never having sex is your solution.
Well, after all of the humans die, I guess aids would stop infecting people.
It is effective after all!
You're a genius!

[James T. Kirk]

66. The straw man has been defeated!

You are just so freaking clever. Sex is great and necessary. I highly recommend that it take place inside the safe institution of marriage. It's great for the spouses and it also makes new kids. As a side effect, if chastity is used, it also protects the family from HIV.

It's that simple.

[beam me up scottie]

67. Sorry to be so "freaking clever",

but if you were able to successfully make your case, you wouldn't feel it necessary to say snarky things like that, now would you?


psst!...since the pope won't tell you this, I'll let you in on a little secret - sex is much better when it's not necessary!
One could say it's more appealing.

"But Virginia they didn't give you
Quite enough information
You didn't count on me
When you were counting on your rosary
And they say there's a heaven for those who will wait
Some say it's better but I say it ain't

I'd rather laugh with the sinners
Than cry with the saints
The sinners are much more fun"

Billy Joel
Only The Good Die Young
:P
I'm so freaking clever!

[YankeyMCC]

44. Wrong...

The logic is that when you teach people about sex and give them REAL choices including using condom you save a lot more lives.

Teaching abstinence only leads to ill-informed people with unrealistic expectations set upon them.

A person educated about condoms is less likely to Not use a condom in subsequent encounters (as in your example) than a person educated in abstinence only is to have sex.

To believe abstinence only education will effectively reduce STD rates you must be disconnected from reality. Not to mention the studies that have shown it is bunk and the fact that teen pregnancy and STD transmission has gone down under sex education policies that include teaching about condom use.

It's about helping people, at least giving people as much chance of helping themselves as any other person.

Abstinence only programs are about judging people.

"You have AIDS? Well I guess you had sex then. See what happens when you don't follow the rules? AIDS is your punishment."

Giving people options is a way of showing respect and acting on the idea that all people deserve equal treatment and equal opportunity and that they are the ones responsible for their lives not us or some mythical figure.

[trotsky]

47. Hello?

You've just admitted that simply telling people to "Just say no" when it comes to sex won't work. You've defeated your own argument. Man, that was easy.

[James T. Kirk]

65. You are not paying attention.

Teaching abstinence won't always work jsut as teaching condom use won't always work. It's up to the individual to make choices. No government or church teaching, preaching or public service announcements can stop them if they don't want to listen.

[trotsky]

70. And you are not confronting the pope's LYING.

Condoms DO prevent AIDS and STDs. No, they aren't 100% effective. But guess what: abstinence isn't 100% effective at preventing AIDS either, even if you DO practice it. You could get accidentally stuck by a needle, receive a contaminated blood transfusion, etc.

At least by sanctioning the use of condoms, the church could help bring the HIV infection rate down. The message should be "Please abstain from sex first, but if you feel you must, use a condom."

[Book Lover]

16. The problem is that the statement is unrealistic

We humans, in all cultures, do not negotiate between ourselves toward intercourse in the manner the Church theorizes we do. This advice doesn't work between committed Catholics (Willis, Papal Sin, pp. 89-93); how can it therefore be exported wholesale sans any adjustment into the many foreign-to-the-Church cultures of Africa with any reasonable expectation of acceptance or success? If those who try can't convince African men to do this one thing, have sex but use condoms, how it is that the pope expects them to do this other thing, not have sex at all? You tell me why not having sex is so appealing.

[James T. Kirk]

25. No having sex is not appealling. You have it backwards.

Sex is necessary for the survival of the human race and it's a lot of fun, too. But it is also serious, as it involves human emotions, procreation and social relations. It should be strengthened by a unique, secure relationship, namely marriage.

And no culture is "foreign" to our church. The teachings of Christ are open to ALL people, regardless of race. The Church has been in Africa for almost two thousand years now.

[beam me up scottie]

29. "having sex is not apealling(sic)" ?

You must be doing it wrong.

[trotsky]

57. LMFAO

No kidding!

[Book Lover]

34. I would replace "is" with "can be"

Sex can be serious, but demonstrably is not in every instance, even between married Catholics. When the demand for complete adherence to Church-approved sexual behavior is also coupled with an expectation that complete obedience will follow, the Vatican is recognizably disconnected from reality.

Holding fast to the demand that every sexual act be performed within the bounds of marriage and open to the possibility of procreation is actually not the issue I have here. The Vatican is free to issue any statement discussing sex appropriate to direct the behavior of those who belong to the Church, and who would I be, a former Catholic, to say what the Vatican must and must not do? But to avoid any discussion of what might be a better practice to avoid disease if and when a Catholic fails to confine themselves to the permitted expression of sexual feeling is irresponsible. And I know that in practice, some religious do just that in their ministries. Would it not be more honest if something other than "Just don't" came from up top?

As for the "foreign" issue: you know as well as I that Europeans effectively run the Vatican. However, your assertion made me rethink what I said: I would say now that humans are do not differ across the globe, and it is only customs that vary. But I stand behind what I meant when I said that the people in charge in the Church and the Vatican are European for the most part.

[beam me up scottie]

38. "The Church has been in Africa for almost two thousand years now"

And how long have Africa's diverse cultures existed?

EVERY culture that is not based on Catholicism is foreign to the church.

Why else have they been determined to "save" native populations all over the world?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. The problem in Africa

isn't that unmarried people are engaging in sex. A major problem is that many African men have unprotected sex with prostitutes and then go home, have sex with their wives, and infect them.

My husband doesn't use condoms, either-but I also know I am his only sexual partner. I know that neither of us abuse drugs, or engage in any other high risk behavior. Many African women don't have this assurance, and since culture insists they submit to their husbands, they are at great risk.

I wish the Pope had been more specific about abstinance. If African men would stop engaging in sexually dangerous behavior, and this was stressed as important by the church, I would say that the Pope's message is appropriate-as far as it goes. But what should a good Catholic married couple do if one of them is infected? Abstain? You can see why I'm confused--and concerned.

[noamnety]

19. One might as well argue

that vaccines don't save lives.

"Holy cow! I didn't know I was in danger of dying from lack of a measles vaccine! Seriously, I don't have the immunization. I know what causes measles, and all my life I have not been in danger of getting the disease. Vaccines fail. Vaccines cause side effects. Homesteading, homeschooling, and remaining free of all human contact costs no money and it works every time."

Same for seatbelts. "Seatbelts shouldn't be installed in cars. I've never worn one, and I am not in danger of dying from a car accident. Not riding in cars is free and works every time."

But most people don't live risk-free lives, and I'll wager you don't either. Most people don't live in total isolation, limit themselves to Amish forms of transportation, or remain celibate all their lives. For those people, vaccines, seatbelts, and condoms save lives. If the Amish had as much influence in the world as the pope, and tried to argue that cars shouldn't be equipped with seatbelts or airbags, even if a consumer requested them, you'd see how ridiculous the logic is.

[James T. Kirk]

26. You're right. Except abstinence is the most effective safety belt.

[noamnety]

48. yep, that's my point.

Not getting in a car is the most effective safety belt. But we still provide seatbelts for those who opt to use automobiles, because if they choose to drive, we want them to be safe. It saves lives. So it sounds like we agree on that.

Just make sure if you are being celibate, that you are at least masturbating - otherwise you are at an increased risk of getting prostate cancer. Some of those abstinence programs neglect to tell you that. It's a shame they value religious doctrine above people's health.

[James T. Kirk]

64. Just for your info, I'm happily married.

Faithful marriage is the best safety belt.

[noamnety]

68. No, ABSTINENCE is the best safety belt

(unless the rules have changed since your previous post right above this one)

As others have pointed out on this board before, marriage - even faithful marriage - doesn't give you a risk free sex life, because you have to have faith that your partner is as faithful as you believe them to be, and that they've been honest about being a virgin before marriage as well. The statistics are of course hard to nail down, but surveys run about 1/4 to 1/3 of all marriages experiencing one or the other spouse committing adultery at least once. And that doesn't even include the couples who are faithful but had previous partners before marriage.

And the definition of faithful is always open to interpretation. Did you know the New Hampshire Supreme Court has ruled that oral sex is not adultery?

So, the bottom line is that condoms are MORE effective than a (perceived) faithful marriage. The Pope should publicize that, don't you think?

[Stuckinthebush]

30. Yep...abstinence works

but it means that you aren't having sex.

Humans are sexual beings and it is rather healthy to have a healthy sexual life.

So, use condoms, make sure you talk to your partner about her/his past relationships, get tested regularly, and have a healthy sex life.

[beam me up scottie]

31. Not for those who find sex unappealing...

nt

[Stuckinthebush]

51. Indeed...

But we are sexual beings. An individual who desires sex and forces him/herself to not have sex is not very healthy.

A person who never wants sex, has no desire for sex, and couldn't care less about it is a different story.

I assume when we talk of abstinence we are talking about those that do desire sex and are forcing themselves to not engage in sex.

[beam me up scottie]

52. If you need to illustrate

the unhealthy results of what happens when people abstain by stifling their natural drive, look no further than the Vatican.

[Stuckinthebush]

56. Beautiful illustration, BMUS

:D

[Zhade]

11. Uh, he's giving advice that INCREASES infections.

If you think poor Africans will hesitate from sex (which is free and fun) because Ratzinger discourages condom use, you're insane.

By advocating against condoms while being cognizant of the high rate of sexual activity, Ratzinger is effectively saying, "you fuck, you die".

But more than that is the LYING about the HIV virus being able to penetrate condoms. That's a flat-out fabrication that goes against proven medical science. By allowing that lie to go unchecked, Ratzinger is adding to the AIDS death toll.

It's like an automobile manufacturer lying about seat belts, saying they snap in a crash and are of no use. People don't use seat belts, they die, and the deaths could have been prevented by simply being honest about it. We'd hold the CEO of the company responsible then, so why not hold Ratzinger accountable when he allows lies about condoms to be promoted in the name of the church he now runs?

[beam me up scottie]

12. Excellent analogy!

If you are in a position where your lies and propaganda effectively kill people, you are liable.
Religious figures are not exempt.
In fact, because of their influence on morality, they are responsible for many more deaths.

[Zhade]

13. Thanks, it seemed a good way to make the point.

Ratzinger is contributing to the death toll, and it infuriates me to see apologists ignore the RCC's blatant LIES about condoms.

[beam me up scottie]

14. Yep, he had his chance

to affect current Vatican policy and he dismissed it.
Instead he decided to hide behind the tired old meme of sin and punishment.
And he sure didn't spend much time worrying about the repercussions.
That makes him a murderer, IMO.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

21. Did you even read the articles? nt

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

37. Missing?

You tell me.

*****
The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.

The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV.

A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.

The church's claims are revealed in a BBC1 Panorama programme, Sex and the Holy City, to be broadcast on Sunday. The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom."
*****

Your post:

"That assumes that these guys are going to listen to him on condom usage... but not on "immoral" sex.

I understand that adult males in some areas will rape pre-teen girls (even relatives) because of the belief that having sex with a virgin cures AIDS.

Do we really think a man willing to go THAT far outside of church teaching is going to say "oh.... but I can 't morally wear a condom"?


Do you think that this only affects rapists?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

41. ? ? ?

Why should I quote the articles in my point?

I made my case and used articles as references for further research for those who wish to learn more.

I do not need to quote the articles to make a point.

I don't parrot information, I prefer to dissect it, do my own research and come to my own conclusions.

My point is that the church is lying about condoms and people are dying in "countries stricken by Aids".

I am not talking about educated citizens in industrialized nations who have a wealth of information sources.

Like it or not, the church does dictate morality to these people.

And the church knows that.

As a matter of fact, they count on it.

That is the whole idea.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

45. You may not be trying to pick a fight but

you are being deliberately obtuse.


"your answer came from somewhere else (before the current Pope was Pope)."

The pope = the church
This pope has validated the previous pope's policies

"that's the point of having a religion in the first place - to differentiate right from wrong. I don't have much of a problem with a pope dispensing Catholic doctrine... it's his job"

As far as the point of having a religion, I'll leave that discussion for another day, but when a pope "dispenses Catholic doctrine" that is responsible for the deaths of thousands, if not millions, I DO have a problem with it.

EVERYBODY should have a problem with it.

Or isn't it his job to save lives as well as souls?

"anyone who listens to everything he teaches is pretty unlikely to get AIDS... and anyone who doesn't care what the Pope says...um...doesn't care what the Pope says."

What do you mean by "anyone who listens to everything he teaches is pretty unlikely to get AIDS" ?

Millions of people are dying from aids in third world countries and people like you diminish their deaths by concluding that if they had followed the advice of the church, they'd all be fine right now?

In other words, those who sin deserve aids.

Got it.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

50. "nobody who has AIDS can blame it on the Pope"

Um, yes, they can.

A baby being born with aids today can blame the pope because his mother didn't insist that his father wear a condom because she was told by the church that they don't prevent the virus from spreading.

"Your "millions of people" statement is illogical. Not only does it not follow from what I'm saying... it doesn't even fit your argument. None of the millions who have AIDS are going to be saved by wearing a condom... because they already have AIDS"

Um, millions of people are dying and many millions more WILL DIE because of the doctrine and lies. Do you understand basic math?

"Let the Pope play in his own backyard"

The world is MY backyard too, not just his. He has no right to sentence people to death because of his beliefs. That is evil.

Just out of curiosity, were the victims of molestation by priests the result of the pope playing in "his backyard" as well ?

*****
New York Times, May 8, 2005
The Pope and AIDS
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

SÃO PAULO, Brazil

Let's hope that Pope Benedict XVI quickly realizes that the worst sex scandal in the Catholic Church doesn't involve predatory priests. Rather, it involves the Vatican's hostility to condoms, which is creating more AIDS orphans every day.
***
But at the same time, the Vatican's ban on condoms has cost many hundreds of thousands of lives from AIDS. So when historians look back at the Catholic Church in this era, they'll give it credit for having fought Communism and helped millions of the poor around the world. But they'll also count its anti-condom campaign as among its most tragic mistakes in the first two millennia of its history.

"The Catholic Church helps increase AIDS in the world," said Roseli Tardelli, a Catholic who is editor of the AIDS News Agency in Brazil. She added: "That's wrong. God doesn't like it.
***
The Vatican has horribly undercut the war against AIDS in two ways. First, it has tried to prevent Catholic clinics, charities and churches from giving out condoms or encouraging their use. Second, it argues loudly that condoms don't protect against H.I.V., thus discouraging their use.

In El Salvador, the church helped push through a law requiring condom packages to carry a warning label that they do not protect against AIDS. Since fewer than 4 percent of Salvadoran couples use condoms the first time they have sex, the result will be more funerals.

http://www.religiousconsultation.org/News_Tracker/Pope_and_AIDS.htm
*****


*****
This UN Secretary-General's interview was broadcast on World Service Radio and posted on BBC's website on 28 November. The full interview can be heard at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3244564.stm.

AIDS: a 'real weapon of mass destruction'
UN Secretary-General urges greater action

Annan: Some refuse to talk about this because of cultural reasons. We had a situation where one African leader was going to give a speech — I don't want to embarrass him by naming him — and the speech was prepared for him, where he was urged to encourage young people and the population to use condoms to protect themselves. He said, “I can't utter the word condoms, I'm the father of the nation. You can't ask me to encourage the youth to be promiscuous.” But this is saving lives.

BBC: And is that what you said to him?

Annan: Yes…. I spoke to another African leader who was also entirely against the use of condoms and said, “Mr. Secretary-General, we don't want to associate you with the word condoms. You shouldn't even be using that word or speaking about it.” I said, “Mr. President, I've even written to the Pope about it to see how we can work with the Catholic Church on prevention, on education, on treatment and care.” And he looked at me and said, “Mr. Secretary-General, when it comes to condoms, the Pope and I are one.” I said, “Mr. President, but your people are dying. We're talking about saving lives. This is a very serious business — and God will understand.”

BBC: Did you change his mind?

Annan: I didn't. And this is the frustration. These are the painful experiences you sometimes have to go through. And then if I walk away to see one of the dying patients and they were to look up and say, “Help me — get our president and the leaders to help us.” You can't tell them the attitude of their president.

http://www.un.org/ecosocdev/geninfo/afrec/vol17no4/174bbc.htm
*****

Sorry but your pope is a murderer.

There are laws against killing people.

Personally, I would like to see him stand trial in the Hague as well as king george and his cronies.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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[beam me up scottie]

58. The fact that using condoms saves lives is not a "belief" .

The delusion that abstinence works is.
And apparently, delusions are contagious.

Sounds to me like the baby can blame his daddy for having sex with someone other than mommy.

How do you know that the "daddy" in this case didn't get aids from a blood transfusion?
You immediately blame the man's lack of fidelity without knowing the facts and that is exactly the kind of mentality that is killing people.

Both of you are making judgments on how other people should live their lives (you've just told this couple they can't have any kids)... it's just that he claims that his comes from a "higher power".

I never told the couple anything. I believe that all people should be able to make an educated decision based on medical facts, not the delusions of some old man who thinks god talks to him.

A Pope can't say "people can't change" or "people can't help themselves, they're just going to sleep around". He can't.

He can sure as hell stop telling people that condoms spread aids.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

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[Donald Ian Rankin]

63. Point of information:

The difference between "Using condoms saves lives" and "abstinence works" is that one is a correct belief and the other is a false one, not that one is a "just" belief and the other isn't.

Other than that I agree with what you're saying, though.

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. There's the problem with Catholic doctrine

"better a baby with HIV than no baby at all" - and, implicit in that, a mother with HIV rather than a healthy one. That's what we disagree with. A wife may not have any realistic chance of refusing sex with her husband - who has caught HIV from a prostitute (and may not know it yet), perhaps before he was married. If he's been told by priests, or Catholic friends, that condoms are useless at preventing the spread of HIV (which is a lie, but African Catholic bishops are quite willing to lie in the service of their religion, it seems), and the unreliability of their contraceptive use has been exaggerated by the same people, then he's very likely to refuse to use one. If he knew the true facts, he might use one. This would save some lives - it wouldn't halt the spread of HIV, but it would slow it.

And the Catholic church is doing this because of their dogma about contraception. That dogma is bad enough on its own - risking women's lives through risky, unwanted pregnancies, and putting families into poverty with more children than they would like.

In the Pope's ideal world, everyone would only have sex with one person, and only when they wanted to have a child. But also in his ideal world, the rich would also give up their wealth for the benefit of all of mankind. Yet the Pope manages to tolerate rich people all over the world - he recognises that people aren't perfect when it comes to putting themselves before others. The idea of confession is meant to allow humans to get forgiveness for past sins. A man may regret his past sexual history. But how is he meant to start afresh if he can't protect his wife from an incurable infection? In sexual matters, the Pope refuses to accept human nature - that adults want to have sex.

The only reason I can see for this is that he wants more Catholics born, whatever their lives will be like. He wants more numbers for his church - even if they die quickly, in poverty. To him, life is a game with a count of souls keeping score between religions.

[Zhade]

22. If they're going to have sex against Vatican teachings...

...then the Vatican should have the simple human decency to NOT LIE ABOUT CONDOMS.

The RCC doesn't have to endorse condom use. However, if the church knows people will have sex anyway, it should at the very least refrain from repeating the lie that AIDS passes through condoms. Then those having sex against church doctrine will at least have honest information that could save their lives.

In their zeal to "save" souls, Ratzinger and his ilk are enabling in the death of millions. In fact, the willfulness of the lie, and the repeated failure of the Vatican to correct that lie, feels more like the RCC punishing people for having sex and less like attempting to keep their flock reigned in.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[beam me up scottie]

39. From the article:

*****
The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.

The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV.

A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.
*****

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html

[Zhade]

49. See BMUS' reply to your post.

She answered your question - using the posted article.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[Zhade]

32. Better headline: "Pope promotes AIDS to enforce abstinence"

NT!

[beam me up scottie]

33. "...it's the only way, say Vatican officials"

:rofl:

[Chauga]

42. I'm promoting sex to fight the Pope

[Misunderestimator]

59. Wonderful, now he attacks and insults "African life" ...

as a breakdown in sexual morality, and puts human trafficking and contraceptive use in the same category. Lovely.

[NMMNG]

69. In other news, pope promotes walking as only failsafe way to avoid

dying in a car accident.

Yes, never getting in a car again--or even walking near a street--is the only failsafe way of avoiding death by car accident. But what pragmatic 21st century human being is going to go to such lengths?


And of course, abstinence is the best way to avoid sexually transmitted HIV/AIDS , but to claim that condoms not only do nothing to prevent it, but actually spread it is irresponsible and downright shameful. Sex is a natural part of human adult life and attempting to impose extreme restrictions on sexual behavior, particularly through a campaign of falsehoods, will only result in failure.

[arwalden]

71. Not A Very Realistic Approach... But Considering How Socially Backward,

and scientifically backward he is, I'm not at all surprised.