Any Zen practitioners here? I'm reading Sekida's translation of and commentaries

[struggle4progress]

on Gateless Gate and Blue Cliff Records and would like to know what anybody who actually practices thinks of the translation and commentaries

[Why Syzygy]

1. I'm not.

But, I am very interested in the fact that you are reading those materials. I'm not a Buddhist, leaning much more toward Taoism. But the two are very close in some fundamental ways.
Here's one comparison:

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/102892

Taoism could be *partially* explained in the same way this describes Zen:

Zen is understanding your true self.

"What am I?" Everybody says, "I am." Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am."

We always say "I." But what is this "I"? Where does this "I" come from? When you die, where does it go? These are the most important questions you can ever ask. If you attain this "I", you attain everything. That is because this "I" is part of universal substance. Your substance, this desk's substance, this stick's substance, the sun, the moon, the stars-everything's substance is the same substance. So if you want to understand you true nature, first you must attain your original substance. This means attaining universal substance and the substance of everything.
http://www.gatelessgate.org/index.php

The methods are somewhat different. Taoism doesn't have the rule structure. Buddhism seems more intellectual and hierarchal to me.

I'm also curious whether you are reading paper copies or reading them online?

There is an Editor's Introduction written by one of Sekida's students here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=mjfg0i49hkQC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=Sekida's&source=bl&ots=eNPGIWq92N&sig=0_VpA6Jl5HSQJb42lgvZ715wpjI&hl=en&ei=U42dSoy4Fd-g8Qa2pri3Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=Sekida's&f=false

This site has alternate translations for SOME of the koans:
http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/ZenPages/Koans-PYL.html#01

These appear to be two different translations:
http://www.ibiblio.org/zen/cgi-bin/koan-index.pl
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/mumonkan.htm

[struggle4progress]

2. I bought paper. I usually enjoy looking at a real book better than a monitor.

Taoism may be a fairly indeterminate term. Lao in the right modern translation is worth the effort, and I think Chuang's playful metaphysics is a lot of fun. It's easy for me to believe that Zen resulted from Buddhism's encounter in China with some Taoist tradition like Chuang's. I have a Taoist commentary on the I-Ching that is somewhat interesting. The spiritual alchemy stuff is stranger: it seems to have elements reminiscent of (Tibetan?) yogic meditation, as it goes about telling one do-this-and-that to nourish some immortal spiritual embryo. The Taoist manuals related to Chinese sexual yoga are practical but maybe less attractive: some contain evidence of early feminist elements, but they're often just manuals "instructing" Chinese patriarchs how to use their multiple underage wives to improve their own health. Somewhere, I have a copy of Vegetable Root Talks, which is a nice collection of short sayings for every day Taoism. Currently, I think I like Taoist politics best: it's anti-authoritarian, though perhaps it's view of government is a bit too libertarian for my taste

One interesting thing about some of the Taoist texts is the way ordinary phenomena are treated as metaphors for psychological or metaphysical issues. And apparently, this is one way of understanding the Zen texts I'm looking at, according to the translator's commentaries. It's of course clear that some of the Koans are to be read in such fashion, but I stupidly never thought of approaching all the stories in that same manner. Of course, if a Zen master found me discussing these matters in this way, s/he would not doubt beat me over the head with a big stick, and if I were lucky I'd suddenly be enlightened and not make the mistake again ...

[Why Syzygy]

3. Do you have the name of

the Taoist commentary on the I-Ching volume?

[struggle4progress]

4. Lessee. Pretty sure it's published by Shambala. Wait a minute while I search.

[Why Syzygy]

5. I had no idea

you were into this branch. Due to your cosmologies?

[struggle4progress]

6. Never clean your house. I had it a month ago and put it somewhere more rational.

It was faster to find online: I'm pretty sure this is it:

http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/978-1-59030-260-6.cfm

It's OK, though I'm more interested in the patterns and commentary than in the divination (which I regard as superstitution, even though I think it can sometimes produce psychologically useful insights). I really much prefer Daoren's Vegetable Root Talks:

http://www.amazon.com/Back-Beginnings-Shambhala-Centaur-Editions/dp/1570623775

I don't know how to answer your question. I'm interested in how people think about themselves and the world, especially if I can learn something productive. I really like some of the Taoist writings: Chuang is charming

[Why Syzygy]

7. Thanks!

I'm going to check those out. You might get a little conversation on the topics in the Seekers group.
Although it's pretty slow in there.

[struggle4progress]

8. enjoy

:)

[Why Syzygy]

9. About the I Ching ..

I don't know a lot about it, but my interest has been piqued lately. I've become fascinated with the number 64; and that's the number of possible hexagrams. Sixty-four shows up in many contexts, including computer science and the tetrahedron. Is there a logical explanation for that?

[struggle4progress]

10. I'm a mathematician, not a numerologist

There are 64 hexagrams because a hexagram consists of 6 lines, each of which can be broken or unbroken, so there are 2*2*2*2*2*2 = 64 possibilities

Since most computers store bits (conventionally represented as 0 or 1), powers of 2 appear naturally in computer science, though I don't know the particular technical reasons behind the industry choice to move towards using 64-bit addresses

I have no idea what you're thinking about the tetrahedron: it has 4 vertices, 6 edges, and 4 faces; if it is regular, it has 12 proper symmetries (that is rotational symmetries, not involving reflection) and 24 symmetries in all (when mirror images are included) -- off the top of my head, I don't see a relation to the number 64

[Why Syzygy]

12. I didn't think you were a numerologist.

I know you are into math. That's why I asked if you knew a 'logical' explanation. In numerology, 64 would be represented as "1"; which symbolizes unity, beginning, singularity. I'm pretty sure I've read an explanation for the computer use, but don't recall right now.

I'm going to have to look for my source document regarding the tetrahedron. It's a tetrahedron 64 grid; and consists of more than one tetrahedron. My notes don't give me enough information to explain it. I did find a couple of mathematic sites that refer to the grid. But it would take a lot for me to ferret it from those.

I was told that the human zygote begins cell differentiation at cell count 64 (or the 64th division); but I've been unable to verify that. What we do know; 64 squares on a chess board, 64 codons of DNA, 64 positions in the Kama Sutra, 64 maximum strokes in any Chinese character, 64 is the fourth superperfect number, 64 number of classical arts listed in ancient Indian scriptures.

I'm just fascinated with numbers. I remember phone numbers and addresses with a 'code'. I especially like 4 and 8 (my 'lucky' numbers). So 8 being the square root of 64 just makes it that much more intense. It doesn't hurt that it represents "infinity". (When I play craps I always make the 'sucker' hard way bets on 4 and 8. And usually hit.)

A couple of things about 8: 100 lunar cycles = eight solar years; 8 notes in a full octave; the orbit of Venus crosses the Sun five times every 8 years and traces a five pointed star; an ancient symbol for Venus (and Ishtar) was a star with 8 rays.

See? Not quite obsessed, but close. It was our discussion of the I Ching that set me off.

I'll see if I can find my tetrahedron source document. And I HAVEN'T cleaned my house.

[struggle4progress]

11. Here is the first sentence of Vegetable Root Talks:

Those who live virtuously may be desolate for a time, but those who depend on flattering the powerful are destitute forever

[Why Syzygy]

13. I put it on my

amazon wish list, and it will probably be the next book I buy.
I can relate to subsisting with roots.

Oh and, I wanted to make sure you have this link:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm

[struggle4progress]

14. Thanks for all the links! I've bookmarked a few because I want to read them carefully!

[centristgrandpa]

16. as you listen to the wind, chant Obama 10,000 times aNd...

If the mind is clear
A dark room has its blue sky
If the mind is somber
Broad daylight gives birth to
Demons and evil spirits

The just man
Has no mind to seek happiness
Heaven therefore
Because of this mindlessness
Opens its inmost heart
The bad man busies himself
With avoiding misfortunes
Heaven therefore
Confounds him for this desire

How unsearchable are the ways of heaven
How useless the wisdom of men

The Tao is common property
It should be pointed out to all we meet
Learning is as ordinary as eating rice at home
According to the circumstances
It should be applied circumspectly

The Ancients left rice for mice
And did not light lamps
Out of pity for moths
These thoughts of theirs
Are the operation point of humanity
In life
Lacking this
A man is a mere earthman
A wooden body

The Zen sect says
When you are hungry — eat
When you are weary — sleep

Poetry aims at the description
In common language
Of beautiful scenery
The sublime is contained in the ordinary
The hardest in the easiest
What is self-conscious and ulterior
Is far from the truth
What is mindless
Is near

(source) Alan Watts: The Vegetable Root Discourses

[recycled]

15. I have read the Gateless Gate in "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones," which is a book

that I always found to be hilarious (and I do believe that was part of the intent).