Trying to understand Sin and Forgiveness

[cbdo2007]

Everyone "sins" in the Christian sense in their lives because we know nobody's perfect, but isn't sinning ok if the person just asks for forgiveness afterwards?

This seems to be the general idea of Christianity yet when I try to explain this to other people they always say something like, "that isn't how it works...".

I'm wondering why is this not truly how it works? Everyone knows right from wrong, so anyone that sins knows they are sinning while they are doing it. But all they need to do is seek forgiveness afterwards and they then believe all is forgiven.

Not sure what I'm missing here. Sanford knew he was sinning when he was cheating on his wife with the Argentianian (sp?) lady so how is his plea for forgiveness valid if he knew it was wrong when he was doing it? The only way forgiveness should truly be accepted is if the person doesnt know they are sinning, but I don't think this is possible. Everyone knows right from wrong.

Thanks

[wryter2000]

1. I'm not that familiar with how it works

I will say, though, that Mark Sanford's puny excuses have nothing to do with Christianity. So, don't look there for an explanation. :)

[cbdo2007]

3. I know. I want to say that I am NOT wanting to discuss Sanford specificallly here

cause he's obviously an extreme dumbass. It just happened to be a good example of someone blatantly sinning and now acting like they should get forgiveness some how, when if he's that worried about it he shouldn't have done it in the first place.

[Taverner]

2. Christian Salvation is highly tied in with the "Born Again" concept

The idea is when you become Born Again (whether its the Evangelical/Fundie method of praying to God to be the master and lord of your life or the more toned down method through baptism, or even the idea of this having happened to all men with the death of Jesus)

When you are Born Again, you are "washed" in the "blood of Christ." Communion ties back to this.

The idea is that through his sacrifice, our sins are washed from our soul.

Also, time is supposed to be a gift from God, but not something God follows. Its only something we follow.

Keep in mind I am an Atheist child of a family of Preachers - so I may have a little bias.

So naturally I think this doesn't make any real sense.

[wryter2000]

6. Not necessarily

Mainstream churches that have nothing to do with "born again" also subscribe to the concept of forgiveness. If you'd like to see a good explanation, look farther down in the thread.

[Taverner]

11. Even the mainline Protestant religions have an idea of salvation

As a kid I was a Methodist, and our explanation was that when Jesus died, all men, future and past, were born again.

[wryter2000]

16. So do the Episcopalians

But as many times as I've been in an Episcopial church, I've never heard the term "born again" used. I think the term has a meaning way beyond a strict reading of salvation. For example, Evangalicals say they've already been born again. I've never heard an Episcopalian say that.

[Taverner]

17. The meaning has changed since the anabaptists

They were the first ones to go around saying you need a "Born Again" Experience, whereas before all men were born again under God.

[JerseygirlCT]

19. Not at all a universally held belief though

very much a part of the Christian fundamentalist movement.

[blueworld]

4. All it takes is repetition?

No disrespect meant, but Jesus said to several people, "Go & sin no more". Yes we all sin, but is it enough to simply mouth the words "I'm sorry, I know I was wrong" and then endlessly compound the sin with lies etc?

I combine my Christianity with the 12 step program: I have to make amends, wherever possible.

And sometimes, those "amends" mean losing the privilege of having someone's love or companionship or having some material object...know what I mean? Some sins are a little worse than others. God forgives me always, but on earth, I may have to sacrifice a bit for my human errors. And re-earn the trust of my brothers & sisters.

I'm babbling, but you've asked a great question & this is my penny:)

[wryter2000]

7. You put it pretty well

:)

[cbdo2007]

9. Yeah, this is getting to it...sort of...

I get what you're saying, and understand that "forgiveness" is more than just saying your sorry and you won't do it again. You've really got to make that change and show that you're on the right track....

...but...that still DOES seem to give the green light to sinning because you can make amends for it later. Here's a basic hypothetical, I'm at a party and find $500 in the couch cushions. So I put it in my pocket and take it home because I rationalize that I really need it to pay my gas bill and that as soon as I get enough money again I'll pay this person back somehow.

It's stealing which is sinning and I know it's wrong but I know that later I can make amends and just ask for forgiveness, right?

[Duke Newcombe]

5. I think you're missing some things (from a Christian perspective)

Sinning isn't "if the person just asks for forgiveness afterwards". Many verses deal with forgiveness not being a "green light" to sin, but completely opposite--a reason to not abuse the grace of forgiveness.

Also, what's missed by a lot of non-Believers is that forgiveness isn't equivalent with "getting away with it". There are still natural consequences that will be dealt with, regardless of being forgiven. Our little friend Gov. Sanford is going to find that out, in spades, Real Soon Now. Anyone Christian who thinks forgiveness without behavior change means consequence-free actions is running into a buzzsaw.

As for how people shouldn't receive forgiveness if they knew what they were doing was wrong, take the case of a drug-addicted person. Perhaps they were raised in a home where drug abuse was frowned upon. They heard "Just Say No" over and over in school. But the drug make them feel powerful/good/happy--because they do--at least for a while. If they hurt their SO, blow off their boss and coworkers, steal from friends, they have created injuries. If that addict gets treatment and gains tools to resist the addiction, and is willing to make amends for their behaviors, forgiveness is an option available, if those who were injured are willing.

I don't pretend to understand it all--I just know that I'm glad there is forgiveness.

[Warpy]

8. The screwball beliefs of The Family would seem to have infected

many of our public officials. At the heart of those beliefs is the idea that all leaders are anointed by gawd and can do no wrong. They openly praise Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler as truly courageous leaders who were put there by gawd to do his work. They are nuts.

Along with this goes Dispensationalism, a loopy variety of Calvinism that says the rich are favored by gawd and the poor are despised by gawd and the only hope they have is to be born again, after which it doesn't matter how many sins they commit, they're going to get their reward in heaven.

Both these systems--and they're related--seem to think the Jesus teachings are just a bunch of sappy, sissy crapola that need to be discarded in favor of the punitive parts of Leviticus for sins they no longer have to worry about committing. Those punishments are for the rest of us.

That's why Sanford was so shocked people think there should be consequences for dipping his hands into the public till to get laid in Argentina.

The Dispensationalists have dispensed with the concept of sin for themselves, in other words, and made it into something that can only be committed by other people.

The "saved" can do no wrong. Ever.

[Betsy Ross]

10. A Jewish perspective

On Yom Kippur we ask G-d to forgive our sins. G-d will forgive our sins against G-d; we must repair our sins against man ourselves. But it is not so easy to repair some sins. You can ask forgiveness of the party sinned against. But how can you ask forgiveness for a sin against all peoples. You have a real problem there.

[TreasonousBastard]

12. Most Christian traditions, including the Catholic...

church and the non-Calvinist protestants, teach that we are by nature sinful, at least to some extent, and since this is our nature, it shouldn't doom us. There are means to absolve us of these sins we commit.

But, it's not as simple as running around doing whatever and then saying we're sorry and it's all OK.

The first thing is to actually try to lead a righteous life. The next thing is that when we do screw up, we have to genuinely repent-- no one but the sinner and God knows if the penitence is real, and the simple truth is that nobody else needs to know.

According to these traditions, Sanford, Madoff, Manson and Hitler all have the ability to repent and they will be forgiven by God, if not by most of us. Note-- I said the ability to repent, not that any of them actually have. And, God is presumably clever enough not to be bullshitted by smarmy apologies.

Human forgiveness may be more difficult to find, but it often works the same way, and it's not only religion that says it is often a large part of healing. Citing the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord's Prayer, and other words of Jesus, almost all Christian traditions teach that we should attempt forgiveness rather than vengeance-- vengeance is for God alone and we find our own peace and cement our relationship with God through forgiveness.

None of this means that we should just let anyone rob, rape, or kill without consequences. Justice and order here on earth is our business-- we just can't let it go too far and interfere with what is God's business. Once justice is served, the next step is to forgive.

[JerseygirlCT]

20. Thank you, that was well said. nt

[laconicsax]

13. It's about control.

Sin isn't about things that are right and wrong, it's about controlling the lives of the faithful.

Some Old Testament sins include wearing mixed fibers (i.e. wool and linen or polyblends), eating certain things, and working on the Sabbath.

There's nothing morally wrong with wearing mixed fibers, eating certain foods (ethical dilemmas notwithstanding), or working on the Sabbath yet doing so is a sin.

Some New Testament sins include having bad thoughts, blaspheming against the 'Holy Spirit,' or working on the Sabbath.

There's nothing morally wrong with having thoughts, calling the 'Holy Spirit' a fucker, or working on the Sabbath (which falls on a variety of days depending on the sect) yet all of them are serious sins.

If you follow the Old Testament laws, you aren't free to decide what you wear, what you eat, and when you work. If you follow the New Testament laws, you aren't allowed freedom of thought, freedom of speech, or freedom of when you work. None of it has to do with 'right or wrong,' only with controlling peoples lives in a way that is reminiscent of a totalitarian state.

If you break any of these laws, you're supposed to apologize to the supreme lawmaker and ask for forgiveness.

[davidwparker]

14. Sinning is not okay

Sinning isn't okay. It is just forgiven for those who are saved through the Messiah's sacrifice. Sanford knew he was sinning, sure. However, if he is in Messiah, it is forgiven -- since God gives more grace (a gift). Where Sanford may be forgiven, he is not escaping consequences of his sin by exposing the sin and his hypocrisy.

It is Messiah's sacrifice and the gift of God's grace that forgiveness is possible. God incarnated Himself as man (the Messiah) and paid for man's sin on the cross so that no man should perish. It is freely given by God to those who are in Him (accept his gift of atonement for sin).

End of Romans 5

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[damntexdem]

15. It depends on the Xian. E.g., Catholics need to go to a middleman, a priest.

Whereas, EW Republicans can sin with impunity, and never sincerely ask for forgiveness. ;-)

[JerseygirlCT]

18. Forgiveness requires

a sincere acknowledgment of the wrong you did and the intention not to repeat it.

Although, I grant you, there have been times in Christian history - including ours - where that idea has been twisted to something like what you've said. There's not much difference between buying an indulgence and the sort of pro forma "yeah, yeah, wipe that one clean, ok, and I'll get right back to it" stuff.

As you say, we all sin - which means, literally, missing the mark. But the effort not to do so is also supposed to be always with us, and the effort to sincerely acknowledge our failings and not repeat them.

[tama]

21. Hamartia

The Greek word for "sin" is hamartia, which means simply error.

We all make errors, if and when judged by this or that criteria. Also, if judged by the criteria of living in harmony with rest of Life and Being, we are born and brought up into huge error-sin called growth-manic Empire (or just Civilization).

The funny thing about sinning and making errors is that they are allways relative to this or that criterion of judgement, not absolute. So if judging - based on any and all criteria - ceases, so does sinning. Some call ceasing of judging "enlightment" etc...

[SidneyCarton]

22. Repentance implies sincere sorrow for what one has done.

Not merely because one has been caught in wrong doing and is understandably humiliated for being "caught in the act."

When I was a Missionary we taught repentance as follows.

1. Recognition of wrongdoing. One must realize that the actions being undertaken are wrong. Sin implies knowledge, and a willful act against the revealed law.

2. Sorrow for Sin. In Christianity, true recognition of wrongdoing means understanding that Sin brings a separation between us and God. That our acts have caused pain to others and that we are responsible for their suffering. When we realize this we are pained spiritually.

3. Confession of Sin. The process inherent here depends somewhat on sect. As I understand it you confess your wrongdoing to God, whose laws you have transgressed, and then to those who you have wronged personally (if applicable).

4. Restitution. True repentance involves the restitution of that which was wronged. If one has insulted, one must apologize. If one has caused damages, one must repair them, or pay for their repair. Hence the seriousness of acts such as rape or murder, for which the transgressor can give no meaningful restitution in this life.

5. Forsaking the Sin. True repentance means letting go of sinful behavior, and resolving not to repeat it. As we are mortal and imperfect, this is almost never a one-shot deal, often one is forced to go through this process repeatedly through one's life. One may be sincere, but one is often also weak, and hypocrisy often makes our efforts at repentance more difficult. Hence repentance is a life-long process, not a singular event.