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Mastering The Great Divide and the Shift Toward Wholeness.

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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-19-09 10:07 PM
Original message
Mastering The Great Divide and the Shift Toward Wholeness.
Edited on Sat Sep-19-09 10:09 PM by Dover

Stumbled on this weblog by Robert Paterson and was moved by his personal story. Not sure if copyright applies to a public blog. I've posted it here in its entirety (pts 1 and 2).

A Great Divide - Are we living in an evolutionary event for humans? Part 1

I have been wondering what is the difference between people who get the deep meaning of social media and those who don't. I am now wondering as I see the profound failure of all of us to fix our great underlying systemic problems whether, the failure for many to "get" social media is in fact a sign of a wider problem of "World View"?

I wonder also if there is an evolutionary shift underway? A shift between a "Kinetic" world view and an "Energetic" world view? Is the divide merely a cultural one or might there be a physiological difference?

Are there in reality, two species of humans now walking the Earth? Is there a Homo Noeticus?

There is at least no doubt that we are having problems solving massive problems right now. What makes the problems worse are that the very assumptions used in creating the problems are being offered without question as the solutions. At some point, we will all see that we are stuck.

Our world is controlled by the Kinetic POV. Over the last 50 years, a mass of evidence has been gathered to show the Energetic underpinnings of all these systems. But a Kinetic Person cannot "see" the alternative. It cannot exist for their reality. They cannot be argued. So we remain stuck - for now!

I say for now because I see hope in an ever larger pool of people who naturally "see" their world using a larger overlay of perspective that is Energetic and Social. They cross all racial and class barriers. They are often separated from their own family and even spouses as their connection to the wider perspective of energy expands. They know each other the moment they make contact - even online. They cling to each other for support and protection for they know that they are the "Other" that the Kinetics fear the most.

If the Kinetic world cannot fix our problems. Problems that extend into our impact upon the planet itself. Problems that carry our doom as a species with them - energy, food, global extinctions and climate change - then maybe our only chance for a descent versus a collapse will be that there enough people with an energetic world view to lend a hand.

So what makes a person more Energetic - able to see the connections and to feel and project energy? What is it that offers this gift?

I am starting to think that the answer is more than merely cultural - something that can be learned. I am beginning to think that the answer may be physiological and so may then be an evolutionary response.

Jill Bolte Taylor suffered a stroke and discovered a new reality when her "Kinetic" brain was lost to her and she could only access her "Energetic Brain".

With access only to her right brain- she found that she inhabited ONLY an energetic world - where she was dissolved into the universe.

When she recovered access to her Kinetic brain, she found that she could now move between one and the other.

I think the answer is that those who are more energetic have a wider pathway between the two hemispheres of the brain and can travel back and forth as Jill Bolte Taylor can now.

How does this pathway open up and why was it closed.

Julian Jaynes in his masterpiece, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, made the case that prior to "civilization" and very importantly, the common use of the written word, that humans had full access to both hemispheres of the brain. Hence we could hear the voice of the Gods - our connection to the larger group's and locale's energy. Writing and reading demand massive use of the left hemisphere. Over time, as literacy became the norm, we narrowed the pathway. In the 20th century, it must have all but have been closed off.

We know that many critical aspects of our neural development depend on Use it or Lose it. Any 2 year old can learn any language with no effort. But an 8 year old will really struggle to learn a second - there is a window. This window idea extends to the physical. For instance, if you blindfold a cat for the first year of life, it will never see. The brain connections for sight have to be used during a critical time or they can never be made.

These gains or losses do not have to be experienced directly by the child. For instance any 3 year old will draw using the vanishing point as a perspective. But a 14th century master artist had such a problem with "seeing" the world this way that he had to have a tool to help him. So, just as a border collie will have herding built in or a Labrador a fondness for water, we seem to be able to pass on some kinds of skills and behaviors.

Changes that affect a lot of people, can happen very quickly. In 1970, there were almost no fat people anywhere. Now there is an epidemic of obesity. How can this be? Obviously it has some thing to do with our life style and food but what happens to us as people? We cannot have a genetic shift in such a short time. The genes must be there. But why some fat and some not? Why do obese people have obese kids? What can happen is that the on/off switches that control which genes express or not can be inherited. So the parents that have the fat gene expressed can pass this on. We pass on the dashboard.

What I am saying is that events can change our wiring. When the wiring is changed, we can pas on the new wiring to our kids.

What I would like to do in my next post is to describe my own experience in "waking up. It was almost as traumatic as Jill Bolte Taylor's. Something happened to me.

I would also like to hear what happened to you too. Have you always been awake? Can you recall an event or a series of events, or maybe something about your early life that created the conditions by which you too woke up?


------


The Great Divide - Awakening? Part 2
How do we shift from Kinetic Man to "Energetic" or "Noetic" Man?


I suspect that there is a triggering event - a predisposition - and reinforcement that in the end locks in the shift.

I can only talk for sure about my own journey - so I will start there and then look to the general.

Here is my own Triggering Event.

I woke up in 1992. I was just 42. I was on vacation with the extended family by a lake. I had been in emotional turmoil for months. It was a kind of nameless turmoil. I could not label it but I could feel emotional tectonic plates moving inside me. I felt almost as if I was pregnant. Something was coming that was inside me. I was fighting against it with all my might.

For at least a year, I had been increasingly unhappy with work and with my whole life. I had been the most Kinetic of men. My public life was very successful. I was the youngest SVP in the Canadian banking system. The consummate insider. The perfect courtier.

At home, we were the "perfect couple". My family life looked great on the surface.

But I felt like a donkey in harness going round and round in pointless circles - a beast of burden - doing nothing worthwhile at work or at home. All my life was surface and it felt like dust. There was no animation. No juice. No life. but I had no idea that there could be another life. It was all ashes.

So I was lost. Condemned. Trapped.

I had hoped that getting away for 3 weeks would help. I had never before taken such a break. After all I was Kinetic Man who was a superman! I thought that maybe I was just tired and overwrought. Maybe a good holiday would get me out of this feeling. Little did I know!

I awoke in the very early morning, I felt that something was wrong. Specifically, I "knew" that Robin was in pain. But there she was, fast asleep beside me. But this knowledge that she was in pain was so vivid and so real, I could not dismiss it as a dream, and so I woke her. She groggily told me that she was just fine and rolled over to go back to sleep.

Just then, our bedroom door opened and Hope, our daughter, staggered in, doubled up with pain with terrible cramps.

I had got the person wrong but not the situation.

But this was not the end of it. It was if, I was now like a radio and I was tuned in to all who were around me. I could feel people's emotional state. I went to sleep with the radio off. I had felt the radio go on in my sleep and now it would not turn off. The volume was set at full and all the stations were playing at once.

My world was filled with emotional noise 24 hours a day. I could not switch it off.

I wondered if if was becoming schizophrenic. I was so scared that I called on the help of the company doctor who put me in touch with a psychiatrist.

It was not schizophrenia. I did need therapy and spent 8 years in some form or another. Another story -So what was it?

I think in retrospect, I had an event. A physiological event - just as Jill Bolte Taylor had when she had a stroke. For some reason, the pathway to my Right Brain opened up. Not as bad as with her - she was incapacitated by this - but enough to change me forever.

So in retrospect, the Triggering Event was caused by pressure. A sense aged 40 that my life was empty and meaningless but that I knew of no way out. These are not unusual feelings for men aged 40. Some choose to lock it all down and to go on. Others buy sports cars and go off with younger women and try and do the whole thing over again. Some take to drink and drugs and bad behaviour.

I did not choose my reaction. My brain chose for me and broke through the wall to the right hemisphere.

I think it did this because I was predisposed. The barrier to wholeness was more like a hymen than a brick wall. It was a slender barrier designed to be broken by a force of life. I think that it is meant to break with the "right" stimulus if it has been thinned out by a predisposition.

What could have prepared me for this? I think I know now.

I grew up a child of nature. I ran wild - literally. No TV for me until I was 7 and then only a few hours a week and then none for a decade. My sense is that TV is the great dis-connector!

The pivotal experiences for me were in Africa. From 8-12 we lived in Ghana. When I was not at school, my sister and I were all but alone to do what we wanted to. We were all but unsupervised. We would wander for miles. Kill snakes and rabid dogs. Make tree houses. Get adopted by the locals. Go fishing with the villagers. Spend days in the surf. The kind of thing you would never let your kids do.

Aged 18 I went back to Africa. I spent 9 months living under canvas in the Kalahari Desert - every night under big sky. Every day walking for 11 miles through the desert. I became connected to the immensity and to the immanence of nature.

Nature had marked me. She had shaped me. She then just bided her time.

Perversely, I was also connected in my early life to the world of imagination. I draw a veil over my family life only to say that it was emotionally brutal. I retreated into the world of my mind. Books and what was in them became my escape. By 8 I had read hundreds of books - even war and Peace and Moby Dick. I would read every free moment. In my teens I might read at least a book a day. My imaginary world was as full as my real world.

My hypothesis is that predisposition is surely affected by a connection to nature that is real and visceral and by an imagination that has been well exercised.

This is why I worry so much about so many kids today. Over organized, isolated from nature and from danger. And maybe worse, having their imagination fed rather than grown. Will they be ready or locked down?

Sorry, I get ahead of myself.

Did I go mad or get "better"? The quick answer is that I found a way of living with this.

After a few months, I began to learn how to at least alter the volume and to reduce the number of open channels.

But for a few years, I was very awkward. I was like a 16 year old boy who had put on a foot in height in six months. You know how they bang into things and are so awkward because they don't fit into their new space. Well this is how it felt. I had very limited control over this new way of being. I kept banging into people emotionally. Like shaking a hand too hard. It could hurt and I was very disruptive both at home and at work.

I was an adolescent all over again - not sure of anything - least of all who I was. Not a good person to be connected to!

While I learned to keep the radio volume down most of the time, work became increasingly hard for me. I started to ask myself the kind of questions that could not be answered satisfactorily. Why were we doing what we did and more importantly why did we run the place the way we did?

Was shareholder value important? What were we really doing for our clients? How did we serve them really? The answers kept coming back that this was all for us. We told everyone that it was for them. Customer "Service". Serving the customer. But we served only ourselves. And who was us? Us was me and the elite executive team.

We said that people were important. We said that no one was more important than our staff. But I could now see that this was simply not true. It was not even about the shareholders. It was about "us" - the elite at the top.

This was no vague feeling. I was in charge of compensation and performance for the bank. I was in the one place where I could see the reality of what and who we really stood for.

After a year or so all I could see was the disconnect. One day in a big meeting I said this. As the words left my mouth, I knew that I had just fired myself. Of course, the bank were very decent to me. After all I was an insider - one of the best connected courtiers. I was not out the door - but I was gone. Three months later I was indeed gone from the corporate world. The only world I knew.

One thing only I knew for certain. I could never return to the corporate world.

So I struck out on my own - for a while doing very much the same kind of work that I had been doing before.

But I found that this was not enough. Here I come to the reinforcement aspect. I suspect that many reach my point. But if their new life is not physically reinforced, they can slip back. Worse, for in doing this, they choose a life of dust.

I was still surrounded by the energy field of the world I had left. A big city like Toronto is bursting with Kinetic Energy. In this raw state, this can be a kind of torture.

I was still also in relationship with my family in the same old way. Leaving the bank had been huge but on its own was not enough. I did not have a real relationship with my wife or with my children. By that I mean that we had not put all our cards on the table. It was still too scary to do that.

One morning early, the phone rang in my home office and it was a person called Marie MacDonald. She was calling from PEI. She said that we had never met but that she had heard me give a talk. She wondered if I might consider coming to PEI and giving this talk to the deputy ministers.

By saying yes - I also put my marriage and my relationship with my kids to a full on test. I would not know for years what the outcome would be - but I suspected it would be an outcome based on what was true rather than what we all hoped for.

This physical change forced the light to shine on us as a family. What was at the core of our relationships. Could we be truthful about who we were? Would we still have each other when we found out?

It was the dislocation that forced this upon us.

Now it has been 15 years here on PEI. I think it has taken all of this time to heal from all that has taken place. There is no short cut I think. There is more to come - how do I let go of all things and all people - for that now aged 60 is what is to come? The biggest test of being connected surely?

So in closing, what is a Connected or Energetic person versus a Kinetic person?

I think I know the answer to that now.

A connected person is a person who fits with themselves and their place. They are their true selves. They are attuned. They have an internal energy that is connected to everything and to everyone. They care very little about stuff or status. They care very little about the Jones think but they care a lot about people and the planet.

They know that their death is inevitable and that is what makes life so precious. But they hold more lightly also to life as well.

The rainy and cold day is as precious as the sunny warm day - for one day there will be no days.

They love their children and fear for them for they see the future ahead of them. This is why they cannot retreat from the world and the struggles that lie ahead. But the irony is that they know that if they wish to affect people or the planet, it will be how they live or be rather than what they want to do with others that will have the best chance.

So they know that it is in their being that they have any chance of helping all children have a better future.

How we we predisposed to become more connected?

Our great teacher is nature herself. If we let her, she will reveal all we need to know.

Our best classroom - the outside and taking risk. Our best tool - our imagination.

What is the kind of event that triggers the breakthrough?

The way there is a broken heart.

There is no painless way to break through. I think that torment and pain and desperation are the crucible that throws Paul off his donkey on the road to Damascus. It is the scourge and the cross that precede any resurrection. For me the power of the Christian story is not its literalism but the message that all can transcend a literal and kinetic world, if we are prepared for the humiliation of the cross. Our kinetic self has to die.

The how do we return to participate in the world again, if this process of death and resurrection is so painful?

The hero's journey is clear on this. Prior to the Return is a time in the desert - removed from the world that we know.

It helps to separate from the world for a while. So reinforcement is I think that process where we change our surrounding environment to fit our new self. It is the time and the place where we are re-shaped literally.

In my own case, PEI brought me back to how life is lived in a place that has a human scale - warts and all. It also brings me back to the rhythms of nature. Where the seasons play an immense role - where the weather is more than a conversational gambit. Where there is work to be done outside all the time.

Coming to PEI, forced me to separate from my family - to test it to its core. We came back together as a new family with a new foundation and with new promises and new commitments based on sharing a crucible.

Why am I sharing this with you? Because I think that we as a species stand on a cross road.

The choice will be I think, Collapse or Descent.

The difference will be I think evolutionary.

In the lead up to the end of the Ice Age and the breakout of Homo Sapiens was an evolutionary event. About 60,000 years ago a subset of Homo Sapiens, acquired complex language. As evidence of this evolutionary breakthrough, we see a take off in innovation in tool making and in cultural development.

We see the beginnings of spirituality and we see the amazing beginning of art.

This group only survived the transition.

It seems that the acquisition of language rewired the brain. It took man from the moment into eternity.

It seems that the acquisition of text also rewired the brain, losing us the connection to the connection. This severing was not all bad. It Enabled us to create an immensely powerful intellect.

But our intellect is not up to solving the problems that affect us today.

I fear that we have become less than human. Our disconnect from our true selves is at the heart of our disconnect from nature.

It all starts with each one of us. Here is how Joseph Campbell sums it up:

....... we have not even to risk the adventure alone; for the heroes of all time have gone before us; the labyrinth is thoroughly known; we have only to follow the thread of the heropath. And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the centre of our existence; where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world."

**********************************

".....The modern hero, the modern individual who dares to heed the call and seek the mansion of that presence with whom it is our whole destiny to be atoned, cannot, indeed must not, wait for his community to cast off its slough of pride, fear, rationalized avarice, and sanctified misunderstanding. "Live," Nietzsche says, "as though the day were here." It is not society that is to guide and save the creative hero, but precisely the reverse.

And so every one of us shares the supreme ordeal - carries the cross of the redeemer - not in the bright moments of his tribes's great victories, but in the silence of his personal despair."

The Hero of a Thousand Faces - Joseph Campbell, 1949

http://smartpei.typepad.com/robert_patersons_weblog/

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-19-09 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good read
I think he's right, too--there is a great shift. There are folks who understand that there is only one race-humanity--only one country--Earth. They celebrate in the differences between them, because they realize it is surface only-the core feelings are the same. As the poet Rumi said, "Oh for a friend who knows the sign, who'll mingle all their soul with mine."

You know each other when you meet. You speak as if you've been best friends for a thousand years, and feel comfortable in each other's presence, more comfortable than with your own birth family, even if you don't share a common language or culture. It is a heady experience to be amongst brothers and sisters and feel the joy and energy you share.

We are gathering, in groups, in different areas, often drawn together for a purpose as yet to be fully clear. Yet we will be patient, for the Way of things is to take Its own time.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-19-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. So happy to 'see' you Ayesha! And so beautifully said...((hug))...n/t
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Good to see you
not here much right now--busy elsewhere--but I do drop in.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. You seem to contradict yourself
You say "There are folks who understand that there is only one race-humanity". But then you talk about "You know each other when you meet". Well, yes, since there's only one race - humanity - then you know you've met a fellow human every time you meet anyone. And that includes all of your birth family. I don't understand what the 'groups' that are gathering are, if you think humanity is one anyway (I presume you don't mean 'villages', 'towns' or 'cities').
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. You are correct
It is a very problematic thing to say and can all too easily cause feelings of being left out from some "group". There is no such thing, no us-against-them type of in-grouping with group-identity or -identities.

What the OP talks about, sharing one experience, is this process of "waking up", of some kind of transformation that is shared and collective in many aspects, with great diversity of individual experiences. It's not either-or situation, though language can easily lead to such thoughts ("kinetic people" vs. "energetic people") that are not necessarily helpfull.

The reason that these transformation processes seem to be getting more and more common is the fact that this civilization is facing challenge of "do-or-die" transformation, meaning adaptation to living inside limits and organic part of Mother Earth and biosphere instead of keepin on growing like a cancer tumour. Transformation doesn't mean anything mystical as such - but can also mean very mystical - depending what is considered mystical inside various interpretative frames (languages, cultures, belief systems etc.). It can and does simply mean breaking up/through some shackles of cultural conditioning that have ceased to be adaptive to natural environment. Good example of such cultural conditioning is the great divide between culture and nature.

Now, individuals who are going through various stages of transformations (which can be as diverse as anything) often "recognize" each other in various ways, often "subconsciously" through attention guiding, as they are sensitive to each other, sharing similar experiences and problems that the normative society can seldom help with.

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. Yes, you have explained it well
Part of this transformation, I feel, is going from language to pure experience that cannot be put into words. When one has had enough of these experiences, it can be difficult to go back to using words.

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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #29
42. Yes
Language can be a constant struggle and especially so these languages of the Empire. What often helps is realizing and accepting that more than we using language languages (we are conditioned into) use us.

But then again, language is just as natural as experiencing being as such. The swet seremony I participated was interesting also from linguistic point of view. The languages spoken and sang during the seremony included English, Spanish, Nahuatl, Lakota, Sanskrit and Finnish, but yet all these languages were same language, language of and in body, language of Earth.

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. That's exactly the problem with this nonsense.
Being it the "Indigo Children" nonsense or this rubbish. it's egoistic Master Race elitism disguised as something good.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #26
43. Not quite so
But even though you exaggerate, you pose a serious question that haunts many. How to relate these kinds of experience and share them so that "Master Race elitism" in all forms can be avoided. History shows that what is spoken about all too easily mutates into hierarchies, organized religions and all that jazz. And we want to learn from history, not keep on repeating same mistakes.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
3. Half-asleep :)
"I would also like to hear what happened to you too. Have you always been awake? Can you recall an event or a series of events, or maybe something about your early life that created the conditions by which you too woke up?"

OK, since you ask so nicely: I've been blessed good teachers - not the teachers at school, but friends and relatives. E.g. I was exposed to the theory of quantum mind (by a relative working with David Bohm) very early in this life, together with teachings of Jiddu Krishnamurti. Carlos Castaneda was also among early influences, as well as reggae, punk, shrooms and pot :). And getting in touch with a good friend, a soul-mate.

In later life the fusion of science and magic/spirituality has continued. One turning point was at the beginning of this decade when I out of some whim went to woods some night and started singing ancestral shamanistic incantations or runes - it's been a ride since that, now the worst haste is thankfully over. Too much to tell, nothing really important to say.

As for the bicamerality, a scientist friend has talked about that too. His ToE, BTW, predicts that the physical human body is just small part of a magnetic body (which perhaps could be called the "mind-body") the size of Earth. Also, at one time when my friend was lucid dreaming he used to see a "gate" that said "TWANG" when he touched it... :D. It took few weeks to realize that the "gate" was corpus callosum.

There is one story more I'd like to share, told by another good friend. Her friend (sounds like an urban story, doesn't it ;)) had a cancer and doctors gave only few weeks to live. Insted of hating and fighting against her cancer the woman wanted to live her last days as well as she could, she accepted the cancer as part of her, loved it just like her other organs, talked to it in loving, gentle way.

Thanks for the OP.




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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. "twang"....lol! So that's how one knows they've passed through the gate.
They hear a 'twang'...

Great story.
Thanks.

One of my theories is that high speed barrage of information coming at us from every
direction and through mulitple technologies is one reason we have so many cases of attention deficit
disorder. Dis - order.
Our poor left-sided rational, linear, logic-oriented brain cannot
process the profusion of information and we must rely on our right brains that comprehend
whole systems and non-linear processes. Much more organic...an 'open-source' system.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Don't know
if "passing" is the appropriate word. More like he was seeing corpus callosum ("inside-outside"?) and poking it with his finger, like guitar-string. :)

Here some corporate clown coined some years ago the word "attention-economy" - of course, such can only be based on attention deficit.

The talk about left-brain and right-brain with clear division of labour is of course huge simplification and as such also misleading. But to add insult to injury (more misleading oversimplifications), my science friend developed the bicameral theory bit further suggesting that semitrance occurs when other brain is in trance and in tune with some larger inclusive intellect (collective tribal intellect, Gaia, etc.). This would suggest that semitrance is "milder" and "easier" experience than full trance, perhaps and likely allmost everyday-experience - including dreaming?

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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
28. Thanks for your comments
I appreciated being able to read them.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. Dover dear
Thanks so-o-o much for posting this.

I really needed to read it and have all these things affirmed, especially now.

Hope you are well and happy.

Great to see you posting as ever.

:hug: :loveya:

K&R
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Hi Stella. So-o-o good to hear from you as well. This fellow's story reminds me of a post
in ASAH some time ago which I'll send you in a PM, relative to the shift and
its physiological changes.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. Hi Stella!
Been sort of hibernating as the waves of new energy sweep over us and sometimes appear to engulf us. But it is nice to return to old haunts and see friendly posters.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you so much for posting this! nt
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EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
12. Is there any scientific basis for this?
Especially the nonsense regarding "kinetic man" vs. "energetic man"? Those seem to be made-up terms.

Those were a lot of words sprinkled delicately with some scientific words (mostly used incorrectly) and tied in an emotional element common to superstitions. What's this guy selling?

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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. That attitude of yours just shows that you aren't "awake" enough yet.
;)

Don't you know the rules of the game? If this dreck strikes you as smarmy woo, that's your problem, not the problem of the Deeper Souls who promote it.

The author has a few scattered good points about appreciation of life and what's important in life, but none of it's earth-shattering news, none if it's an amazing revelation, nothing at all here that warrants overblown talk about any "next step in human evolution" or other such bogus crap.
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EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Maybe I should start smoking meth
I heard that can keep you awake for days. Maybe after 7 or 10 days of no sleep I'd be able to understand some of this stuff.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I seriously want to know what he's selling.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I think a lot of this kind of stuff comes from people...
...who are way, way too impressed with their own mundane, commonplace realizations about life. It's this huge eye-opening thing for him that he suddenly discovers there's more to life than the rat race and material possessions, and he somehow can't digest such a shift in perspective without portraying it as part of a monumental evolutionary shift in all of mankind.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Especially so
in Western culture where overcoming cultural conditioning to standard scientific beliefs is socially very difficult.

In most other cultures (Eastern, primitive animistic etc.) experiences of "kundalini", "chi" etc. etc. are just as or more commonplace, but not met with such strong cultural prejudices as in Western culture.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. The whole idea of disparaging "Western" culture...
...and playing up the supposed wisdom of everyone else's way of life/approach to life is itself just another affectation of Western culture.

There's no way our culture is all that conditioned to "standard scientific beliefs", or 95% of the population wouldn't be so miserably scientifically ignorant when it comes to both the methods of science and the current body of knowledge gained by it.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Maybe so
but as far as Western hierarchic cultural institutions go, Science and Christian church have a pot-and-kettle relationship between them. Neither has been overtly bening to e.g. native peoples with animistic world views - or rather, anything outside their hierarchy.

Eurocentric culture, I've found, has a great talent for radical self criticism that goes deep in the roots of the "great divide", e.g. Nietzsche, Heidegger and co.
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EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. While you're getting way over my head philosophically (I know my limitations)
I'd like to point out that in the modern world, science does far more good for the world's population than religion does. (Although as an atheist, I definitely see some benefit in religion for a lot of people). It's been quite a few centuries since any church organization really pushed scientific advances.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. One of my heros
is quantum physicist David Bohm, who dedicated his life to furthrering dialogue and creativity in science and also between science and spiritualism. Bohm had deeply meaningfull dialogues with Jiddu Krishnamurti, which I have enjoyed reading.

For science (especially theoretical physics) to advance from current dead ends a paradigm shift is required in regards to subject-object divide, standard notions of causality and purely reductionistic approaches. IMHO dogmatic beliefs in premisses of the prevailing paradigm is not respectfull to science and scientific ideals - not even respectfull to empirical method.

For example in the OP there is mentioned experienses of feeling and sensing that cannot be limited to brain and thus cannot be explained inside the standard frame. This does not mean that these kinds of experiences - which are in fact quite common everyday phenomena - could not be approached also scientifically, they can be and have been.

For example, quantum theory and its "paradoxes" radically challenges the dearly held belief in objectified nature not dependent from the subjective inquiries - the divide between subject and object, between culture and nature, the very complicated mental gymnastics of not including one's self in the nature that is being studied and theorized.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. If more people were "conditioned" to respect science this world would be a better place.
These woo-woos preach enlightenment and in reality it is the kind of nonsense that threatens to cause a new dark age of superstition.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. Do you really
expect to get respect by showing none? Or are you just trying to beat some respect into those whose world views don't share the same limitations as yours?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. I have respect for facts...
...and refuse to accept nice-sounding fantasies as "truth" because they use nice-sounding mumbo-jumbo "truthiness".
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. "Refuse to accept"
And what if nature as happens and is experienced don't care about your personal refusal to accept and your opinions about "facts" but keep on going, happening, experiencing, changing?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. You are not making any sense.
Translation please? People with Asperger's Syndrome have trouble understanding fancy-sounding word salad.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Translation:
please pretty please. I don't know if you really have Asperger'Syndrome or not, and I don't really care. Such definitions are just fancy-sounding word salad. These kinds of definitions don't define what we are, what and how each of us really is, just how some peculiar social super-ego (speaking in voice of shrink and what not) wants to define and restrictc each of us.

Learn self-confidence.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #38
45. dupe
Edited on Mon Sep-21-09 08:10 AM by Odin2005
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EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. I think we're all susceptible to that sort of self-centered egotism
I'm not immune, and I doubt any human in history has not had some sort of moment like this. As humans, our own perception is what we know, and we are literally the center of our own universe. I completely agree with you, and want to add that there are some who see these "mundane, commonplace realizations about life" experienced by others and can't understand that it is a common thing, and instead imbue it with a "specialness" that it doesn't deserve.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Why do you atheists here feel
Edited on Sun Sep-20-09 10:47 PM by Why Syzygy
so threatened by someone's meaningful inner experience? Who are you to judge whether it was "special"? If it wasn't your experience, you have no basis and no right to make that call. How does this threaten YOU? I think that reaction is pathetic.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. Please
I don't see why EvolveorConvolve's post would need such harsh response. Maybe (probably) you've also treated badly on many occations and something now here brought those experience back to mind.

We all have our egos and egotistic projections to struggle with, they don't go away with snap of a finger or "meaningful inner experience" and EvolveorConvolve is quite correct to point that out.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #36
46. Wow, so you accuse us Atheists of having no "meaningful inner experiences"?
Not only is that insulting, that is bigoted. Having "meaningful inner experiences" is no barrier to differentiating between facts and wishful thinking.

I often see woo-woos bring up "intuition" as if it was a source of truth, it isn't, it is only a source of ideas, even "intuation" has to be tested with logic and empirical evidence.
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EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
52. I don't feel threatened at all
I've had plenty of meaningful experiences that have defined my life. I don't attribute them to anything supernatural, and don't mind if someone else has similar experiences that they attribute to God, a deity, universality, etc.

I've just seen way too many of these "special" experiences that are pretty mundane and common turn into a plea for money, usually through the purchase of something. Like I mentioned above, I'm pretty cynical about things.

I'm an analytical person, and I question things. Do you feel threatened by that?
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. No. I like it.
For the record. It's his blog. AFAIK he isn't selling anything. Just someone who likes to express themselves, as are most who keep blogs.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #33
48. I apologize
for calling the reaction "pathetic". That was too harsh.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. What he's selling?
Change you can believe in! ;)
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Your words :)
"Next step in human evolution" is not overblown bogus crap by any means, if it's accepted that this Western civilization cannot continue much more business as usual (growing forever) but must adapt to evolution or perish - meaning basically overcoming the big divide between nature and Western culture and reinventing organic way of life.

Evolution is all about adaptation.

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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. If you're very lose and poetic about the use of the word "evolution"...
...and use it to apply to cultural shifts, maybe his usage is a little less overblown, but it's also way too early to judge such a thing. To the extent evolution comes in "steps", rather than by gradual change (see "punctuated equilibrium") you probably don't want to be around for a "step" -- a messy stage where there's a lot of die-off and collateral damage until adaptation to new conditions takes place. Can a step in cultural evolution involve only ideas and ways of thinking "dying off" without the people who hold those ideas going with them? One can hope.

...must adapt to evolution or perish...

Evolution is the adaptation itself, not the thing to which life adapts.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I'm very loose and poetic
besides cultural evolution I can even about spiritual evolution. :)

As things are going and continue going, gradual change (soft landing over many generations) seems a faint hope and a "messy step" due in not so distant future.

What we can do is to live our lives according to our conscience to the best of our abilities consciouss that conditions make living according to conscience very hard and nearly impossible to many sisters and brothers. Maybe also little faith will do no harm, in the the spreading tideway of "awakenings" in various forms and that this change from the bottom can and will help to avoid much unnecessary suffering.

We are not alone. Even amidst worst moments, yelling "I hurt like hell and nobody understands me!" we can be assured that there are each moment millions of kindred sould feeling exactly the same... :)
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Seek and you shall find
My thought also that "kinetic man" and "energetic" man are "made-up" terms, used by this fellow to describe himself before and after his transforming experienses. These experiences he talks about (and asks others to share) are each unique but share many common charasteristics. They are perfectly natural and can be discussed also on scientific basis if there is such honest and open minded interest: seek and you shal find. :)

AFAIK this guy is not selling anything, according to what he tells about his life-changing experiences they forced him to give up career in the corporate elite, world of selling and buying.

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EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. I don't think his experiences are truly unique
There are many others out there with similar stories about life-changing events. Usually when I see something like this, there's a product for sale in there some where. I guess I'm getting cynical in my old age (I'm actually only 36, imagine the grumpiness when I'm in my 70's and still playing at the internet war of words :)).

If there's a scientific basis for any of this, I would love to see it. Unfortunately, I think much of this feel good stuff is eventually used to sell a product or idea (again, my cynicism comes out), and actually studying the ideas scientifically is a barrier to profit. But, I'm not sure how the scientific method could be applied to most of these ideas.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. They certainly
are not unique (except in the sense that each experience as such is unique) but quite common. Life changing (world-view changing, conditioning breaking) experiences are of course felt more intensely and can take a lot of time to process and get used to.

Critical approach does not have to mean cynicism and there is nothing wrong with uncynical critical approach, on the contrary. I share the your critical attitude to those who use certain experiences (genuine or not) to sell something and quickly loose interest to peddlers.

As for the scientific approaches, Rupert Sheldrake has done the so far most extensive empirical studies, and as for the explanatory basis, the quantum-mind hypothesis in its many varieties is currently the most promising avenue.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
13. I'm also thinking about certain animals & pets, perhaps limited to mammals, that
may be noetic. Or a different consciousness.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
25. Wow, not only is this New Age crap, it's ELITIST New Age crap.
And manipulating and misinterpreting the ideas of several people (like Jill Bolte Taylor, whose book, Stroke of Insight, I have read).
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #25
41. Yes
It can be certainly interpreted as elitist and become a trap, not just in one way but in many ways.

On the other hand it seems nearly impossible to share some experiences and especially life-changing experiences in a way that could not be interpreted as elitist - by at least some. The fear of being left out from something meaningfull (rightly or wrongly) is a mighty force and nearly universal mechanism for social beings like us.

But let's just calmly look at what's being shared here. Our friend was part of a real elite, the corporate elite, had life changing experiences that took years to get accustomed to through hardships (that also I, for example, can relate to and sympathize) and has been since doing work that is in tune with his conscience, working to make this planet a better place for our children. That doesn't mean that also our friend couldn't feel lonely, maybe he shared these experiences not in order to be interpreted as an elitist but just to hear similar experiences from others.

Most of us face great difficulties living up to our ideals and what our conscience tells us - I certainly do. In my experience these difficulties and contradictions between idealistic and realistic self-images lead easily to feelings of frustration and anger. But if we understand where our feelings of frustration and anger are coming from we can learn to give these feelings less power.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
31. Carl Jung
went through something like this. His red leather bound journal of the journey is being published.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/20/magazine/20jung-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&emc=eta1
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-20-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. From CG Jung: Modern man in search of a soul.
"The living spirit grows and even outgrows its earlier forms of expression, it freely chooses men in whom it lives and who proclaim it. This living spirit is eternally renewed and pursues its goal in manifold and inconceivable ways throughout the history of mankind. Measured against it, the names and forms men have given it mean little enough; as they are only the changing leaves and blossoms on the stem of the eternal tree." 1933
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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-21-09 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
49. What a load...
:eyes:

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