Just a really stupid question,but it is raining and I am bored

[lefthandedlefty]

They say god is the creater,but who or what created god.

[malaise]

1. Man n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

8. +1

:thumbsup:

[Subdivisions]

12. Yep. n/t

[AllentownJake]

2. God exist outside creation

According to Christian theology

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Alpha and Omega, I'm the beginning and the end.


In Judaism God said his name was "I am." The theology is God just exists, there was no beginning there is no end to God.

If you are a Christian or a Jew you believe that God is outside our rules of beginning and end and it is impossible for us to understand because we are temporary beings with a beginning and an end.

Christianity believes that through Christ people can become like God and not have a spiritual end. Depending on the Rabbi, Judaism doesn't believe that Human Beings spiritually live forever.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

57. So what was around before this "beginning"?

Was there nothingness? And if so, there had to have been a mechanism that created god. But, if there truly were nothing before the beginning, that precludes there from being the existence of this mechanism.

[NotTheist]

68. Silly

Just because people believe this does not make it any less stupid.

Nor des it make it rational.

It as an absolutely stupd belief.

[Roland99]

3. He always has been and He always will be

Or at least that's the answer the faithful will provide.

Does that makes sense? Of course not. But when one lives by faith alone, logic is a frequent victim.

[imdjh]

5. It was pretty advanced thinking for people who were one foot out of the cave.

The idea that before there was substance there was thought and that thought creates substance.

Of course, this suggests that the Jews MIGHT have borrowed this from some passing Hindu, but that wouldn't make it less amazing that people who almost certainly had more to do than sit around contemplating the meaning of the universe, sat around contemplating the origin of the universe.

As I understand it, the Chinese never put much thought into this. They pretty much accepted it as unknowable and irrelevant. Clever people those Chinese.

[mwb970]

4. The question cannot be answered, because it cannot be asked.

It is "ill-formed", meaning that it contains an unverified assumption within it, namely that something created God.

It's a little like asking "What kind of string holds the moon up?" or "Why do we have an appendix?" Same problem.

[imdjh]

7. You can explain why the moon is where is it. You cannot explain how you get something from nothing.

[hobbit709]

6. "Men rarely if ever have created a god superior to themselves

Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child"-R.A.H.

[DainBramaged]

9. I can see where this is going

:eyes:

Another opportunity for the Christian bashers to load up.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. When Christians bash gays, they put people in the hospital

yet they like to claim that hearing criticism is the same as a baseball bat to the head, or organized efforts to revoke human rights. It goes around, then comes around. As some old hippy told them that it would.

[AllentownJake]

15. I'm Christian

Pro-Gay Marriage, Pro-Choice, and don't consider the people you are talking about as adherents to my faith.

[DainBramaged]

16. As am I , yet we ALWAYS get lumped in with the Fundies....

by those would would consider Christian-bashing blood-sport. We must be tolerant of their causes but they don't have to be tolerant of our Faith.

I love the hypocrisy of DU. :sarcasm:

[AllentownJake]

18. Christianity isn't the problem

A warped Christianity being preached to an ignorant population is a problem. The problem is that Christianity is more attractive than real Christianity.

[DainBramaged]

21. It isn't Christianity being preached to deh stoopid

that's the problem. If it was, we'd have a whole different world.

[pipi_k]

22. Just wondering...

Which group are you more pissed off with...


The people who bash Christianity in general because of a few (or more than a few) bad apples, kooks, and assholes?

Or the bad apples, kooks, and assholes who GIVE Christianity a bad name to begin with?


The reason I ask is because I've seen too many Christians who direct most of their anger toward people who bash Christianity (or Christians) with what may or may not be good reason, than I see them telling members of their religion to stop the insanity. Maybe I'm looking at this whole issue through my own viewpoint...because if it were me, I'd be pissed as hell at the Christian kooks who made the rest of us look like idiots. I think I would seriously have to tell those people to shut the hell up.

:shrug:

[DainBramaged]

24. DU pisses me off because many here who DEMAND respect for their outlook on life piss on ours

And I'm done talking to you, time to turn the other cheek.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. Read the thread with honesty

No one said a word against your faith. Then you claimed theu were about to, so you started complaining in advance. Called oppression in the midst of a discussion about the origins of God.
Jesus told you to rejoice when mocked or persecuted for his sake. Not to whine about it in advance of any such mockery. To rejoice when it occurs. Not to predict it and demand respect for yourself over a 'bashing' that has not happened.
I say I have quoted you Scripture to support my position. Feel free to do the same.

[pipi_k]

53. I'm glad you mentioned it because I thought it was just me...

or maybe it is just me and a faulty perception...I dunno...

But I sort of got the feeling that the reply to my question "Just wondering" was rather snotty and defensive. And it was an honest question, too, that's what sucks.

People come here and yell and scream about us "Christian bashers" like we're the real problem. We're not. It's the "Christians" who pervert Christianity, and it's their fellow Christians who won't call them out on it.


Then we get the ones who can't seem to abide any criticism of their religion whatsoever, even when it isn't directed toward them personally. It's like they're identifying themselves so closely or so completely as Christians that they can't separate their own egos from the religion itself.

It's no longer "I practice Christianity" or "I live Christianity"...no...it becomes "I am Christianity". Insult Christianity, and you (collective) insult them.

anyway. Thanks for mentioning what I thought was an unprovoked bit of snarkiness to an honest question I had asked. :)

[pipi_k]

27. I'm not sure I understand the whole statement...

is the "I'm done talking to you" meant for me personally?

Or was it a continuation of how some here act...As in they want respect but don't want to give it and they say "I'm talking to you..."

[EvolveOrConvolve]

58. Was the OP disprespecting your faith?

And if so, how?

Remember, questioning is not the same as disrespect.

[AllentownJake]

25. The warped Christians

They question my salvation and whether or not I'm a Christian as well. There can be no conversation between the two groups.

My Christianity is based on a poor boy from Nazareth who looked at humanity and saw its flaws and had a plan to address some of them. For this the powers that be nailed him to the cross. The Romans, didn't like leaders that they hadn't selected and a poor boy from Nazareth was not someone they'd select. The Pharisees because he was preaching a direct commune with God that didn't involve the Temple system.

Jesus may have died for our sins, but in order to understand the story you must understand why the powers that be would want to kill him. Why was Jesus murdered is the fundamental question every Christian should ask before they can understand what it means to take up your cross and follow me.

Honestly his Deity is minor to me. He was one of the first radicals in history to actually openly question authority and develop a following.

The Christians I dislike are very focused on the Old Testament. They read the Old Testament the wrong way.

[pipi_k]

29. Oh, I know there's no way to have sane conversations with them, but

even so, I don't see very many of the "true" Christians...the ones who actually live the words and philosophy of Jesus...going out there and protesting (protesting VEHEMENTLY!!!) what can only be called a gross perversion of the better, gentler side of Christianity.

To me, a lack of protest...loud and verbal protest...equates to acceptance. Instead, I see lots of anger directed toward those of us who, for reasons of our own, have huge issues with Christianity/religion.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? I don't want to have a bad attitude toward all Christians, but it just seems that even the better ones are too scared to protest against the "Christians" who ruin it all for them. And I wonder why...are there things I just don't see?

[AllentownJake]

32. We have learned protesting them

Only feeds into their persecution complex. It's a Catch 22, if you debate them they pull obscure parts of the Bible and beat you over the head with it, mostly Old Testament or something from an epistle.

If you would protest their choice they'd rejoice and think that they were suffering for Christ. They want a fight because they believe they are fighting for Jesus (you see the irony when the early Christians went to their death willingly with no physical fight with the Romans, and the Savior as well told Peter to put away his sword.)

Not really sure the best way to combat them, at the Gay Pride festivals I've volunteered at ignoring them seems to be the best way is to ignore them.

[pipi_k]

35. See this is what I find sort of annoying...

Christians...who would have more credibility that, say, agnostics or atheists...are afraid to protest the RW fundynuts because of their persecution complexes.

And so they hold you all hostage.


I ask, so what if they want to screech about being "persecuted"? Do any of you really care about what they think?

In fact, their yelling bloody murder about being "persecuted" just because their fellow Christians think they're going overboard only adds to their overall appearance of being idiots. They look even MORE crazy. Oh, granted, not to themselves, but to those whose opinions you all say you care about...the non-believers.

I want to see non-Fundy Christians call out the kooks.

See, because when all I see is silence, I begin to think...rightly or wrongly...that you're all the same. I mean, can you really blame me/us for thinking that?

[AllentownJake]

43. It's also a cultural thing

Christians from the reasonable branches aren't as in your face about their faith.

[pipi_k]

47. Yes, I know that...

I think maybe I'm not making my point or something.

I know there are good and decent people who are also Christians.


But when I don't see those people calling out the ones who give them all a bad name, I do, much to my own chagrin, tend to lump everyone together.


I want the "good" Christians to get in the faces of the ones who suck. I don't want them to sit there and rant against me because I hate religion.


OK I'll try explaining this another way.

Not all women are money-grubbing witches out to screw men over in divorce court.

I know some men who have been burned a couple of times by that sort of woman...ex wives who took them for everything they had just because they could. I don't mean the one who are trying to protect their own, or their childrens' interests...I mean the ones who want to utterly destroy their ex husbands. Men who have gone through that feel they're justified in thinking ALL women are the same, and if they come to me complaining, what's the logical thing to do?

Number one, explain to them that not all women are like that.

Number two, call out the women who do stuff like that, not cheer them on, or silently sit by and say nothing as they do whatever shitty things they're going to do and make the rest of us women look bad.

I don't automatically let women get away with shit like that just because we share the same XY chromosomes. I'll tell 'em what I think of them.

[JerseygirlCT]

59. LOL, and do you really think that any one of us telling them to

"shut up" would have had any demonstrable effect on them?

It's often assumed that since they continue to awful and intolerant, that the fault lies with Christians like those here - because we haven't stopped them. We haven't got that power, and they don't even consider us fellow Christians.

IOW, your telling them to shut the hell up will have about the same impact as my telling them so... that is, none at all.

Example is the more powerful solution. So it's much better to judge people (Christian or no) by their individual actions - not any group assignment.

[rd_kent]

64. You are lumped in with the fundies because you do nothing ABOUT the fundies.

If you are not part of FIXING your religion and taking it back from those that corrupt it, you are part of the problem.

[Bluenorthwest]

23. I don't either

But then again, this thread was about the origins of God, not about Christianity. Christianity was injected into the conversation in a way that to me is counter to the teachings of that faith. Jesus, as I am sure you know, told his followers that they would be mocked, and even persecuted for their faith, and he told them to rejoice when that happens. So when folks are talking about God's origins and that is called out in advance as being a 'bashing of Christians' I find that to be the very opposite of rejoicing when mocked, it is in fact complaining about being mocked when no such thing has happened. The irony is thick. If only the teacher's words were honored, by those who claim the teacher, we'd hear much less whining about 'bashings'. The choice of words is bothersome, as violent bashings of many minorities do occur in this country, Christians are not among that number as victims, although they claim to be if someone looks at them oddly. Muslims and Shieks, Gays and Lesbians, these groups really do get attacked, with violence and political oppression, and those who do the attacking are often wearing a cross when they do it. So the unbashed claim persecution. In advance of any harsh word toward their faith.
Had that poster not made that aggressive post using hyperbolic words, I'd not have engaged on that dogmatic world at all. But start claiming that you all get 'bashed' and the time to compare and contrast actual bashings arrives.
Jesus said rejoice, celebrate, not assume in advance you will be mocked and complain about it with hyperbole.
I suggest that the Teacher is correct, and that those who claim him are not correct. My respect goes to the Teacher, not the exploiters of that Teacher.

[AllentownJake]

28. I think its important people know that there are different Christians than

the ones on the right. If they still want to bash me for believing in a God fine, but don't be intellectually lazy by stereotyping an entire religion based on the radical elements of it.

[Bluenorthwest]

31. When did I say the whole religion was like that?

My point here is that no one was criticizing anyone's faith, and a self proclaimer declared that they were about to. That was an act of aggression based on assumptions, and it was diametrically opposed to the Teachings of Christ. So I pointed that out.
It is intellectually and theologically dishonest to claim to practice a religion that one simply does not practice. Jesus said rejoice when mocked. He did not say 'assume in advance you will be mocked for my sake, and demand respect loudly for my name's sake' now did he?
When some guy claims to eat kosher as he picks pulled pork from his teeth, I simply reject the assertion of kosherness. "I'm a Christian" is easy to type, but hard to live, it seems.
Here we have a person proclaiming righteousness and another quoting Christ. Odd, that.

[AllentownJake]

33. "When Christians bash gays"

I was simply responding, I don't bash gay people and I'm a Christian.

[DainBramaged]

34. I have a feeling we are dealing with those who are 'other' and simply looking to

try and embarrass those of us WHO take their bait. It's strange to be lectured on teachings and be criticized for believing in those teachings.


Stay if you must, but this is as I predicted, a dead end thread. No serious discussion of our beliefs is going to occur.

[AllentownJake]

38. Some people don't understand

I believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ. It doesn't mean I am Jesus Christ. Which is sometimes the problem. They will go out of their way to show how hypocritical you are on something, and most times I will agree. I might be a hypocrite on something.

[DainBramaged]

44. I question my Faith every day, and I protest those who bastardize my Faith

but my Faith is MY Faith, and I don't wish anyone to take up MY Faith because they need to learn their own Faith first. One big difference between those of us who have FOUND Christ and those who demand EVERYONE should accept Him.


:hug:

[Bluenorthwest]

42. And not all gay people have been bashed either

My post offered many things to reply to. Your assumption that I would generalize about members of a huge religion is about your own issues, not mine.

Had this not gone as it did, I'd have been talking about the Logos, the breath, the creation, the thought becoming word, the word becoming fact. I've had a lifetime of such talks. They never start with someone proclaiming in advance that they are about to be insulted.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. I am specifically speaking to one person

in detail, with Scriptural support. What I get back are accusations toward me personally, with no response to the quotes from Christ which say to do the opposite of what is being done under his label here today.
Amazing. There is a rule called Golden. I offer it should be followed.

[AllentownJake]

41. I'm sorry I offended you in some way

my point was not to call you out per se. I was simply trying to point out their are Christians that don't do what you just said.

As for the entire Christian thing, I believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, it doesn't mean necessarily that I am Jesus Christ. If I was capable of perfectly following his teachings in every way I wouldn't have much need for him would I.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. In love, Jake, the fact that you assume I don't know that is a problem

I attended Christian schools, and churches for years on end, and still occasionally ummm, speak at churches. Some would call it preaching. As I am doing here today. Funny is it not?
So your assumptions are very much off base.
I am also sorry if you saw my first post as being about all Christians. The point was supposed to be about the use of modest and accurate speech, and about how one is supposed to deal with mockery, which is with joy, after it occurs, not with venom, when no mockery has happened. The word 'bash' is not one I would use. There is no need for such loaded language. As you noticed, hyperbole does not feel good. Fact is, 'Christians' organize and at time physically attack my people, and we do not respond to them in kind. So hearing that Christians get 'bashed' on DU pisses me off. It is not moderate speech, it it is not 'your yes being yes'. It is a word chosen for impact. A word far more applicable to actions by 'Christians' toward others. Actions that in all honesty are very rarely spoken against by 'the good Christians'. Who gets bashed by whom is just a matter of record. Who organizes against whom is also a matter of record. And yet, y'all get 'bashed'? Really?
I'd just like to see less of the floor stomping for respect, and more action toward cleaning your own community, your own house.

[AllentownJake]

51. Cleaning up our own house is difficult

Frankly speaking they don't want to talk or listen and think we are part of the anti-christ's one world religion.

[Bluenorthwest]

55. Did anyone tell you it would be easy? Is it supposed to be?

Does the level of difficulty allow for mitigation of one's duties?
It just gets old hearing the whining, especially when there has been no criticism of that faith. There is clearly much you could all be doing to clear your faith's good name, and bitching at people here for taking dogma to task is not on that list. Jumping on DUers for doing nothing while Phelps and McClurkin wander freely is just a poor choice to make in my book. A hard corner to hold.
Frankly speaking, it is not the righties that you here seem concerned with speaking to, it is those who hold expectations of your faith, negative or positive. And I think that is correct. The right will not listen to you, but that does not mean you should not be speaking out, so that others can hear. So that people WILL know that you are not all like Fred. It is your job to make that clear. It is not other people's job. At all.
And this routine of referring to people as "other" is not very helpful.

[Gman2]

45. That is horseshit. Most bashers are Christian in family name only.

I hate to tell you this, but it is IMPOSSIBLE, to channel the savior, to hate others. That is NOT coming from anyone ever named Jesus. Those that are religious, because they were born ar forced to it, are the hater vanguard. It is simple, and erroneous, to lay hate on christianity. It is simple human nature, and in some instances damaged human nature, that is the culprit.

[pipi_k]

14. Bah...I'm an equal opportunity basher...

I'll bash just about any organized religion whose believers attempt to force their own standards and beliefs on the rest of us, however they try to do it.

;)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. If you are bored AND serious. Check out Nassim Haramein... either

on youtube or here... your call.

http://www.niburu.nl/index.php?articleID=18715

[Bluenorthwest]

13. That photo is amazing

[HysteryDiagnosis]

17. Uh.... yeah... there are those who feel that we are being shown

things we need to know. There are others who believe two drunken men with ropes and boards are artistic wizards.

[Bluenorthwest]

19. Many artistic wizards are drunken men and women

and at times they do show us things we need to know. But I was speaking of the aesthetics of the photo, not of the origins. Is there some backstory?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

52. If you will look at Nassim Harameins lectures on youtube, OR if

you will click on the link provided you will get a rather eye opening experience into the potential origin/potential meaning of this crop circle.

[CanSocDem]

54. Excellent web page...

Thanks for posting.

[madokie]

20. Up too when I was about 14 years old

I thought I believed in there being a god but when the dots being painted for me to follow didn't paint the picture I was being told it would I quit doing that, believing in god or the bible. The church our Dad started back in '52 is still having services today. That belief that our dad had was good in that it got him off the bottle but it was only a crutch like his drinking before that was.

[Aragorn]

30. Jethro Tull

Listen to Aqualung.

[lunatica]

37. What came before the Big Bang?

Perhaps sometime we'll know the answer to both questions. But to assume that there's no answer or that the question itself proves or disproves something is creating limitations that maybe don't exist.

[JerseygirlCT]

60. I like this. nt

[darkstar3]

61. Mutual consent, apparently...

Oh, sorry, wrong forum...

[bigwillq]

39. God does not exist (nt)

[lunatica]

46. Can you prove that?

[rd_kent]

65. Maybe....

Man has been searching for evidence of god from the beginning, yet none is to be found. While not 100% proof, it stands to reason that no evidence has been found because none exists.
Nonetheless, those that profess the EXISTENCE of god bear the responsibility to prove their claim. Otherwise, if I claim that aliens are real and you cannot prove they are not, doen not make me correct. The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim.

[Mari333]

40. stop thinking in terms of linear 'time' and it makes more sense

since there is no such thing as 'time', everything just is. there is no 'before' or 'after'.

[The Straight Story]

49. Think about it like this:

A programmer writes a program that becomes self aware, it is limited to it's universe but the coder is not.

While the AI program has to obey they laws of it's universe, the creator does not.

Now the program can ask 'Where did the Programmer come from?' and the answer is, does it matter or mean they don't exist because it cannot answer the question?

[Fumesucker]

56. But the programmer didn't always exist..

At least we know of no programmers that have existed for eternity.

[Ready4Change]

62. The programmer controls time.

The programmer can halt the program. Suspend it. Modify it so that it runs forward and backwards. The AI program exists within the rules created by the programmer, and knows only those rules. To the AI, the programmer has always been. The programmer literally exists outside the AIs frame of reference, and the programmers world may be unknowable to the AI.

Or, the AI may be living within a cheap stage mockup of a universe, and will someday figure out how to look behind the painted backdrop and see what 'really is.' But, without a firm frame of reference, the AI doesn't know where the painted backdrop is, and thus has no idea when it will be able to peak around it, it ever.

[gopiscrap]

50. THERE IS NO GOD, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

[rd_kent]

63. Ignorant men created god for the purpose of conrolling other people.

It's all about power and control.

[struggle4progress]

66. The answer is: You need to learn to enjoy the rain. It's really quite lovely in it's own way.

You can have all sorts of places to yourself by venturing out on rainy days

[ZombieHorde]

67. Gary Gygax. nt