What does morality have to do with organized religion?

[DaveinJapan]

I read on another topic someone who claimed "as moral and spiritual beings, religion should feed our souls", and frankly that makes no sense to me at all.

First of all, if I need to "feed" my moral conscience, I do so by examining works and good deeds by others, finding the best in people and trying to incorporate such things into my endeavors, and most importantly trying my best to be compassionate and loving towards those around me...

But here's my question. How is being a member of big religion somehow "moral"? I don't get it.

[LatteLibertine]

1. IMO

you don't have to belong to an organized religion to practice things like treat others as you wish to be treated.

Some people in organized religion are indeed moral people and others are certainly not. That's going off what they do, not what they say.

I find it remarkable that some in organized religion are overly concerned with the activities of gay people and not with the plight of the poor.

[Madam Mossfern]

2. I think that you've got it a bit mixed up

Of course one does not automatically become moral by joining a church or any other religious institution. But if one goes to services, listens to sermons and studies scripture, one learns lessons about morality. It is up to the individual to incorporate these lessons into practice in their own lives.

That doesn't mean that in order to be moral, one must be an adherent to any specific religion or any religion at all. If all you need is to study and emulate people who you consider inspirational and moral, that's fine too. Different strokes for different folks.

The question of the morality of religious movements is when they cast aspersions on religious groups that are not theirs, or those who don't ascribe to any religion and claim they can't possibly be moral because they dance to a different tune in the same songbook.

[laconicsax]

6. What's the moral lesson of Jephthah?

A man who makes a deal with God that if God helps him slaughter tens of thousands of people, he'll sacrifice a member of his household is remembered in the New Testament as a great defender of the faith.

How about Lot? A man who offered his two daughters to a crowd to be gang-raped then gets them pregnant himself is remembered in the New Testament as a righteous man.

How about Ezekiel chapter 23, where God gives instructions on what to do with two 'loose' women?

How about Judges 19? A Levite played the Job game, only this time the crowd took one of the women and raped her all night. The women collapses at the doorstep, so the Levite takes her inside (presumably still alive), cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends a piece to each of the twelve tribes.

How about all the times when Jesus tells his followers that he'll reward them if they abandon their families?

How about when Paul says that the "natural use" of women is male sexual gratification? When he says how women must never teach or have any authority over men?

[hobbit709]

3. I never went to church growing up, no one in my family did.

I learned morals quite well without it.
I also learned about hypocrisy from the actions of the self-proclaimed "moral values" crowd.

[rd_kent]

8. I learned my "morals" by pretty much doing the OPPOSITE

of what religion teaches. I too, took my cues and examples from those that I thought were doping good things, and treat people how I would like to be treated. No religion required for THAT lesson.

[geckosfeet]

4. Bumper sticker: Going to church no more makes you a christian than going swimming makes you a fish.

Substitute 'moral person' for christian.

One makes one-self moral, despite external influences not because of them.

[hgovernick]

5. Very little...

in my experience. I agree with your approach... I find more food for my moral appetite by examining the works and deeds of others and learning my lessons therein.

Everything else, for me, is personal between my Maker and me. And that relationship I can't sell to anyone else regardless of how talented a preacher I might ever become.

[rd_kent]

7. It isn't. Period.

The sheer amount of hypocrisy in religion and the actions/words of the religious should be proof enough that that just is not the case.

[Jim__]

9. I think religion can definitely affect morality.

It's a little difficult to answer your question because there is somewhat of a disconnect between the quote that you cite: as moral and spiritual beings, religion should feed our souls and the question that you ask: How is being a member of big religion somehow "moral"?.

Nevertheless, as an answer, I will say that I think religion can definitely affect morality. Take the case of a Jewish child in Nazi occupied Europe who asks for your help to escape the Nazis (I will cite a real world case below). Suppose that you have a family, say 3 young children. Should you try to help the child? The chances are fairly slim that you can succeed in actually helping the child escape. If you are caught trying to help, the Nazis will probably kill you and your family. You may bring tremendous hardship on your neighborhood. From a utilitarian point of view, you probably should not help. However, if you believe that there is a god and that this god metes out ultimate justice, then there is a better case for helping. Any bad consequences to your family and your neighbors will ultimately be made up.

Samuel Oliner was a Jewish child whose family was killed in the holocaust, yet he survived because people helped him. After the war, Oliner researched what type of person does this, risks their own life to save the life of a stranger. Oliner researched this trying to identify the attributes of an altruistic personality, a controversial assertion. But, I don't believe that his data is controversial. One of the attributes that he identified was religion. It's not a necessary attribute, but it is a frequent attribute. An article by Oliner talks a little bit about his ideas.

I am not claiming that only religious people will act this way. I am saying that I believe religion is a factor in the equation. I believe the world is a better place if we help innocent children in grave danger, even if by helping we endanger our own family. You can argue that this belief alone is sufficient to get me to help the child. It may be. But, I believe the stronger case is that ultimately justice will prevail and any price my family and my neighbors pay will be made up.

Moral questions can be extremely difficult to evaluate. I think religion can enter into this evaluation. At the very least, it should not be dismissed out of hand.

[Jim__]

10. Note: the article cited in the above post contains descriptions of extreme violence. - n/t

[moobu2]

12. During the Holocaust, well over 95% of the German population were Christians

[Jim__]

13. I'm not sure what your point is.

If it is that this leads to the conclusion that Oliner's sample was primarily composed of religious people, then be aware that his sample was not limited to Germany. His basis for including an attribute as one that led to altruistic action was that the altruistic person cited this attribute as a large contibuting factor to his action. It's not the person's general background that's important, it's what attributes contributed to his action.

If your point is that many religious people did not act heroically, it's not particularly relevant to my point. Most people don't act heroically - no matter what their belief system. Oliner's research was for the attributes that people who had acted heroically saw as important to their heroic behavior.

Your response, lacking any analytical detail, goes to my point that these questions should not be dismissed out of hand. The questions are not simple and a simplistic citation of a statistic is not particularly informative.

[Silent3]

11. What does disorganized religion have to do with morality?

Having a New-Agey grab bag of superstitions or a self-styled "personal relationship with God" doesn't necessarily make a person moral either.

[jonnyblitz]

14. not a DAMN thing. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

15. I don't get your question, either.

You seem to simply be taking the flip-side of the argument that without religion one can't be moral.

For many people, religion IS how they feed their souls. Being a member of anything doesn't make one moral - but many religious people behave very morally.

The thing is, you find the moral and immoral in all places, of many beliefs.

[Ready4Change]

16. Religion uses the concept of morality as a tool.

Many tools in a religions toolbox. Morality is one of them. What a religion uses that concept FOR is a good measure of the religion in question.

[gk88850]

17. Very little

[iris27]

18. Beats me.

:shrug:

My personal experience with morality and religion started out as extreme confusion, because when I was growing up, the things my church was telling me were moral and right seemed very, very unjust to me. Women were lesser and unfit for church leadership roles, gays were inherently evil and hell-bound, and ALL of the church's offering intake went to run its own operations. The members got to take a nice tax deduction for what was essentially country club dues.

My confusion cleared up as I got older and realized that my church and its teachings were full of shit.

[jemelanson]

19. What is Morality?

"Morality is the sum of the choices a person makes, it comes out of a personal set of values, that is, one's way of living inside a worldview and the ethical framwork it implies. Where one's ethics will give a person and idea about what the ideal type of "good" might ge, given his/her worldview, the concrete decisions a person makes about good and bad, appropriate and inappropriate, right and wrong, define his/her moral outlook." Taken from "An Ye Harm None: Magical Morality and Modern Ethics" by Shelley TSivia Rabinovitch and Meredith Macdonald.
What are Ethics? from the same book.
"Ethicx are about one's worldview. They arise out of how one understands the relationships between human beings, the natural world, and one's notion of the divine, however conceived. Ethics come out of a person's worldview because how one sees the world always informs his/her ieeas about 'right' and 'good.' Values are the abstract statements about goodness, beauty, and relative worth that underlie the judgments one makes about how one wishes to live."