Conservative Lutherans organize after vote on Gays

[LuvNewcastle]

http://www.sunherald.com/newsupdates/story/1629840.html

FISHERS, Ind. -- Conservative members of the nation's largest Lutheran denomination voted Saturday to spend the next 12 months deciding whether to split from the church after it liberalized its stance on gay clergy.

About 1,200 people meeting in suburban Indianapolis approved a constitution for the conservative umbrella group Lutheran CORE and a resolution directing its steering committee to report back in a year on whether to stay within the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, form their own denomination or join another.

Some members urged the assembly to more quickly sever ties with the 4.7-million member ELCA after the vote last month to allow gays and lesbians in committed relationships to serve as clergy, dropping a requirement that gay clergy remain celibate.
Lutherans Gays Lutherans Gays Lutherans Gays
AP Photo - Pastor Al Towberman of Butler, Pa., applauds after a resolution was passed to study splitting off from the nation's largest Lutheran organization, at the Lutheran Coalition for Reform (CORE) conference in Fishers, Ind., Saturday, Sept. 26, 2009. The Lutheran CORE group objects to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's vote last month to allow openly gay people to serve as clergy.



"Some congregations already have voted to leave ELCA," CORE's chairman, the Rev. Paull Spring of State College, Pa., said at a news conference afterward. "Others have not voted or do not intend to leave ELCA."

[Democrats_win]

1. Conservatives are not followers of Jesus per John 13:34-35

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+13%3A34-35&version=NIV

34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

[LuvNewcastle]

3. I wonder if we're going to see

a merger of liberal denominations -- the ELCA, the UCC, and some United Methodists and Presbyterians. Maybe even some Baptists and liberal Quakers, too. There are some theological differences, of course, but I think many of these people are close enough in their beliefs that they could work within the same denomination.

[struggle4progress]

5. Full Communion

... Currently, the ELCA shares full communion relationships with five churches ... http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Ecumenical-and-Inter-Religious-Relations/Full-Communion.aspx

[LuvNewcastle]

7. I didn't know about that.

It says at the link that they can even exchange clergy. That's quite a big step towards unity.

[struggle4progress]

8. The Lutherans have also been trying to work out full communion with the Catholics

for many years, but I'd guess that's gonna take at least a few generations

[Critters2]

10. The United Methodists and Presbyterians are anti-gay.

I would hope the pro-gay denominations would not merge with them. Honestly, if the UCC merged with the UMC while the UMC hold the position it now does on glbt issues, I'd try to move my standing to the UUA.

[LuvNewcastle]

13. Oh, I didn't think that all the Methodists and

Presbyterians would want to merge with the ELCA, the UCC, etc. I just thought that the liberal congregations might want to. There have been arguments within the UMC and the Presbyterian church over this same issue. I'm thinking that what might evolve eventually is something like the United Church of Canada.

[Critters2]

14. The problem with that in those denominations is that local congregations

don't own their property. I'm always amazed at how churches love their buildings, and won't leave, no matter how strongly they feel about an ethical or theological issue, if it means a loss of property. Property is actually the big stick the denominations use to keep congregations from leaving. And really the UMC is becoming more and more conservative. At every General Conference, they reaffirm their anti-gay stance. I think it's time we admitted that the UMC is not a liberal denomination.

[LuvNewcastle]

16. I didn't think about property ownership.

I was raised Southern Baptist, and all the churches within the denomination owned their own property. If a church was dissatisfied, they could always leave. As for the Methodists, I know some who are really liberal and I know others who would be at home with the Southern Baptists. The UMC isn't a liberal denomination, but it has plenty of liberals within it. I think that church is being held together by a string.

[Critters2]

17. I keep hearing there are plenty of liberals in the UMC, but I see no evidence of it.

The official position of the UMC is that "homosexuality is incompatible with the Christian faith". All UMC clergy are supposed to affirm this and the other doctrinal positions of the UMC. How can a liberal do that?

[LuvNewcastle]

18. That isn't liberal.

But there aren't many places for liberals to go, at least in the Deep South, if they want to attend church. Down here, the Methodists are considered pretty liberal, second to the Episcopalians. There is a small Unitarian congregation in the next town over from me, but I think they only have about 20 members. It's all relative, really. Liberals down here just accept the fact that they aren't going to agree with everything their church teaches.

[54anickel]

20. First UMC in Madison is "welcoming". I've been there a couple of times for the

David Lyons lecture series. Those were my first real contacts with UMC and my impression was they were quite liberal. Obviously, each congregation is different and this one is located in the heart of Madison on the square..... :shrug:


http://www.wisconsinumc.org/madison-firstumc/welcome.htm

Mission Statement

We seek to embody grace and hospitality in the manner of Jesus, nurturing our diverse spiritual journeys and joining together as a servant community to help realize a more loving and just world.

Welcoming Statement for First United Methodist Church of Madison
Passed by the Annual Church Conference November 6, 1999

Homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth. All persons need the ministry and guidance of the church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and
emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others and with self. (Quoted from the UMC Social Principles.)

Lesbian/Gay persons are often scorned by society and alienated from the Church. Therefore, we affirm that Lesbian/Gay persons are welcomed and embraced within the membership of First United Methodist Church upon making the same affirmation of faith that all other persons make; and that as members of the Body of Christ and First United Methodist Church, Lesbian/Gay people are expected and encouraged to share in liturgy, general life, employment and leadership of our congregation.

Their visoning statement is also quite welcoming and ecumenical.

[Critters2]

22. Sorry, I don't buy it. They consciously choose to be part of a denomination

whose position on glbt issues is EXACTLY the same as that of the Southern Baptist Convention. United Methodists need to be called on their choice to straddle the line on this. Either one does believe that "homosexuality is incompatible with the Christian faith", or one believes the statements above. It is not possible to do both. Yet, "liberal" Methodists insist that they have some special ability to hold two polar opposite beliefs at the same time. Can't be done. The choice to be United Methodist automatically makes one anti-gay. If they had an ounce of courage, they'd leave a denomination that actively hates gay people. Yet, they don't.

[54anickel]

23. Who are the "they" you refer to? The congregation members? The Ministers? The Leaders? All of

the aforementioned? :shrug:

I am not UMC, so can't speak to what the UMC official line is.

I am ELCA, and while it's been a long road, I am grateful that those "liberals" seeds took hold and were allowed to help foster a transformation of their denomination and congregations. We ALL still have a long way to go in becoming what God envisions us to be.


On edit:

Looks like they are where the ELCA was until this recent change with regards to openly gay clery....I will be interesting now that they've entered into the Common Communion with ELCA.

Thought the resolutions linked at the bottom of the page seem in direct opposition to the following snippet. They certainly appear to be talking out of both sides of their mouth....

http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1324

snip>

Regarding clergy

¶ 304.3

While persons set apart by the Church for ordained ministry are subject to all the frailties of the human condition and the pressures of society, they are required to maintain the highest standards of holy living in the world. The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals1 are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church.2
1. "Self-avowed practicing homosexual" is understood to mean that a person openly acknowledges to a bishop, district superintendent, district committee of ordained ministry, board of ordained ministry, or clergy session that the person is a practicing homosexual. See Judicial Council Decisions 702, 708, 722, 725, 764, 844, 984.
2. See Judicial Council Decisions 984, 985.

[Critters2]

24. "They" is the United Methodist Church. And they're not really where the ELCA

was until recently. The ELCA never used the hateful language that the UMC does, and never had the southern conservative contingent that is now really the core of the UMC. The UMC is a very conservative denomination. There are a tiny group that keep trying to pretend there's room for liberals in it, but they have no real voice. The UMC demonstrates no movement on this issue. The ELCA was slowly making progress over this issue for the last 10-15 years. The UMC has moved not an inch. And shows no signs that it's going to.

It would help if liberals would stop excusing the UMC for its hate speech. As long as the liberal line is "they're not really like that", the UMC will get a pass for its anti-gay position. It gets no such pass from me.

[54anickel]

25. I'm certainly not excusing them, as stated I didn't know much about them outside of

my experience in Madison. It sounds like you have quite a bit of first hand knowledge - all I have is my experience in Madison and what I found on their website as previously posted. I'm not saying "they're not really like that"...what I am saying is it has not been apparent in my very limited experiences with the UMC. I have no idea what they are really like. I first found the hateful language you mentioned after looking at their site today.

Yes, I stand corrected, the ELCA leadership did not use the hateful language of the UMC in their previous stand of disallowing actively gay clergy. I was speaking to the similarity of disallowing gay clergy. The official ELCA stance was against sexual relations outside of marriage, (though that was not the understanding of many members, hence the schism).

[msongs]

2. gotta love those bible believers and their refusal to honor ALL of it nt

[tularetom]

4. "Conservative Lutherans" is from the Department of Redundancy Department

I've never met any other kind, including my grandparents.

[Odin2005]

6. My family are all Lutherans and they are all raging Liberals.

[struggle4progress]

9. Are they Missouri or Wisconsin synod?

[tularetom]

19. I couldn't tell you - they've both been dead for many years

But they lived near Nashville TN if that means anything.

They were extremely compassionate and caring people, especially my grandmother, but they were also extremely old school and uncomfortable with "progress".

I don't mean "conservative" in a bad way.

[JerseygirlCT]

12. Which sort of Lutheran?

The ELCA is pretty liberal - the Missouri and Wisconsin however... whew, not.

[JerseygirlCT]

11. A point Lydia has made elsewhere, but

here's yet another example of the coverage more progressive denominations get.

Opposition to war? Statement on poverty? Yawn, nothing to see here, folks...

A minority of a large denomination allowing their bigotry to get the best of them? NATIONAL NEWS! SCHISM!

They've got plenty of options - let's hope they don't try to bring the place down around them on their way out...

[Critters2]

15. Dont ELCA congregations own their property?

If so, why don't they just quietly go join the AFLC or LCMS or someone? I agree with you. Why are they getting press coverage?

[54anickel]

21. The congregation I worship with is split on the "issue", and I don't think we're an exception.

It would be anything but quiet in my little burb. The Pastor has held everyone together so far, with the anti-gay types just refusing to even discuss the topic. Yes, we're, like so many, a dysfunctional group.

I believe they do own the property as well. But, the ELCA provided/helped with the financing of a recent purchase of adjacent land. I would assume there would need to be a pay-off of the debt if they decided to quietly join another group. I'm guessing that's one reason behind the CORE splinter group wanting to be remain within the ELCA...some sort of financial/ownership bind.