Reason's greetings: Atheists celebrate Christmas without Christ, and history is on their side

[Christa]

Walk into Blair Scott's home in Mobile on Christmas morning, and the scene will likely mirror those of countless families: twinkling lights and decorations hanging from the Christmas tree. Snowmen and Santa Claus figures scattered about the house. Strands of mistletoe hanging in the doorways.

When the rest of the family arrives, he'll endure a few hours' worth of Christmas carols.

"We celebrate like just about everybody else," Scott says. "The only thing missing in our house is a manger scene."

That's because Scott is the Alabama state director of American Atheists. But that doesn't mean he doesn't celebrate Christmas.

"(Christmas) is about so much more than Christians," he says. "Every civilization known has had some type of celebration around this time of year, and it has more to do with our human nature, our shared human spirit, than anything else."

Christmas has become such a cultural phenomenon that it is celebrated by people of all faiths, as well as atheists, agnostics and humanists. In Japan, where only about 2 percent of the population is Christian, Christmas is wildly popular. On Dec. 26, old trees will litter the streets, shiny wads of used wrapping paper will spill from garbage bags and lights that once sparkled in windows will be banished to the darkness of closets and attics.

For the average person on Christmas, religion is the second aspect. Go to any third-grade classroom and ask the kids, "What's Christmas?" and they're likely to shout out "Santa Claus" and "presents." The celebration of the birth of Jesus is an afterthought, Scott says.

"For most families, it's about tradition, not religion," he says. "And that's what allows people like myself to celebrate Christmas without the Jesus effect. Nobody goes to the mall to sit on Jesus' lap and visit with the 12 disciples."

Full article:

http://www.annistonstar.com/pages/full_story/push?article-Reason-s%20greetings-%20Atheists%20celebrate%20Christmas%20without%20Christ-%20and%20history%20is%20on%20their%20side%20&id=5222403-Reason-s%20greetings-%20Atheists%20celebrate%20Christmas%20withou

[rug]

1. That's irrational.

[The_Commonist]

2. What's irrational about it?

I was raised as a member of the American Christmas Religion, with the deities Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I've never been a Jesus worshipper, yet I have some seasonal decorations in my house. The whole athiest family will get together and have a dinner on December 25th. This article is just acknowledging that lots of people all over the world do something similar.

[rug]

3. If you were raised worshipping the deity Santa Claus, it is more than irrational.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

5. I think he was being facetious

regarding Santa as a deity.

[The_Commonist]

8. Who said anything about "worshipping" Santa Claus?

Most of our "Christmas" traditions are pagan traditions, that have nothing to do with the Baby Jesus.

[rug]

39. People who call things a deity usually worship it.

[Dorian Gray]

22. Exactly

it's a fun holiday. Just because people don't got to churches or believe in Christ doesn't mean that they shouldn't participate in the joys of celebrating... if they want to. If they don't, then nobody is forcing the holiday on them, either.

[eilen]

7. Actually not.

The holiday traditions associated with Christmas actually are borrowed from Yule. The Tree, the Yule log, even "Santa" or Odin.
From wiki:
Odin was sometimes recorded, at the native Germanic holiday of Yule, as leading a great hunting party through the sky.<15> Two books from Iceland, the Poetic Edda, compiled in the 13th century from earlier sources, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, describe Odin as riding an eight-legged horse named Sleipnir that could leap great distances, giving rise to comparisons to Santa Claus's reindeer.<16> Further, Odin was referred to by many names in Skaldic poetry, some of which describe his appearance or functions; these include Síðgrani,<17> Síðskeggr,<18> Langbarðr,<19> (all meaning "long beard") and Jólnir<20> ("Yule figure").
According to Phyllis Siefker, children would place their boots, filled with carrots, straw, or sugar, near the chimney for Odin's flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat. Odin would then reward those children for their kindness by replacing Sleipnir's food with gifts or candy.<21> This practice survived in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands after the adoption of Christianity and became associated with Saint Nicholas as a result of the process of Christianization and can be still seen in the modern practice of the hanging of stockings at the chimney in some homes.

We celebrate Yule. Today is the first day of 12. The candle is lit for industriousness. However, today is a break from industriousness-- it's a day of rest, a stop to the commercial frenzy " reap the rewards of your industriousness. Stop the action. Take a break. Go look at the stars or listen to the rain fall or feel the warmth of the fire or touch someone." Tonight is Mother's Night.

[Saboburns]

19. Actually our Xmas traditions are borrowed from the Roman's Saturnalia

And date at least two hundred years BC. During Saturnalia Romans exchanged gifts, enjoyed a holiday feast, and had w week of merriment with one day devoted to letting the slaves boss their owners aroundd

all of which occured during winter solstice.

Christians just borrowed these traditions but that's what all religions do.

[eilen]

25. i suppose in Rome they were borrowed from Saturnalia

However, the local celebrations for the return of the sun were also adapted from localities far from Rome by Christians/catholics.

[rug]

38. Is it any more rational for atheists to celebrate German paganism?

[uberllama42]

75. No one in my family believes in God

But we unapologetically celebrate Christmas. We understand its pagan origins, but it wouldn't be fair to say we celebrate them. We don't believe in Santa, we don't celebrate the birth of Christ, and we don't live a lifestyle in which the solstice itself is meaningful. None of those things have anything to do with our celebration. The origins of the holiday don't matter to us.

We enjoy the day off together, cook a nice dinner, exchange gifts and listen to Christmas music. We do these things because they bring us happiness. How is this irrational? Please explain.

[rd_kent]

12. The only thing irrational is your incoherent posts.

[rug]

17. Bias usually blocks comprehension.

Merry Christmas.

[rd_kent]

18. You certainly would know about that.

Happy Holidays

[newcriminal]

20. Which holy days?

[darkstar3]

53. That would be such a clever post,

if not for the fact that the word "holiday" hasn't been used to mean "Holy Day" in centuries. You need only check various schools around the world which refer to their summer break as "the summer holidays" to see that.

[whathehell]

69. Good one, Rug!

[rd_kent]

90. Good one? You and rug both lack comprehension due to your bias.

Its a good one if its describing you two.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

36. Thanks for leaving a steaming pile right at the beginning of the thread.

Getting us off to a good start. :thumbsup:

[rug]

37. What about rationality upsets you, Chadwick?

[ChadwickHenryWard]

74. Thanks for another steaming pile.

I hope you aren't expecting me to take you seriously. That would be a shame.

[rug]

78. You seem to be stuck.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

149. You seem to be unable to contribute anything but unconstructive, disruptive posts.

[iris27]

108. Thanks for reminding me why I have whoever you're responding to on ignore.

The one-sided conversation is quite amusing! :bounce:

[rug]

110. You'll find schizophrenia similarly amusing.

[darkstar3]

112. WTF?

Schizophrenia? How in the hell did you make that jump?

OH, I get it, you're being an ass, as usual. When in doubt, insult, right? That explains SO much of what you do here.

[rug]

113. "When in doubt, insult". Read your prior sentence.

[darkstar3]

117. Oh, I have no doubt at all,

that's not the problem. I KNOW you're an ass, and I don't care if people don't like it when I call 'em like I see 'em.

[rug]

118. Tsk, tsk.

That didn't take long at all.

[darkstar3]

120. What didn't take long?

You leaving piles of bullshit all over the thread? No it certainly did not, as evidenced by response #1 and continuing with everything you've contributed.

Or maybe you're complaining about the fact that I'm calling you names? Well, what did you expect? You don't even seem to realize that the position you've chosen in #1 is so off-the-wall, mind-numbingly stupid that it can only be mocked for its absurdity. Every time you try to defend it, you sound like more of an ass. So I will continue to refer to you as an ass, for there is no better way to respond to your inanity, and you will no doubt misconstrue silence on my part as victory on yours.

[rug]

121. I'm not complaining. In fact, I'm rather bemused by your flameout.

[darkstar3]

123. "Flameout" implies that I'm finished.

There's a whole lot more where that came from, but before I waste more time on your bullshit, I want you to answer #41.

[rug]

125. Whole lot more of what? Bitter anger disguised as thought?

[darkstar3]

127. Answer the question. n/t

[rug]

128. Make me. n/t

:eyes:

[darkstar3]

129. As I suspected.

You have no answer, only childish shit.

[rug]

132. Any interaction with you is, per se, childish shit.

[darkstar3]

134. Still avoiding the question. n/t

[rug]

136. No, I'm avoiding your engaging personality.

[darkstar3]

138. If you could provide any half-decent answer to #41,

you wouldn't have to worry about my "engaging personality." All I want you to do is support your argument.

[rug]

140. Sorry, my quota for stupidity and patholgy is filled. Check back tomorrow.

Meanwhile, feel free to read #139. Just don't expect a response until my quota is refreshed.

[darkstar3]

144. Now, see how easy that was?

All you had to do was write something that constituted an actual argument, and then you were able to refer to it elsewhere. You CAN be taught.

[rd_kent]

157. Yes, you are certainly full of stupidity, thats for sure.

[rd_kent]

156. ARe you describing yourself again, rug? Because if anyone is being childish, its YOU.

Again!

[ChadwickHenryWard]

150. First Post:

"That's irrational." This was followed by an extensive, yet concise, well-reasoned and respectful argument as to why an atheist might want to shy away from celebrating Christmas or any other solstice holiday.

No, not really. There was no argument whatsoever. Just that one line. Basically, our friend squeezed out a turd and promptly left. I couldn't help myself.

[darkstar3]

41. Please explain what is irrational about following cultural tradition. n/t

[Silent3]

82. The desperate desire for equivalency once again rears its ugly face.

You can't stand how atheists talk about religion being irrational, so you desperately look the for the slightest hint of irrationality among atheists, no matter how much you have to force it. Oh, yeah, this guy is really talking about worshiping Santa Claus as a deity, utterly abandoning all of the skepticism of the supernatural that leads him to atheism for Saint Nick, and, boy howdy, clever old Rug caught him at it! Now, in the face of accusations of irrationality, you can say, "Yeah! Well so are you!" :eyes:

Truly pathetic.

[trotsky]

85. Careful.

You're sure to be a victim of one of his clever single-subject-line ripostes!

[rug]

98. I take it, then, you do not object to Confederate car magnets. It's cultural after all.

[Silent3]

100. There's no sordid past associated with Santa

I don't even think that you think your retort has much merit, you're merely groping for whatever angle you think you can find to score a rhetorical point. This seems to be a pattern.

An atheist having a Santa decoration is more like pretty much anyone having, say, a toy R2D2 -- not any indication that you think Star Wars is real, just that you enjoy the story when it's taken as fun.

I doubt there's really any need to explain this to you.

[rug]

101. No, but the sordid past of Christianity is often posted here.

Illogical to celebrate it.

[darkstar3]

102. Even you don't think that non-Christians

who celebrate "Christmas" with things like trees, Santa, and gift exchanges are actually celebrating Christianity. That POV is just TOO asinine.

[rug]

103. Tell me, darkstar, what are you celebrating when you listen to O Holy Night? The diatonic scale?

[darkstar3]

104. Listening to music is now celebrating?

Wow. :crazy:

Aside from that, I have the ability to recognize a fine piece of composition and performance without giving two shits about the lyrics. It's called depth and complexity. Try it sometime.

[rug]

105. Listen to it in July.

[darkstar3]

106. Why not?

I have. It's an enjoyable piece of music when performed by a talented soprano. Just because I can enjoy the music doesn't mean that I'm somehow celebrating or giving credence to Christianity.

[iris27]

109. Yeah, no shit...replace the lyrics with a language you don't understand, and what sounds better?

O Holy Night, or I Want a Hippopotamus For Christmas? It's a simple matter of aesthetic preference.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

148. Some languages sound better than others.

Vocal majors have to study pronunciation in Italian, Spanish, German, French, Latin, and sometimes Russian. The words in truly fine pieces of art are chosen not just for their meaning, but for their sounds. This is why operas are always sung in their original language. To the well-trained ear, "Ode to Joy" loses something if not sung in German, Carmina Burana if not sung in Latin.

[rug]

114. Because the OP is about Christmas.

[darkstar3]

116. I see no way in which your statement makes sense in context.

Try again.

[rug]

119. Sorry, I can't teach shit to get up and walk.

[darkstar3]

122. You couldn't teach addition to a gifted student,

because you have no idea how to communicate, let alone defend, a single idea.

Pony up, rug. Show me ONE way in which you can defend your premise that celebrating Christmas as a non-Christian is irrational. You haven't done it yet anywhere on this thread. Show me that you can use that gray matter between your ears for something other than insults, derision, and one-liners. Make me believe that you're Smarter Than a 5th Grader.

Or, you can always STFU & GTFO.

[rug]

124. You confuse spittle with argument.

It's tedious.

[darkstar3]

126. Answer #41,

or admit that you're just fucking with people to smokescreen the fact that you have no answer.

[rug]

130. Admit you have no interest in real questions and answers

or STFU and . . . what was that . . . oh, yes . . . GTFO.

[darkstar3]

131. Stop being an ass and answer the question. n/t

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[darkstar3]

137. Still avoiding the question.

Support your argument, or fuck off. That's the way it works on a discussion board where the information is kept PUBLIC. You can't just take your ball and go home like you were so used to doing before. Support your bullshit, or STFU.

[rug]

141. Please read #140. Twice.

Thank you.

[darkstar3]

143. Please read #142.

Thanks for playing.

[rd_kent]

159. Then how do you get around?

[rd_kent]

158. What the fuck does that even mean? Can you ever even make a coherent, rational argument?

I didn't think so.

[Silent3]

133. The article made it pretty clear...

...that the Christianity isn't what's being celebrated by the atheist in question. Nothing is being observed but the fun and traditions of a having a solstice celebration, a winter feast like many, many human cultures have had throughout history, regardless of the particulars of religious belief.

Please, ask yourself if you really, honestly think you have a point before responding further, and aren't merely petulantly looking for a "gotcha!", and having to stretch the facts and exaggerate your interpretation to do so.

Will you be consistent and condemn everyone of either illogic or hypocrisy if they ever say "Thank God it's Friday!", for mixing thanks to a monotheistic deity for a day named in honor Freyja, a goddess from the Norse pantheon?

[rug]

139. It's clear from the article what that person believes he's doing.

However, it's clearly about Christmas, not a solstice or winter feast. Else, why title it Christmas without Christ?

What is illogical about it is that religion in general, and Christianity in particular, is frequently placed on a spectrum somewhere between benign delusion and malign murder. If one truly holds that belief, it is irrational, charitably, to participate in celebrations that overtly evoke one of the central tenets of that religion.

Obviously there is nothing wrong with a celebration in winter. But it should be called for what it is.

[darkstar3]

142. Wrong.

From the article:
"For most families, it's about tradition, not religion," he says. "And that's what allows people like myself to celebrate Christmas without the Jesus effect. Nobody goes to the mall to sit on Jesus' lap and visit with the 12 disciples."

Frankly, the name Christmas is only there because of tradition. We could call it whatever we like, and we would still celebrate the same things in the same way. Your hangup on the idea that the word "Christ" in Christmas somehow makes it irrational for people not of the faith to celebrate it is ridiculous. As someone else pointed out elsewhere in the thread, by your logic, Christians are irrational to celebrate Easter, since it is named after a pagan goddess.

ETA: I've just realized what all this venom, bullshit, and false argumentation has been about. You're determined to "put the Christ back in Christmas," so much so that it angers you when people use the word Christmas to mean anything other than a Jesus-centric celebration. Well guess what? Just like "holiday" doesn't mean "Holy Day" anymore, the WORD Christmas hasn't had anything to actually do with Christ for centuries. It has instead been used specifically to refer to a winter celebration involving feasting, presents, trees, and a fictitious jolly old fat guy with a snowy white beard, made up as a character to entertain the children. If you want to put the "Christ back in Christmas," then have all the fun you want. Hell, build your Christmas tree around a fucking crucifix for all I care, but leave the rest of us out of it, and don't presume to tell anyone else that they are irrational for following family traditions that go back for centuries. There's no difference whatsoever between an American atheist celebrating Christmas, and a non-observant Jew celebrating Hanukkah..

[Silent3]

145. A "Christmas", regardless of the root word "Christ"...

...clearly isn't about Christ or Christianity for a lot of people. Even a lot of so-called Christians are much more caught up in the gift giving and food and music (be it secular or religious) and decorations and visiting with family than they are really deeply focused on the birth of Christ.

Are you going to demand that consistency requires atheists to rename the holiday to something else? Move the date away from the same date plenty of others have celebrated plenty of other different holidays? Will you apply that same standard to the days of the week, mostly named after Norse gods, when referred to by people who don't believe in or worship those gods?

[rug]

146. Regardless of how individuals view the season, it remains based on a celebration of Christ's birth.

That is the objective reality.

I don't think viewing its present observance as a celebration of capitalism improves anything.

If religion is as wrong and as bad as portrayed, then yes, participating in Christmas celebrations is an oxymoron. Paying lip service to it only prolongs it. If there is to be a winter celebration, call it what it is and let those authentic traditions grow from there.

As to the days of week (as well as the months), changing the names was tried during the French Revolution. It didn't work.

[darkstar3]

147. False

The "objective reality" is that Christmas is NOT based on the birth of Christ, for many reasons, but chief among them in my mind at the moment is that if Christ even existed, he was born in Spring.

The celebration's date and observances were chosen specifically by the Christians of the early church in an attempt to co-opt the many pagan celebrations already taking place around the Winter Solstice.

Christmas on December 25th has nothing to do with Christ's actual birth, and everything to do with Christianity attempting to co-opt another festival for itself. Regardless of what we call it, this time of year has been festive since time immemorial, from the earliest celebrations of the Winter solstice and the various festivals surrounding it all the way up to Festivus.

At least they were smart enough to let Easter keep its name...

As to the days of the week, are you saying it isn't worth your time to try and change them from religious-based names? What makes their religious etymology less important than the religious etymology of the word Christmas?

[Silent3]

151. I don't believe you even believe what you're saying anymore.

Putting up a tree, giving presents, and drinking egg nog is "paying lip service" to Christianity? I'm not sure where the egg nog comes in (can't stand the stuff myself), but the rest goes back to pagan celebrations. Calling it Christmas, even when you don't believe in Christ, instead of "Winter Celebration" or "Darwin Day", is pretty much exactly the same thing as not bothering with trying to rename the days of the week in order to disown the Norse gods -- why bother?

Atheists (not to mention people of non-Christian religions, like many Japanese for example, or a not insignificant number of American Jews) are doing exactly what Christians have done before... co-opting already-existing celebrations and making them their own.

[rug]

152. Do you realize how tenuous your argument is?

Do you also hold that the Fourth of July is about hot dogs?

[Silent3]

153. It's about whatever you make it about for yourself

That's hardly "tenuous" at all, that's the cultural history of many holidays. How's your worship of Woden going today? Are you looking forward to making colored eggs next year to worship Ēostre?

For some people, Independence Day is just backyard barbecues and fireworks. If that's what it means to some people, there's not anything at all irrational about that. I suppose that might be annoying to chest-thumping über-Patriots, but there's no irrationality or hypocrisy in that, it's at worst apathy to the historical origin of the day.

Cinco de Mayo is catching on in this country as an excuse to drink Mexican beer. I couldn't remember the history of the day myself until I went here to look it up and reminded myself of a long-faded history lesson, and I imagine a lot of Americans who aren't of Mexican descent wouldn't have a clue.

What do you make of Japanese who are Shinto or Buddhist or completely non-religious who celebrate Christmas? How about American Jews who give their children Christmas presents? Think you've caught them at secretly worshiping Jesus or believing that Santa Claus is an actual deity?

The only thing that's tenuous is the thread you're hanging by in desperation to have the "gotcha!" you seem so badly to need to have. You'd never have even bothered starting your silly argument if you weren't so eager to find poo to fling at outspoken atheists.

[rug]

154. Well, you held yourself together until the last paragraph.

Holidays, by definition, are not "whatever you make it about for yourself". It is a communal activity, celebrated with common traditions and, usually, common beliefs. It is not the solitary cultural masturbation you suggest.

If you don't believe what the celebration is about, you're a hypocrite. If you believe the core belief of the celebration is harmful, you're irrational to celebrate it. If you believe it means shopping, you're an idiot. If you believe it means what you choose, shut your door, close your windows and party away. That does not change what it is.

As far as "flinging poo at outspoken atheists", don't flatter yourself. I take it your use of "outspoken" means you will not be silenced and oppressed by the deluded religionists. Ho-hum.

Being it's the eve of Christmas Eve, I think I'll leave this narrow, sad, petty thread and attend a bonfire, invoke Odin and solemnly process to Target's. You have convincingly persuaded me that is the true meaning of these days.

[darkstar3]

155. "Narrow, sad, and petty"

Three adjectives that describe exactly your attitude in every post on this thread.

Narrow, because even when shown the folly of your argument, you continue to repeat it, as if you were clinging to it like a straw in a tempest.
Sad, because you obviously have no idea what "by definition" means, and you completely ignore the true source of the "common traditions" you reference.
Petty, because again and again you turn to insults and dismissal when you can't defend your assertions.

Have a Merry Crossmas, and may the common spirit of celebration and charity at this festive time of year help end your crusade to annoy and deride everyone who doesn't think exactly like you do.

[Silent3]

160. How big does the "community" have to be? How uniform in behavior?

I still don't give you any credit for being honest about this discussion. To give you credit for that, I'd have to take away a lot of credit for even a mediocre degree of of flexible thinking. Perhaps I am mistaken and you really are as rigid as you seem about definitions of nebulous things like holidays. It's hard to imagine, however, that you're not applying selective ridiculous rigidity where you think you can score rhetorical points.

No one's denying what the word "Christmas" means, that it derives from the word "Christ" and is a celebration of the birth of Christ. But to say that's the "reason for the season" would be a gross oversimplification of the history of the holiday and it's traditions, especially the co-opting of pagan solstice traditions. People who pick and chose from among the many facets of the holiday to make it their own thing still have plenty of community to share the parts they choose with.

If you believe the core belief of the celebration is harmful, you're irrational to celebrate it.

If it were impossible to celebrate Christmas without turning that into an active act of promotion of Christianity, you might have a point. Clearly, however, it's easily possible to take what one wants to out of the holiday, enjoy the parts one likes in a communal fashion, and not do the slightest thing to further Christian beliefs.

My having a Christmas tree and giving gifts on Christmas does about as much to promote actual devotion to the tenets of Christian faith as showing up for the premier of a Lord of the Rings movie does to promote belief in an actual Middle Earth.

[msongs]

4. lol christiantity would wither and die without santa claus and the annual greed fest nt

[whathehell]

6. Funny...It survived for over a thousand years without "santa and the greedfest".

[Christa]

9. Only because of it's pagan origins

Christmas (Christ-Mass) as we know it today, most historians agree, began in Germany, though Catholics and Lutherans still disagree about which church celebrated it first. The earliest record of an evergreen being decorated in a Christian celebration was in 1521 in the Alsace region of Germany. A prominent Lutheran minister of the day cried blasphemy: “Better that they should look to the true tree of life, Christ.”

[onager]

10. The Romans mentioned ancient Germans "worshipping trees."

Or strictly speaking, worshipping deities who lived in trees, I guess.

As a sacrifice to those deities, the Germans were fond of nailing high-ranking prisoners of war to trees.

The Romans good a good close look at these rituals when they crossed the Rhine to pacify some cranky German insurgents. In 9 CE, three entire Roman legions were ambushed and slaughtered in the Teutoburg Forest.

The senior Roman military commanders and the governor, Publius Quinctilius Varus, committed suicide rather than be captured by the Germans. No doubt they were pondering that whole nailed-to-trees thing. Or another German religious ceremony, where prisoners were boiled alive and their bones used in religious rituals.

[eilen]

26. Are you referring to Tacitus? nt

[onager]

28. Tacitus wrote about the aftermatch.

In 14 CE, when the Roman army under Germanicus re-traced the path of Varus:

Near lay fragments of weapons and limbs of horses, and also human heads, prominently nailed to trunks of trees. In the adjacent groves were the barbarous altars, on which they had immolated tribunes and first-rank centurions.

Good brief write-up here:

http://www.livius.org/te-tg/teutoburg/tacitus.html

[whathehell]

15. "how we celebrate it today"...is not the issue.

Of course customs change over time.

The point is, it has been "celebrated" in some form AS a Christian, not pagan, holiday for over a thousand years.

[trotsky]

24. And it was celebrated as a pagan and/or non-Christian holiday for thousands of years prior.

Your point?

[whathehell]

33. If you want to know

my "point" you should go upthread and read the poster to whom I was actually replying.

[trotsky]

34. I'm glad you put "point" in quotation marks. n/t

[whathehell]

35. I can tell..

since you made a wholly gratuitous "point" of telling me!

[DeSwiss]

11. And here are a few other Xmas celebrants from Alabama......

- Merry holidays and a happy new set of downs...........

K&R

[Dorian Gray]

23. That mountain Dew tree

actually is pretty cool!

[onager]

27. Good taste really is timeless...

n/t

[Deep13]

13. Christmas was never religious holiday for me or my family.

The Santa Claus was a lesser deity for us as children, but as adults it was just a symbol for Xmas presents. The main attraction was giving and getting "prezzies" as my English wife puts it, visiting seldom seen relatives and stuffing our faces. I suppose that the first primitive people to realize that (in the north) the days start getting longer after what is now late December did pretty much the same thing.

[sakabatou]

14. I'm celebrating "Holiday"

[stopbush]

16. Sounds like our atheist household. Lots of Santa but no religious icons to be found

except for a few angels here and there - ornaments that have sentimental value as they were gifts from departed loved ones. We treat them like Halloween ghosts - non-existent but festive.

[Dorian Gray]

21. Great article

Christmas is such a family holiday that I can understand why many people who are non-believers celebrate it. The general spirit of Good Will and Charity surrounding the holiday is a wonderful spirit. I'm happy that Blair Scott and his family celebrate in their way.

[humblebum]

29. Umm... It's called Christmas for a reason. Atheists enjoy spinning

in anyway they can, but they shoulds also then refer to it as something other than CHRISTmas. However there certainly is nothing wrong with using the time to enjoy family and friends, but to try and say that it is something other than what it is is purely wrong. Noone is worshiping Santa Claus. Santa Claus or St. Nick is a character of early history noted for his giving of presents and the example of that character is what has become part of the celebration.

[tiny elvis]

32. if they don't call it krismis, bill o'reilly goes on a crusade

if they do call it christ mass, you criticize them
this indicates that jesusists are intolerant
religious absolutes allow for nothing but religiosity
so, the message from you and war on krissmissers combined is that nothing will do except to get right with jesus
but we already knew that, so a big bronx cheer to you all

[humblebum]

40. "religious absolutes allow for nothing but religiosity" and

atheist absolutes allow for nothing but atheistiosity.

[darkstar3]

46. Gesundheit! n/t

[whathehell]

49. Who gives a shit what Bill O'Reilly crusades about?

You've either got the wrong board, or you are, like a few others here, grasping at straws for something to whine about..Sorry, bro...No "War on 'krissmissers' here!

P.S. You might not like Christmas, but you do sound like you've imbibed a lot of Christmas "Cheer" tonite...Maybe you should go sleep it off.

[whathehell]

43. Yes..

You catch on quickly, don't you?...Atheists around here do tend to get grumpy around the holidays.

Even Thanksgiving seemed to piss them off, judging by some of the posts.

I didn't get that one..I just put it down to "All dressed up with No One to Thank", or something.

Welcome to DU.:hi:

[trotsky]

44. Yeah, it's easy to get really annoyed with obnoxious Christians...

who think their religion is the sole - or even original - reason for celebration.

[darkstar3]

45. Thank you...

Statements like the one above always make me wonder what the writer thinks about Jews, Hindus, and Muslims, among other people...

[whathehell]

47. Yeah....As it's easy to get annoyed with obnoxious atheists

who feel compelled to spin sour on anything THEY can't share or believe in.

Christmas has been celebrated as a Christian holiday for at least sixteen hundred years...That's historic reality, one that does NOT, by the way, suggest that religion is "the sole - or even orignal - reason for celebration".

I'm sure there were -- and still are -- pagan and cultural reasons to celebrate the winter season.

So if you want to go celebrate an alternative to Christmas, who is stopping you?

[trotsky]

48. Oh those terrible minority atheists and their posts on an obscure message board!

Good thing might makes right and CHRISTIANITY is the BEST! WOOHOO!!

[whathehell]

50. That big burst of self-pity would be funny if it weren't

so pathetic.

Why don't you go cry in a beer somewhere?..

"I mean..sniff..sniff..I'm an atheist and its..it's..Christmaaas...WAAAAAAA!"...I feel left out!...sniff..sniff "Might makes right"?!...Christmas is FORCED on Me..WAAAAAAA"!

Please grow up and stop embarrassing yourself:eyes:

[darkstar3]

52. Check yourself.

You have been acting the ass, and all trotsky did is call you out on it. He didn't say "Oh poor me, I'm so lonely on Christmas" or what-the-fuck-ever else you'd like to pull out of your ass.

Something tells me you've been trying to say to everyone you meet a pointed "Merry CHRISTMAS!!!!"

[trotsky]

55. Just like O'Reilly.

No wonder that poster bristled at the mention. S/he has a lot more in common with O'Reilly and the "War on Christmas" ilk than s/he thinks.

[darkstar3]

56. What I find really ironic

is how much this poster is bitching about atheists being nasty and lonely and whatever else during Christmastime, and yet the people getting nasty this time of year seem to be uniformly Christian, shouting about how it's their holiday and we should just leave it the fuck alone. I can't tell you how many times I've run into people arguing about saying "Merry Christmas." Hell, when I tell people "have a happy holiday" at work, I'm often greeted with a NASTY "Merry CHRISTMAS!!!!!"

[whathehell]

58. Forget "work" honey...I don't see a damn soul getting "nasty" about Christmas

On THIS Board except atheists.

Every non-atheist isn't responsible for what people do where YOU work!

[darkstar3]

60. Number 1, I ain't your honey.

I ain't your neighbor, I ain't your brother, I ain't your friend. I'm your total stranger, so don't pull that overly familiar shit with me.

Number 2, if you actually believe that Christians on this board aren't getting huffy at other people celebrating THEIR holiday after reading this and other threads in R/T, you are either blind, dishonest, or suffering from some massive denial.

[whathehell]

63. "overly familiar"?

Gee, I just thought it was patronizing!

If "Number 2" is true, dear..Talk to them...It's not been me.

[darkstar3]

65. Now I understand how you chose your username.

It must be because you constantly try to make people say it when you talk to them.
I'm bored with you now...:boring:

[whathehell]

67. More like stumped for an answer I'd say..

Nice try though!:rofl:

[iris27]

72. I'd call describing atheists at Thanksgiving as

"all dressed up and no one to thank" as pretty damned nasty. That's not about Christmas, but it gives a pretty clear idea of your overall opinion of atheists who dare to complain when Christians bitch at them for trying to celebrate national holidays in a secular manner.

[whathehell]

77. Really?...I'd call it funny.

Maybe you should get a sense of humor.

..After all, the atheists on this board make all sorts of "fun" about belief, with repeated references to "sky gods", etc. Seems you don't much like it when the shoe is on the other foot, do you?


In addition, I'd suggest you do NOT try to spin my posts as responses to an entirely separate issue...Anyone reading the thread will know it's crap.

As to that issue, I've yet to see anyone on this board "bitch" about how people celebrate or do Not celebrate Christmas...I don't nor does anyone else I know. If they make you angry, tell THEM. No one here is responsible for Christian Fox News watchers.

[trotsky]

80. So you can mock others, but they can't mock you?

There's a word for that.

[whathehell]

89. Uh..No..That's not what that says...Read it again...Slowly.

[darkstar3]

91. I would challenge your reading comprehension,

since obviously you have trouble understanding such things as context and implications, but the problem with doing that is you wrote those posts. Now I must either question your communication skills, or your sanity.

It is clear that you are mocking others while becoming defensive about being mocked yourself. To deny this makes you either dishonest, or blind.

[whathehell]

95. Um...No...You've got it backwards, either by accident or design

If it's the former, I question YOUR reading comprehension, if it's the latter, I question YOUR honesty,so let's try again:

It was the FIRST joke I've made, or for that matter, have even SEEN, about atheists here..and it came only AFTER seeing countless jibes and insults made by atheists at the expense of believers...Got that now?

If not, I'd suggest you read Rug's post upthread regarding "bias" and "comprehension".

Now you are beginning to bore ME, so I'll just say "adieu" in a permanent sort of way, if you get my drift..okay?:hi:

[darkstar3]

97. And to you.

Adieu. Sayonara. Good riddance.

[dmallind]

84. Difference beingYahweh actually originated AS a sky god. NT

[whathehell]

92. No shit......but that was HOW many thousands of years ago?

It's hard to make a point using images from Three thousand years ago...Not that some here don't try very hard.:eyes:

[Dorian Gray]

162. Some may do that, some may not....

but why must you make yourself look small minded and petty because you perceive others to do so?

[Dorian Gray]

161. I'd agree with this, as well....

it's really not a respectful way to engage.

[whathehell]

62. You check YOURSELF

For starters, you might actually read all the posts..You'd then have a reasonable chance of sounding as if your not pulling it all out of YOUR ass!

If that's too big a task..I'll give them to you: Posts 43,44 47 48.

Whatever is "telling" you about me is so off the mark it's funny...I'm not even a Christian..I'm an agnostic...Duuuuh!

[darkstar3]

64. Riiiiight...

I've read the whole thread quite thoroughly, and I think your opinion speaks for itself. As for your repeated claim of agnosticism...why...do I not believe you?

Oh, that's right, because an agnostic wouldn't have to keep claiming "I'm an agnostic" over and over again in a lame attempt to make their bullshit sound more credible to the people they wish to disparage.

[whathehell]

68. "Why ...do I not believe you"....Hmmm..Why don't I CARE if you believe me?

"because an agnostic wouldn't have to keep claiming "I'm an agnostic" over and over again in a lame attempt to make their bullshit sound more credible to the people they wish to disparage".

Uh..Maybe...or maybe because the people to whom she is speaking are so aggressive and arrogant that they do not LISTEN.

In any case, dear..I don't care what you think!

Buh-bye:hi:

[darkstar3]

70. Ah, there it is.

"I don't care what you think!"

The last refuge of those who cannot defend their position and wish to run away.

[whathehell]

73. Oh.....I thought you were "bored" with me?..

You're funny!

Because the fact is, I have no "position" to defend!..You and Trotsky are the ones with an "axe to grind"..I don't!

Happy Festivus:hi:

[trotsky]

54. CHRISTIANITY ROCKS!!!

OH YES, YOU ATHEISTS CAN JUST SUCK IT! HOO HA!

Enjoy your majority status! Feels great, doesn't it?

I just want to thank you for reminding me just how obnoxious, mean, intolerant, and in-your-face Christians can be.

[whathehell]

57. For the woefully immature

I'm glad that there is a "record" of posts here so that everyone can see that I neither said nor provoked the nonsense you are now spouting.

You made a false charge against me -- That I believed "religon was the sole -- or original -- reason for celebration".

I actually AGREED with you that Religion was NOT the sole -- or orininal -- reason for celebrating, saying that I'm sure there were and still are Pagan and Cultural holidays celebrating the Winter Season...I said, essentially that you were free to celebrate them..who was stopping you?

But I guess that was too rational and didn't play into your anger and self-pity, so you ignored that and came posted as response which implied that I said "Atheists are TERRRIBLE"..and "MIGHT Makes Right"...Since, instead of accepting the fact that I didn't want to "fight" with you, and posted a lot of garbage which misquoted me, I did, finally, strike back at your bullshit and anyone who wants to see for themselves, can just follow the posts.

P.S. My "majority status"?...Honey, I'm not a Christian..I'm an agnostic..I simply do not, as you do, begrudge other people their beliefs and/or holidays.

And I'm a "minority" myself..The kind that are REALLY oppressed.

[trotsky]

79. On the contrary, I'm just mocking what you ARE saying.

Basically that "Christmas" is a CHRISTIAN holiday and the rest of y'all can suck it. You can back off now, but as you said, there is a record of posts and I'll let others be the judge. I find humorous too, that your backing off includes claiming you're an agnostic. (Which isn't really a religious position in and of itself.)

[whathehell]

93. If you are speaking of origins, Christmas IS a Christian holiday..

Hello!?..The very NAME means "christ mass".

And who said that agnosticism was a religion?

But hey..I don't want to belabor your brain with clear thinking..It might send you into another Poutrage as it did earlier.

I'd suggest a logic course or something...In the meantime, welcome to my ignore list.

[trotsky]

94. Aw, can't take the heat.

And here I was going to challenge you to name one part of "Christmas" as it is celebrated today that is exclusively Christian in origin. Even the name comes up short - just like the holiday itself, "mass" was not an invention of the Christians but simply a co-opting of an existing term. At any rate, I think you realized just how weak your arguments were, since you turned more and more heavily to insults and attacks as the thread went on.

I'll miss you. :*

[darkstar3]

96. Suuure, you'll miss him.

Like a hole in the head...:)

+1, BTW.

[iris27]

111. By that def, Easter is a pagan fertility holiday.

Hello!?...The very NAME refers to a goddess of fertility worshipped with rampant boinking in the early spring.

[whathehell]

66. Gawd...How old are you

Ten?

And you can keep stompin' your feet about those "meanie intolerant christians"..I mean when you stop crying, anyway...'Cause guess what, genius?...I'm NOT a Christian...But, unlike yourself, I'm not INSECURE about it.

Now, as the saying goes, I refuse to have a battle of wits with unarmed opponents, so..buh-by:hi:

[trotsky]

81. And how old are you?

Can't defend your posts, so you fling an insult and flip a smiley?

[darkstar3]

51. "Christmas has been celebrated as a Christian holiday for at least sixteen hundred years."

You MIGHT want to learn a little more about the origins of our current Christmas celebrations. Maybe then you'd know that most Christians until nearly the 19th century refused to celebrate Christmas and even banned celebrations by Christians around December the 25th in an attempt to quash pagan celebrations. Christmas in its current form didn't take hold until the late 1800s, after Germans managed to introduce Christmas trees to a majority of US citizens.

Hell, Dickens wrote A Christmas Carol partly because, at the time, the royal family was selling Christmas to the masses and essentially creating the holiday as it is celebrated in modern England.

Christmas has most definitely NOT been "celebrated" for at least 1600 years.

[DeSwiss]

76. Yeah but obnoxious religionists....

....take the cake. They're so much better at being sickeningly obnoxious than anyone. They've learned from the best! Whathehell indeed. More like Whathef*ck.

:hi: Life is short, welcome to IGNORE.

[whathehell]

99. Obnoxious religionists "better at being obnoxious"?..THAT is a matter of great dispute!

Life IS short, DeSwiss..but I doubt that is related to what is most likely your lack the cerebral fortitude!

Oh well...Cop outs are preferable to "poutrages"!:hi:

[darkstar3]

107. You should be careful

attacking the "cerebral fortitude" of others. They might decide to eviscerate your poor grammar and argumentation skills.

You really should have listened to President Lincoln and stayed silent. Now everyone can confirm just how foolish you really are.

[iris27]

59. I'm quite content to call my secular winter solstice holiday CHRISTmas as long as the Christians

continue to call their celebration of their savior's resurrection "Easter", after a Norse fertility goddess!

[dmallind]

83. Yes it is - and that reason is Christian majoritarianism

and its influence on language. It's been called many other things in many other places long before ideas of Christ were congealed out of various mystery cults, and doubtless will be called many oother names long after Christianity is as relevant to a future society as Saturnalia is to us now.

Calling something by a different name does not change its origins (length of daylight in most populous areas of the northern hemisphere) nor its history (one of hundreds of different clebrations assigned to hundreds of different gods and noen at all).

[eShirl]

87. OK then.. Yuletide.

(I notice the Church didn't bother to change the name of Easter, for whatever reason.)

[brendan120678]

30. We never really had "Santa" growing up...

or the Easter Bunny, for that matter. Sure, we decorated the tree, and had a couple of "modern" Christmas decorations up and about. But my mother's antique Creche always was the more important symbol in our family. We still gave and got presents, and some were labeled as from Santa, but we were never raised to believe that there was actually someone who lived in the North Pole and flew a sleigh driven by reindeer.

We were raised on the true meaning of Christmas. And even then, Christmas certainly wasn't the most important religious holiday - that was Easter.

[Angry Dragon]

31. The birth of Jesus

was not celebrated until the the third or fourth century. At that time they decided on a date and up to that time it was not an important "christian" holiday. The resurrection was more important.

[whathehell]

42. Not until the third or fourth century"?..Wow..So that makes it a mere 1700 years old!

..at best!

a real "New Kid on the Block" :rofl:

[iris27]

61. see post 51 n/t

[eShirl]

88. Yes, a new veneer laid upon the old, much of which still survives.

[whathehell]

71. I'm happy for you..!

[trotsky]

86. Uh, hold on a sec...

In post #43, you are nodding in approval with a post mocking atheists for even *using* the term Christmas, even throwing in a bit of abuse yourself.

Now you say that you're happy for them?

whathehell indeed. :crazy:

[cynatnite]

115. Shit, this atheist celebrates Christmas without the christ part every year...

Tree, presents, family, food, and so on. We have fun.

If people want the religious part of it...go for it. My mother and the rest of the family does that. We do it differently and yet we can somehow have a great time as a family without letting these petty arguments destroying our happiness.

It is petty, IMO, because what counts is the here and now and the family you're with. Nothing lasts forever so make the most of what's now.