English Priest Says Shoplifting Okay At Times

[DeSwiss]

Tim Jones, English Priest, Says Shoplifting Okay At Times

Huffington Post | GREGORY KATZ | 12/22/09 02:41 PM | AP



LONDON — For a priest in northern England, the commandment that dictates "thou shalt not steal" isn't exactly written in stone. The Rev. Tim Jones caused an uproar by telling his congregation that it is sometimes acceptable for desperate people to shoplift – as long as they do it at large national chain stores, rather than small, family businesses.

Jones' Robin Hood-like sermon drew rebukes Tuesday from fellow clergy, shop owners and police. From his pulpit at the Church of St. Lawrence in York, about 220 miles (355 kilometers) north of London, Jones said in his sermon Sunday that shoplifting can be justified if a person in real need is not greedy and does not take more than he or she really needs to get by.

The remarks drew a summons from Archdeacon Richard Seed, who said on his Web site that the church rejects the view that shoplifting can be acceptable. "The Church of England does not advise anyone to shoplift, or break the law in any way," he said.

"Father Tim Jones is raising important issues about the difficulties people face when benefits are not forthcoming, but shoplifting is not the way to overcome these difficulties. There are many organizations and charities working with people in need, and the Citizens' Advice Bureau is a good first place to call," Seed's statement said. Eleanor Course, a spokeswoman for Seed, said the archdeacon wants to meet with Jones to discuss the "appropriateness" of his sermon.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/22/tim-jones-english-priest-_n_400832.html">MORE

- He's not supposed to be giving out the answers from the teacher's book, is he???
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DeSwiss


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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent,
persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." ~ John F. Kennedy

[provis99]

1. finally, a priest with morality

sounds like most of his colleagues would have condemned Jean val Jean to life in prison. Fuck religion.

[DeSwiss]

8. Sorry.

I would have responded sooner but seeing the phrase "priest with morality" in your post, had me momentarily stunned.

- And speechless.....

[Jim__]

2. Good for him! - n/t

[DeSwiss]

9. ....

[Bolo Boffin]

3. I wonder what his Scripture reading for the day was...

If you enter your neighbor's vineyard, you may eat all the grapes you want, but do not put any in your basket. If you enter your neighbor's grainfield, you may pick kernels with your hands, but you must not put a sickle to his standing grain. - Deuteronomy 23:24-25

[Igel]

7. So?

That's not stealing.

Putting a scythe in, that would involve stealing more than snacking.

More appropriate claim: David stole the shewbread on the altar when he was starving. It wasn't imputed to him as sin, because life is more important than some things. It's a low bar, granted, but there it is.

Counter: However, that's bread given to God, and sin is what God calls violating what's due him or what he mandates. If somebody steals my bread, then it's theft and between me and him, with God as a bystander.

Reply: True, but mercy rejoiceth against judgment, and while that's a NT phrase the idea is widespread in the OT, as well. The thief may have wronged you, but there's a requirement upon you to be merciful. How is, in part, up to you, but the mercy you show is the mercy you'll receive. This is above and beyond the command to help the poor.

However, the minister is still wrong even in that exchange, for theft is still wrong--and it was written in stone. The punishment, however, is not written in stone. Keeping one's morality rather well outlined puts a constraint on what theft you're likely to be absolved of, so it's best to pick your mark wisely and when only really in need, not just in greed--after all, $100 in theft per week by 20 different people might make the difference between that shopkeeper's staying open or a manager keeping his job. However, in the OT it's not up to the judge--the judge is be unbiased, having no greater empathy for the poor than for the rich. He is to judge justly and fairly, impartially. What cases get brought before him, however, is another matter.

[DeSwiss]

10. You hardly ever see....

...one's neighbors with vineyards and grainfields anymore. But you're saying entering into Sam's or Costco's is the same thing?

- Neat! I'll be sure to take a copy of this with me to the store to show security when they bust me.

[hermaphroditos]

4. This idea is actually rooted in Catholic theology.

Kudos nonetheless.

[DeSwiss]

11. Rooted in Catholic theology?

Where the word "rooted" means way, way deep down in the dirt so far as to reach the point of total obscurity and meaninglessness?

- Now that I can see......

[meow2u3]

5. New Seventh Commandment: Thou Shalt Steal

My priest said it was OK to steal from the grocery store, Your Honor. :sarcasm:

[DeSwiss]

12. ....

Miscreant Thief: My priest said it was OK to steal from the grocery store, Your Honor.

Judge: Which might have carried a little more weight sir, if you hadn't decided to wear the Satanist's costume to court today.

:rofl:

[dmallind]

6. This is a tempest in a teacup and basic utilitarianism

No matter how much anybopdy claims to follow deontological morality, religious or otherwise, absolutely no-one does, and if pressed on hypotheticals nobody even pretends it's a good idea. Do you lie to the secret police looking for undesirables when you know where they are? Should you tell the truth? There is always a hierarchy of imperatives, and that essentially devolves into act-rule utilitarianism, a superior system in both theory and practice. You don't lie under oath unless to tell the truth would cause great harm to innocents. You don't steal until it would be seriously harmful or fatal not to. All the clergyman is saying is how morality actually works, even religious morality once you get past the thoughtless absolutists who have not as yet adequately reflected on the untenable nature of absolutes.

Hands up anyone, however religious or otherwise guided by moral absolutes, who would not steal if it were the only way to feed their starving child? Such a scenario is not all that impossible even in developed nations like ours, and is positively routine in some places. If your hand is up you are either a liar or a monster. If it is down you practice situational ethics. Deal with it. This priest obviously has.

[DeSwiss]

13. Tempest in teacups I suppose is the best we can expect during these meager recessionary times.

And while the idea of a form of "conditional truth" has always existed, I would agree that the Catholics not only utilize it, but they've raised its use to an art form. In fact, it's so pervasive with them now, one could say that the relativism is all they stand for.


- Well, that and archaic Middle Age thinking, red Prada shoes, sexism, dogmatism and the maniacal/insane desire to have power over all people's lives at any cost.....