Turns out Mormons might not be Christians after all...

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

Harry Reid, in appealing for civility and cooperation on the Senate floor, said that those of the Christan faith should act in the spirit of Christmas, their faith's most important holiday.

Well, maybe to those of the Christan faith who own toy stores...

It's a weird thing to say. I am not really cracking on Reid for being a Mormon because a lot of people say stupid things regardless of their faith and he hasn't had much sleep...

But the most important holiday of the Christian faith is Easter and there is no close second.

[MuseRider]

1. The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints not Christian?

Guess again. Not defending them here, they are indefensible. I used to be one so I would be the last to stick up for them but they are Christian They certainly often do not act like it.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

4. A lot of Protestants say Mormons are not Christians

Which was a problem for Mitt Romney.

So I was using that as a joke introduction to a comment.

(I doubt Catholics worry about whether Mormons are Christians since they are obviously not Catholics, which is all that need be said.)

[MuseRider]

5. You never really know sometimes what was a joke or not.

Again, I would never defend them. I know how crazy people think you are if you are LDS. Personally I can't go there ever again, they have odd beliefs that blow my mind but they are Christians, at least to people who are just like them and a selected few who "can pass". Ewwwwwww, I just got the shakes.

[MUAD_DIB]

8. ALL PEOPLES OF THE PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS ARE HERETICS!

There is only The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost!

:evilgrin:


Merry Xmas

:hi:

[MuseRider]

9. Merry Xmas

back at you. :hi:

[damntexdem]

28. My favorite denomination is the $20 bill.

Yours?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

31. And that, Sir, is why you are poor.

I'll take the Benjamins, thank you.

:hi:

[DuckyCase]

49. I always thought the RR's attitude on Mitt was funny because...

The LDS, or at least some affiliated institutions like the Boy Scouts, came out of the oppression closet a little too early and found that some of the people they thought were fellow travelers in intolerance weren't tolerant of them. It is, however, quite a shame that they didn't learn anything from that.

[Tutankhamun]

13. They act exactly like the Christians I've known -- they're evil, petty bastards.

[vaberella]

16. Raised Catholic here and we never really considered them Christian.

They have their own distinct bible and such. Most Christian faiths still use the renditions or copy of King James----basically old and new testament---with a focus on New Testament teaching versus old which you can find in most Protestant and, of course, the Catholic faith.

[MuseRider]

20. So do the Mormons

but they have added their own books. They do use the same bible as other Christian religions.

I am out of here, I do not want to defend them and really, I don't much care what others think but that is incorrect. They use 3 books (that I can remember) and one of them is the King James bible (if I remember correctly, it might be a different bible). It has been a long while and I try to forget about it. But it is not different, maybe sometimes added to but basically the same bible with the same stories. If I am wrong I hope someone corrects me about use of the bible with or without additions. I just remember carrying 3 books and one was the bible. :)

[vaberella]

38. True and false.

They follow the New Testament not the Old Testament. Majority of Christian religions follow both. That's commonly known considering the reason we find bibles in motel and hotel rooms is because of the Mormons. However, they are always New Testament. They have their own distinct bible and prophet. That Bible is what they pass around when ever they calling for recruits. Why? Because I was on of their recruits and hence the reason I had the bible. I did that mainly to find out about the Religion not to convert. I got totally turned off when I read what they thought of Blacks in the Mormon bible.

[MuseRider]

42. The Book Of Mormon

and then there is another....something about Pearls? I don't even want to look it up. I got a Christmas Card from them just today. They never give up, it has been years and years since I was a member.

[lazarus]

48. Pearl of Great Price

and their third volume, the Doctrine and Covenants. Has as many contradictions as the original Bible.

[Xipe Totec]

2. No, Christmas is the most important holiday

It's a testicle of fate or something.


I'm sure I read it in the Bible somewhere.

[Exultant Democracy]

14. Wrong, Christmas is the left testicle of fate while easter is the grundle of piety

[damntexdem]

29. Easily settled: which holiday inspires more shopping?

Let's face it: Xmas moves many, many more Almighty Dollars than does Easter.

Case closed! ;-)

[Orsino]

41. Easily Settled II: which holiday do wingnuts have to invent wars on?

As much doctrinal import as Easter has, Christmas will always be the one more loudly defended.

[Xipe Totec]

44. I'm Dreaming of a White Sale Christmas! n/t

[ShortnFiery]

40. I'm underwhelmed by your insightful analysis n/t

[Xipe Totec]

43. And a parrot in a pear tree...

PS: I'm flattered by your imitation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=84737&mesg_id=84777

[Democrats_win]

3. "We are all NOT Christains now."

It's not just the Mormons, it's all of these so-called "christain" religions. They all have such serious problems that I doubt Jesus would join them.

[CBGLuthier]

6. They are a splinter cult, their teachings are way too different from christianity

Nothing personal against them but they are not christians just as scientoloigists are not scientists.

[brendan120678]

7. Most Catholics, like myself, believe that Easter...

is the most important holiday in our faith.

[lynne]

37. I'm Methodist and we agree. EASTER is - by far - the most important holiday.

Without Easter there would be no reason to celebrate Christmas.

[mwb970]

10. Of course they are not Christians.

Read their doctrines; many are explicitly sacrilegious by Christian standards. If anything, they are the anti-Christians.

[QC]

11. Christians do not believe in millions of Gods, do not believe that God was once a man,

do not believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers, do not believe that God lives on a planet near Kolob, etc.

Mormons are not Christians, at least if we use the Nicene Creed as a definition.

[vaberella]

18. True...and that's why I consider most Chrisitians to be Catholics in denial.

Mormons..are something completely different.

[Retrograde]

24. You beat me to it

The Nicene Creed defines what it means to be a Christian (at least since the 300s) and the whole "as man is now god was once, as god is now so man will become" sorta contradicts "one god, creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible". Mormonism was heavily influenced by Christianity, among other things, but by strict Nicene standards it's heretical.

Christmas is an important holy day (and a good time for a party) but Easter is the basis for the religion, with the whole ritual sacrifice to redeem mankind and the triumphal resurrection. It just hasn't gotten the Hallmark coverage the December holiday has.

Do Mormons observe Joseph Smith's birthday? I recently read a book by a former member of a polygamous group that said the prophet's birthday was celebrated but it wasn't clear if she was referring to Smith or the current self-proclaimed prophet.

[Igel]

51. I'll quibble.

We believe ". . . one Lord Jesus Christ, very God of very God, begotten . . . Who was made man. . . ."

Now, it's a minor inference that if he is very God, but was man, that he is man become God, God who was once man. The Father wasn't, but Jesus? That's put strangely, but it's hard to get around that inference. Otherwise we lapse into Docetism--Jesus wasn't really man, with it entailed that he wasn't really crucified.

As for the rest of it, you can quibble: That Jesus is the firstborn of many brothers/sisters, and that as he wrote in an incorruptible body so shall those who follow him in the resurrection.

It's not standard doctrine, to be sure.

Oh, and I'm not Mormon. Not in the least, although in the interest of full disclosure I did know one once (that I know of).

[Robeson]

12. I'm sorry, but getting MP3 players, LCD TV's, and envelopes full of money....

...trumps candied Easter Eggs any day...:P

[yellowcanine]

15. Christmas wasn't an important Christian holiday until Constantine established it as such in an

effort to lure pagans away from winter solstice celebrations.

[vaberella]

17. Yup yup...hence the reason most of our major holidays fall in line with pagan celebrations.

I believe Easter is another one for the Spring Solstice....and on and on it goes.

[safeinOhio]

21. That'd be Spring equinox

Our UU group had a great Winter Solstice celebration last night.

[vaberella]

39. Thanks, that's correct. n/t

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

36. Though piggy-backing on an earlier Jewish holiday

If Passover is a Spring celebration then that's what it is. Makes sense.

But Easter is defined, calender-wise, in terms of Passover... that's why it's always a different date each year. The last supper was a passover feast so we use the first Sunday after passover as Easter.

An Passover is determined in some way having to do with the phases of the moon.

IIRC.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

26. Mithras was born on December 25

And his birth was even observed by amazed Shepherds.

The Mithras cult was very popular in the military which made its co-option pretty important.

[Dappleganger]

19. Aren't most Mormons repukes?

I'm convinced Reid is a mole planted by them to destroy the democrats little by little.

[kirby]

22. Nice misquote...

He said "For those who are of the Christian faith, WE should act in the spirit of Christmas".

Unlike some repukes, he was trying to be respectful to those of other beliefs who were listening.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

25. I was paraphrasing from TV but the key part commented on is correct

I wasn't focusing in whether he included himself or not and it would be at least as appropriate if he didn't. No controversy there either way.

The OP is a somewhat comically framed observation about the secondary importance of Christmas in theological terms, though in commercial terms it is THE holiday.

It does appear that Christmas is the be-all and end-all of Christian holidays because it is the biggest show.

[grantcart]

23. roughly 1800 years ago two great schools of thought about interpreting

Jesus, the one that is called The Christ, evolved. Simply stated they involved followers of the teaching of Paul and Agnostics.


Followers of the larger party had a number of councils that defined their core beliefs and people following those beliefs accepted the creeds as confessional documents. Agnostics and others outside of the creeds do not accept the basic teachings of the Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant traditions.


Mormons reject these creeds, especially the Nicene Creed, specifically rejecting the Trinity and postulating that there are three seperate Gods.


For this reasons Mormons cannot be considered Christians (if the word is to have any meaning) but can call themselves followers of Christ.

[LiberalAndProud]

27. Okay, this is funny.

I was always taught that Christian literally meant follower of Christ. If you were to ask me for a definition, that would be it.

I do appreciate your grasp of the historical foundation of the dogma, but I am certainly in a quandry over semantics here.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

30. Surely Christianity must have some tenets...

For instance, a number of signers of our Constitution admired the heck out of Jesus but didn't believe he actually rose from the dead.

They considered themselves Christian in the sense of being of the Christan world (as opposed to, say, the Islamic world) but can anyone who rejects the central tenet of the faith--the resurrection--be called a Christian in any religious sense?

To me (and perhaps to you) this stuff has little meaning because I am not religious.

But if I was religious then it would probably matter to me what particular articles of faith someone subscribes to in figuring out what to call them.

[grantcart]

32. No its logical - Charles Manson could say that he is a follower of Christ

There was a big fight and they wrote down what they believed.




Many people try to follow the ethical teaching of Christ but believe in neither the virgin birth or the Ressurection.


Albert Schweitzer spent decades as a doctor in Africa because he was challenged by the story of Christ but could no longer accept the ancient creeds.


If instead of believing that there is one God but believe that there are lots of gods and the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are in fact three different beings simply working on a united game plan then that puts you pretty far out of Christian doctrine by any standard.


Ironically most of the famous founding fathers did not accept the creeds and would be classified as Deists rather than Christans.

[Sebastian Doyle]

33. Actually Charles Manson said he WAS Christ

and a small group of zombies who had eaten way too much acid actually believed him.

David Koresh also said he was Christ. Even though he wore coke bottle glasses, and one would assume the Son of God could heal his own eyes.

[ima_sinnic]

35. I always thought of Jesus as the David Koresh of his time

I'm sure Jesus and his followers, if they even existed, would have been regarded as "those weird hippies who love each other" back then.

[LiberalAndProud]

34. I didn't mean funny -- haha, more like funny as in ironic.

I bumped my nose on the "followers of Christ" phrase.

It amuses me to see how folks who call themselves Christian tend to want to exclude other folks who also call themselves Christian from their Kingdom of Heaven. For example, my Baptist counterparts were quick to tell me that MY (United Methodist) church wasn't Christian, and I wasn't saved, because the pastor (my dad) believed in dinosaurs. My dad also doesn't have much use for the doctrine of substitutional sacrifice. So even perhaps by your definition he is not a Christian. And yet still he spent his life in the service of the Christ he worships.

As for me, organized religion, regardless of diety or denomination ... you can have 'em. I don't want 'em.

[DuaneBidoux]

45. Definitely NOT! (as least according to my Southern Baptist family).

[ProgressOnTheMove]

46. All Reid was getting at is this is usually a generous time of year and whether in the faith or not..

that generosity and kindness is important to people. Whether it be factually the most important Christian holiday or not. He was mostly saying how can anyone be a Scrooge at Christmas.

[stevenleser]

47. IBTL. Totally unnecessary backhanded comment about Mormons.

Politicians can generally be assailed quite well without resorting to odd comments about religion, race, etc...

[sakabatou]

50. Ach, Kurt, do ye know a TRUE Scotsman?