Christian Story of Jesus's Birth Is a Myth Born of Politics

[StarfarerBill]

By Rev. Howard Bess, Consortium News

"The Advent season is a fun time. For many Christians, it is the happiest season of the year. The joy comes from the anticipation: "Joy to the world, the Lord has come. Let earth receive her king."

"I do not desire to dim the lights of Christmas, but it might be helpful to some to hear what the stories of Jesus birth are really about.

"There are four versions of the life of Jesus. We call them the Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Only two of the versions say anything about the birth of Jesus.

"Mark, the first of the Gospels, begins the Jesus story with Jesus as an adult. John, the last Gospel written, likewise says nothing about the birth of Jesus. Matthew tells the birth story in only a few short paragraphs. Luke's version of the beginnings of Jesus is four times as long as that of Matthew.

"Those two versions are very different. Luke plays with a much larger cast. His flair for the dramatic is pronounced. He includes an abundance of poetry and music with the support of angelic hosts.

"Reconciling the two versions has been tried by many, but never with success. They are two different stories. They each have their own distinctive version of the events that surrounded the birth of Jesus."

http://www.alternet.org/belief/144510/christian_story_of_jesus%27s_birth_is_a_myth_born_of_politics

[HopeHoops]

1. Jesus was actually born in a Motel 6 with the "M" burned out on the neon sign.

That's not widely known.

[peekaloo]

2. Curious that they ignore the fifth gospel

John The Prine

(spoken)
Jesus.... the missing years

It was raining. it was cold
West bethlehem was no place for a twelve year old
So he packed his bags and he headed out
To find out what the world's about
He went to france. he went to spain
He found love. he found pain.
He found stores so he started to shop
But he had no money so he got in trouble with a cop
Kids in trouble with the cops
From israel didn't have no home
So he cut his hair and moved to rome
It was there he met his irish bride
And they rented a flat on the lower east side of rome...
Italy that is
Music publishers, book binders, Bible belters, money changers,
Spoon benders and lots of pretty italian chicks.

Chorus:
Charley bought some popcorn
Billy bought a car
Someone almost bought the farm
But they didn't go that far
Things shut down at midnight
At least around here they do
Cause we all reside down the block
Inside at ....23 skidoo.

Wine was flowing so were beers
So jesus found his missing years
So he went to a dance and said "this don't move me"
He hiked up his pants and he went to a movie
On his thirteenth birthday he saw "rebel without a cause"
He went straight on home and invented santa claus
Who gave him a gift and he responded in kind
He gave the gift of love and went out of his mind
You see him and the wife wasn't getting along
So he took out his guitar and he wrote a song
Called "the dove of love fell off the perch"
But he couldn't get divorced in the catholic church
At least not back then anyhow
Jesus was a good guy he didn't need this shit
So he took a pill with a bag of peanuts and
A coca-cola and he swallowed it.
He discovered the beatles
And he recorded with the stones
Once he even opened up a three-way package
In southern california for old george jones

Repeat chorus:

The years went by like sweet little days
With babies crying pork chops and beaujolais
When he woke up he was seventeen
The world was angry. the world was mean.
Why the man down the street and the kid on the stoop
All agreed that life stank. all the world smelled like poop
Baby poop that is ..the worst kind
So he grew his hair long and thew away his comb
And headed back to jerusalem to find mom, dad and home
But when he got there the cupboard was bare
Except for an old black man with a fishing rod
He said "whatcha gonna be when you grow up? "
Jesus said "god"
Oh my god, what have I gotten myself into?
I'm a human corkscrew and all my wine is blood
They're gonna kill me mama. they don't like me bud.
So jesus went to heaven and he went there awful quick
All them people killed him and he wasn't even sick
So come and gather around me my contemporary peers
And I'll tell you all the story of
Jesus...the missing years

Repeat chorus:

We all reside down the block
Inside at ....23 skidoo.

[Buzz Clik]

3. At DU, we get to learn that Christmas is a lie. The knuckledraggers tell us Kwanzaa is fake.

'Tis the season. Year after year after year.

:eyes:

As for me, I like Christmas. Lots of people do. We're not idiots, naive, or dupes. Just sayin'.

[Dogtown]

12. Yes, the DU Anti-Christmas Strike Force

will suppress you if we can...

:eyes:

[The Straight Story]

22. Post an op about kwanzaa being fake for comparison's sake :) (nt)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. I don't think anybody actually argued that Christmas isn't a holiday.

[ZombieHorde]

45. I don't know what "Kwanzaa is fake" means, I know what all of the words mean, but how can a

holiday be fake?

we get to learn that Christmas is a lie

I must of missed this thread, but it sounds good, I will have to look for it. How can a holiday be a lie?

We're not idiots, naive, or dupes.

Some people who like Christmas seem to be idiots, naive, and/or dupes.

[tularetom]

4. I suspect it's mostly BS but I like Christmas anyway

[Cleita]

20. I like the pagan aspect of it, the decorated trees, wreaths, yule logs

baked goodies and the egg nog punch. Exchanging presents is good too and the mythological Santa for the kids as well.

[fascisthunter]

5. It's Mainly Myth

like most religions that have ever existed, the truth is disguised by the fantastic to lure others in. Everyone wants to believe so, they made the man more palpable for their wishes.

[hunter]

6. It's Spring, the lambs are born, a time of intense political turmoil...

The local warlord is a bloodthirsty maniac who thinks any problem can be solved by killing or maiming someone, and the land is occupied by a foreign power.

Your strange middle aged brother Joe, the furniture and farm implement maker, shows up on your doorstep with his very young and very pregnant bride, a girl the local shepherds say was born under very supernatural and mysterious circumstances. She immediately has a baby (not Joe's baby, tongues will wag!!!) in your front room. Fortunately some of your relatives and in-laws know about birthing babies.

The superstitious shepherds, members of some freak cult or another, think the baby is something special and keep clamoring to see him and his mom so you arrange for an appearance out back in one of your mangers.

Merry Christmas.

[phasma ex machina]

7. I'm bored, I'll play.

Broadly speaking the authors were storytellers. They were not historians. Their work cannot be understood as history.

Is our Reverend also skeptical of ancient historians? At least 19 pagan historians refer to Jesus Christ as a real life historical person.

[Solomon]

8. LOL Boy you are clutching some straws there.

LOL You'll drown for sure with that lot of straws.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. None of whom were contemporary.

[phasma ex machina]

15. So your skepticism of Tacitus comes from him not being contemporary? nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. That, and he presents no evidence.

There was a cult of Christianity by the time Tacitus came around. Tacitus merely reported what these early Christians believed.

He is no more an authority on whether or not Christ existed than anybody else.

[phasma ex machina]

21. So you doubt Tacitus' account of Pontius Pilate putting Christ to death.

Do you doubt all ancient history?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. Yes, of course. Why wouldn't I?

Do you accept, face value, Geoffrey of Monmouth's account of King Arthur? How about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's account of Sherlock Holmes? Errol Flynn's account of Robin Hood?

"Do you doubt all ancient history?"

Not at all. Much of ancient history has evidence, and contemporaneous accounts.

[phasma ex machina]

30. Apparently you accept Tacitus as historian except for his words pertaining to Christianity.

For that one exclusive case you have Tacitus joining Monmouth, Doyle, and Errol Flynn in waxing poetic.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. Pretty much.

But you act as if there's something wrong with that.

If you've got another example of one of Tacitus's claims come solely from fifth-hands accounts of non-contemporary cultists, I'd be happy to be suspicious of that as well.

[Ignis]

25. B-b-but that would imply it was a cult worshipping Nothing.

And that never, ever happens.

[trotsky]

32. Never!

[StarfarerBill]

10. This article refers to the stories of Jesus's supposedly miraculous birth, not to his existence.

[phasma ex machina]

24. Our Reverend confuses me when he conflates drama with history.

Reverend seems to feel that an ancient scientist, the physician named Luke, wrote epic myth.

[S_E_Fudd]

23. Unless I am missing something...

He is only disputing the accounts of Jesus' birth...not his existence...

[sakabatou]

27. .

[phasma ex machina]

31. google "Christ Tacitus Pontius Pilate" for starters. nt

[trotsky]

35. Hey, here's a hit.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.shtml

The next major ancient historian who supposedly mentions Jesus, and thus provides us with evidence that he was an historical character is Tacitus. Cornelius Tacitus wrote his Annals after 117 A.D. Their exact date of composition is not know, but we do know that it was at least 70 years after Jesus' supposed crucifixion. Jesus is not mentioned by name anywhere in the extant works of Tacitus. There is one mention of "Christus" in Book XV, Chapter 44, as follows:

"Nero looked around for a scapegoat, and inflicted the most fiendish tortures on a group of persons already hated by the people for their crimes. This was the sect known as Christians. Their founder, one Christus, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. This checked the abominable superstition for a while, but it broke out again and spread, not merely through Judea, where it originated, but even to Rome itself, the great reservoir and collecting ground for every kind of depravity and filth. Those who confessed to being Christians were at once arrested, but on their testimony a great crowd of people were convicted, not so much on the charge of arson, but of hatred of the entire human race." (D.R. Dudley's translation)

While we know from the way in which the above is written that Tacitus did not claim to have firsthand knowledge of the origins of Christianity, we can see that he is repeating a story which was then commonly believed, namely that the founder of Christianity, one Christus, had been put to death under Tiberius. There are a number of serious difficulties which must be answered before this passage can be accepted as genuine. There is no other historical proof that Nero persecuted the Christians at all. There certainly were not multitudes of Christians in Rome at that date (circa 60 A.D.). In fact, the term "Christian" was not in common use in the first century. We know Nero was indifferent to various religions in his city, and, since he almost definitely did not start the fire in Rome, he did not need any group to be his scapegoat. Tacitus does not use the name Jesus, and writes as if the reader would know the name Pontius Pilate, two things which show that Tacitus was not working from official records or writing for non-Christian audiences, both of which we would expect him to have done if the passage were genuine.

Perhaps most damning to the authenticity of this passage is the fact that it is present almost word-for-word in the Chronicle of Sulpicius Severus (died in 403 A.D.), where it is mixed in with obviously false tales. At the same time, it is highly unlikely that Sulpicius could have copied this passage from Tacitus, as none of his contemporaries mention the passage. This means that it was probably not in the Tacitus manuscripts at that date. It is much more likely, then, that copyists working in the Dark Ages from the only existing manuscript of the Chronicle, simply copied the passage from Sulpicius into the manuscript of Tacitus which they were reproducing.

Yeah, so if your faith is dependent upon some kind of hard evidence that this Jesus dude *really* existed, you're going to be disappointed. Better just let faith be faith and acknowledge that you will never have proof.

[sakabatou]

36. But you still gotta have faith, right?

:eyes:

[phasma ex machina]

37. Let's leave Tacitus, for the time being, and move on to Celsus.

Why does rabid Christian hater Celsus refer to Jesus as a historic person?

...{Celsus} accuses {Jesus} of having "invented his birth from a virgin," and upbraids Him with being "born in a certain Jewish village, of a poor woman of the country, who gained her subsistence by spinning, and who was turned out of doors by her husband, a carpenter by trade, because she was convicted of adultery; that after being driven away by her husband, and wandering about for a time, she disgracefully gave birth to Jesus, an illegitimate child, who having hired himself out as a servant in Egypt on account of his poverty, and having there acquired some miraculous powers, on which the Egyptians greatly pride themselves, returned to his own country, highly elated on account of them, and by means of these proclaimed himself a God."... Celsus' view of Christians and Christianity

[darkstar3]

38. Your question answers itself.

Anyone with a rabid hatred of Christians is going to find any way they can to discredit the story the Christians follow. If the Christians absolutely refuse to listen to someone who claims their savior didn't exist, then a rabid Christian hater will simply take a different tack.

Aside from that, anyone with a rabid hatred of anything can hardly be considered an objective, unbiased, or even reliable source of information.

[phasma ex machina]

39. How come the Jews who wrote the Gemaras of the Talmud tell of Jesus' flesh-and-blood existence? nt

[darkstar3]

40. Couldn't tell you, but their writings,

even if they DO mention Jesus as flesh and blood, do nothing to validate Celsus.

[phasma ex machina]

41. Do you dispute the existence of Celsus or his writings?

The Talmud refers to Jesus several places, typically as "Ben Pandera", where Pandera is sometimes taken to be the name of a Roman soldier who was Jesus' illegitimate father. It may also be a play on words, since the Greek word for virgin is "parthenos". In the Baraila: "On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and the herald went before him for forty days saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) is going forth to be stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defence come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defence and hanged him on the eve of Passover." (Babylonia Sanhedrin 43a). - McDowell

[darkstar3]

42. OK, two things.

One, I am not disputing the existence of Celsus, but rather the credibility of his writings on Jesus because of his obvious bias, which you admitted.

Further, Yeshu, or Yeshua as some people call it in translation, was such a common Hebrew name at the time of the Biblical Jesus' supposed existence as to be the contemporary equivalent of today's "John Smith." There is nothing in what you have quoted to indicate that the Yeshu referenced here is in fact the Jesus from the Bible.

In fact, you (like any historical or biblical scholar) would hard pressed to prove that any Yeshu or Yeshua referenced in ancient texts is indeed the Jesus from the Bible.

[phasma ex machina]

43. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus speaks of one particular Yeshu as Christ.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. Antiquities of the Jews

[darkstar3]

44. Little problem:

Christ is a Greek word which came into usage well after Jesus' death. It was never used in Hebrew. Why would a Jewish historian write in Greek instead of Hebrew or even Aramaic?

Aside from that, Josephus' accounts of Jesus have been discredited by many historians because of his documented bias. Also, the passage quoted here has been altered. Even the Jewish Encyclopedia states that:
In its present form, this passage can not have originated with Josephus

Think about this for a minute. If a Jewish historian actually believed in the Gospel story of Jesus, and this historian had not been discredited or disgraced in some fashion, wouldn't that mean that a whole lot more Jews would actually be Christians?

Lastly, even if you can somehow prove (which historians and theologians have been trying unsuccessfully to do for centuries) that Jesus was an undoubtedly real person, does that somehow magically prove that he really did perform miracles, or was the son of "God"?

[phasma ex machina]

48. History does a fair job of proving that a person named Jesus actually existed.

(Only 2 pagan historians appear in this thread thus far, leaving 17 more to introduce before we get down to actually debating the credibility of each source.)

In the end each person must decide for themselves whether this historic Jesus was a madman or a messiah.

[PassingFair]

51. Actually, "history" does a poor job of it, and so do you.

In the end, you either believe in the historical Robin Hood or you don't.

[phasma ex machina]

52. False analogy. nt

[trotsky]

55. You're a Josh McDowell fan, aren't you?

You've only got two legs of his false trilemma, you know. It's Lord, Liar, or Lunatic. It's a false trilemma because there are a large number of other possibilities, ranging from Jesus not existing as a real person at all to being simply mistaken, to being a real person (or combination of real people) who was exaggerated about or simply had fiction written about him by later people.

McDowell is also big on these (disproven) "pagan" historians that supposedly "prove" the historicity of Jesus. Even though they're all false. I'm more than willing to knock each one down - so let's go. So far we've discredited the passages from Josephus, Celsus, Suetonius, and Tacitus. 15 more to go.

Bring 'em on.

[phasma ex machina]

56. Not really. I first learned of McDowell by doing research for this very thread.

The rationale of that unknown usenet poster works for me.

I have taken all but the first set of quotations from McDowell. He is a somewhat controversial writer, as he represents the fundamentalist end of Christianity. However his book is a convenient list of quotations that are commonly cited. I've included most of the list, to give you a feel for what are typically cited.

[trotsky]

60. Ah, I see.

Pure coincidence you used the same pattern and some of the same terminology.

So let me know when you want to go though those other 15 bogus sources. Happy Solstice!

[phasma ex machina]

61. As a matter of fact, yes, indeed it was coincidence.

Accepting your premise of sameness for the moment, it may indicate that McDowell championed those very saliences decades ago. Regardless, the first couple of paragraphs of my link disclose McDowell's Evangelical bias.

"Happy Solstice!" to you too. (Even if it feels a bit like saying "Happy New Year!" on January 6.)

[trotsky]

47. No, you don't get to change the subject when you lose.

If you first admit Tacitus is NOT a valid source to support the existence of the Jesus character, THEN I'm willing to move on to Celsus.

[phasma ex machina]

50. In "Life of Nero" Suetonius collaborates Tacitus' account of Nero punishing Christians.

In the "Life of Claudius" Suetonius mentions troublesome "Chrestus."

[trotsky]

54. First item doesn't prove the historicity of Jesus, only of Christians.

Second item is simply false.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/scott_oser/hojfaq.html

Suetonius and Jesus

In his The Lives of the Caesars, Suetonius, writing around 120 CE, states:

"Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus expelled them from Rome." (Claudius 5.25.4)

Occasionally this passage is cited as evidence for Jesus's historicity. However, there are serious problems with this interpretation:

1. "Chrestus" is the correct Latin form of an actual Greek name, and is not obviously a mispelling of "Christus", meaning Christ.
2. The passage seems to imply that there was actually someone named Chrestus at Rome at the time. This rules out a reference to Jesus.
3. Even if Suetonius is referring to Christians in Rome, this only confirms the existence of Christians, not the existence of Jesus. There is no doubt that there were Christians in Rome during the first century CE--this of course does NOT imply that Jesus actually lived during the first half of this century.

Thus, Suetonius fails to confirm the historicity of Jesus.

Keep lining up those dominoes, and I'll keep knocking them right down.

[phasma ex machina]

58. Do you always let infidels.org do all of your thinking for you?

If so, I can read it myself.

:shrug:

[trotsky]

59. Little thinking is required to knock down your bogus information.

The historicity of Jesus, as described in your bible, is truly a matter of faith.

[phasma ex machina]

62. I thank you for sharing infidels.org with me, I shall use it in my research.

Although it takes more than wordy treatises attacking the veracity of ancient witnesses to dissuade me from regarding Jesus as a historic person.

[darkstar3]

63. Translation:

Nothing you read is going to change your point of view. You have just admitted a very large bias.

[phasma ex machina]

64. Pretty words may sway the gullable but only hard evidence works for me. nt

[darkstar3]

65. How do you figure that?

There's no hard evidence that Jesus existed historically, only "pretty words", and yet you believe it.

[phasma ex machina]

66. Up thread cites ancient historians and philosophers who wrote of Jesus as a living breathing person.

It actully started getting deep enough for waders in this thread when a skeptic divined that although Celsus wrote of Jesus as an actual person Celsus actually knew in his heart of hearts that Jesus was really a myth. Celsus was just playing future Christians (Xtians?) don't you know? :sarcasm:

Since then the thread devolved into a he says / she says pissing contest. So be it. In that case my own sources win for me. YMMV.

[darkstar3]

67. Bullshit.

You've moved the goalposts again, AND you've put words into other people's mouths.

Answer this question: Do you have hard evidence that Jesus existed historically? If not, why do you believe that he did, and then claim that only hard evidence will force you to believe otherwise?

[phasma ex machina]

68. You say bullshit I say bullshat and so it goes. nt

[darkstar3]

69. You, too, are an inartful dodger. n/t

[phasma ex machina]

70. Am not! nt

[darkstar3]

71. Then answer the question. n/t

[phasma ex machina]

72. Why? nt

[darkstar3]

73. Because you can either answer the question,

or admit by your silence that you are indeed biased, and that you move the goalposts at will for no better reason than to suit your own rhetorical needs.

[phasma ex machina]

74. Would it make you happy if I answered the question? nt

[trotsky]

75. There are 2 simple facts that spell doom for any kind of historical corroboration of Jesus:

1) The earliest church leaders, who generally quoted extensively from a lot of the works you're trying to bring up, never mention the particular passages that you do AT ALL. Now isn't that odd? Here they were, in the same position you are - trying to support the existence of a historical Jesus - and they didn't ever quote any of the "best" passages. Why, it's almost as if those quotes didn't exist at the time. Which leads us to...

2) Guess whose responsibility it was once Christians had all the scholastic and political power, to ensure ancient manuscripts were cared for, duplicated, etc.? Yup, Christian scholars. You don't think there would be just a wee bit of ulterior motive for them to insert more favorable language when they were copying these manuscripts? Refer back to point 1 and you've pretty much got an airtight case for forgery.

These quotes weren't used until Christians were the ones responsible for translating, transcribing, and duplicating the documents in which they were found. In other words, these same Christians had the motive, the means, and the opportunity to forge documents favorable to their religion.

Although it takes more than wordy treatises attacking the veracity of ancient witnesses to dissuade me from regarding Jesus as a historic person.

As I said, it's a matter of faith. And clearly the existence of a real, historical Jesus is absolutely vital to your faith, so I highly doubt there's any evidence that would persuade you otherwise. You've invested too much in one belief.

[Ignis]

53. One slightly used Goalpost with Wheels for sale. (nt)

[phasma ex machina]

57. Deleted. nt

[ZombieHorde]

46. "At least 19 pagan historians refer to Jesus Christ as a real life historical person."

What evidence did they supply?

[phasma ex machina]

49. See the earlier subthread in this thread for an introduction to 2 of the 19. nt

[joeybee12]

11. Oh, I agree it's a myth, but I still like the Christmas season...n/t

[DuckyCase]

14. Most everyone either has really positive memories tied to Christmas or...

Really negative ones.

[DuckyCase]

13. I always love the "Don't forget the reason for the season" crowd.

I'm always like..."Do you know the reason for the season? I'm pretty sure it predates Jesus by hundreds of years." But they always just take it as me being a snarky Jew.

[sakabatou]

28. Yeah, I know the reason for the season

Chocolate gelt :9

[Echo In Light]

16. The list of pre-Christian religions that likewise use its same, central tenets is extensive

[conscious evolution]

18. Have a Merry Mithrasmas

and a Happy Horus Day!!

[Echo In Light]

19. You too! Now I'm off to tend to my sacrificial altar to Baal

[sakabatou]

29. Don't you mean the volcano of flat beer?

[rd_kent]

76. Kick