As a solid atheist, I will change and believe in the existence of

[MineralMan]

any deity which visits a VA hospital and restores the missing limbs of all amputees in that hospital. I'm sure any deity worthy of its omnipotence could do this standing on its head(s).

The challenge is made.

[rd_kent]

1. Dont hold your breath...(for god OR for any religious types to repond)

[MineralMan]

3. Well, I figure I'm putting those deities to the test.

Particularly those deities that claim to love mankind. What a wonderful thing it would be to restore lost limbs as a demonstration of that love.

As far as I know, no amputated limb has ever been restored by the act of a deity. It's an opportunity for any of the thousands of deities to make a claim toward being the master deity.

I mean, if a deity can speak a universe into existence, a few missing arms and legs would take little more than a snap of the fingers, I'd think.

[Sal316]

57. Others have demanded miracles, too.

One day the Pharisees and Sadducees came to test Jesus, demanding that he show them a miraculous sign from heaven to prove his authority. He replied, “You know the saying, ‘Red sky at night means fair weather tomorrow; red sky in the morning means foul weather all day.’ You know how to interpret the weather signs in the sky, but you don’t know how to interpret the signs of the times! Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah.” Then Jesus left them and went away. (Matthew 16:1-4)

Then the devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become a loaf of bread.” (Luke 4:3)

Then the devil took him to Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, and said, “If you are the Son of God, jump off! 10 For the Scriptures say, "He will order his angels to protect and guard you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone." (Luke 4:9-10)


God will often answer the prayers of the faithful, just as the demands of the petulant are summarily dismissed.

[Lost-in-FL]

2. ...

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[MineralMan]

8. Your clock appears to have stopped.

Time does seem to stand still when you're waiting for a miracle, does it not?

[Lost-in-FL]

22. It is going to take a while my friend.

Not enough popcorn in the world.


Like someone said earlier, don't hold your breath.

[madrchsod]

4. god ain`t got nothing to do with the folly`s of human beings

he or she just sorts things out when we get to the pearly gate......!

[Deep13]

35. So he just made us this way, but won't take responsibility for...

...his creation. But everything good that happens is still because of god and not our efforts.

[wtmusic]

5. God has his/her reasons for not doing it.

And miraculously, it hasn't been done. Proof that God exists.

[MineralMan]

7. Ah, I see it all more clearly now...

:toast:

[Booster]

6. I've asked several of my religious friends why, in all these years,

has God not wanted to add a little something to the bible, like "thou shalt not text while driving". Their answer is always "it's perfect just the way it is". LOL

[MineralMan]

9. How would they know? Most have read little of it, in my

experience.

[pnwmom]

10. I'm curious why the restoration of just one missing limb wouldn't be enough. n/t

[rd_kent]

15. It would be. Do you think its gonna happen?

[pnwmom]

33. Of course not. n.t

[rd_kent]

43. So why your question then? It implies that one healed limb would suffice, yet you don't think even

that will happen. I'm confused as to why you responded at all.

[MineralMan]

34. Well, I'd just like to see more. As long as the deity is stopping

by, it might as well fix a bunch of folks, doncha think?

[tinrobot]

11. You have an odd conception of god.

Then again, so do a lot of people.

[darkstar3]

12. And what is your conception of God? n/t

[tinrobot]

13. Does it really matter? n/t

[darkstar3]

17. Actually, yes.

You see, most conceptions of God deal with an incredibly powerful deity, who usually embodies good things about the universe (hence the etymology, good -> god). So I'm curious if your conception of God differs from the conceptions most of us are familiar with.

You see, if God is powerful and embodies good things, like love, then why would this God allow such good people to suffer?

It's a pretty standard question for a pretty standard God. If your concept differs, then the question may or may not be moot. If your concept does not differ significantly, then doesn't the question deserve some form of answer?

[tinrobot]

18. I don't want to convert anyone, so my beliefs are personal.

Are you trying to convert me?

[rd_kent]

19. I see you like to dance.....around the answers.....

[tinrobot]

20. OK... I don't see god as separate

Describing god as a "powerful deity" or something that is separate from the whole misses the point entirely.

[rd_kent]

23. So why is the conception of god in the OP any more odd than yours?

I mean, you opened this line of questioning with your initial response.

[tinrobot]

25. A deity that goes around replacing lost limbs seems rather odd.

Kind of like a backwards tooth fairy or something.

But that's just my opinion... and like I said, I'm not here to convert anyone, so I'll leave it at that.

Have a nice evening.

[rd_kent]

27. So, you are saying that the majority consensus of what god is is odd?

Because the god most think of performs (or can, anyway) those types of miracles. (you know, heal the sick, etc...)

[tinrobot]

28. You're creating a strawman

Have fun knocking it down.

People believe all sorts of things. There is no "majority consensus."

[darkstar3]

30. Sorry, but you're wrong.

54% of the world's population is either Christian or Muslim. Both of these religions follow the same definition of God, namely a single, exterior, personified, supernatural, highly (or all) powerful creator-type being.

There does seem to be a majority consensus on what "God" is.

[tinrobot]

31. Feel better now?

I'm sure your ego is happy.

Nite.

[darkstar3]

32. My ego has nothing to do with it.

You made a claim about majority consensus, and since I happened not to believe your claim I did a quick google search and found this:http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

It disputes your claim by showing that the majority of people, not just religious people, but all people, believe in a very specific type of God.

I see no way in which ego factors into this.

[rd_kent]

38. No, it is not a strawman, its reality.

Most "believers" to believe that their god can perform miracles, including healing the sick. YOU opened this can of worms, friend, not me, by stating that this is an odd conception of god.

[roguevalley]

24. my concept of God is that he gives us the dance floor and free will.

what we do is our own fault. I don't expect God to come down or over or whatever and do anything. That's our job. Anything less than that is infantilizing our species. We have a brain, two hands and ability to do either war or peace. Its our fault if we don't. We got the perfect world to do it with.

[darkstar3]

26. Not exactly kind of him, was it?

Your view of God is not new to me, but I've always considered that view of God to be the "mad scientist." In this case, it seems mostly like we are simply an experiment to entertain this god-like being.

I'm not fond of that view.

[roguevalley]

42. you have a view, I have a view. frankly, given that we aren't a stupid

species and free will seems to be a theme in our head, it would appear that we choose how bad/good/indifferent we get to be. that isn't about kindness. its about the adults letting the children grow up to be adults. they are given ethical training and the hope of choosing well. its an individual failure if you don't, with mitigating circumstances often. but I don't blame God.

[trotsky]

39. Do we have free will in heaven?

Just curious.

[roguevalley]

40. IMO, we have free will always. some of us just choose the wrong

path.

[rd_kent]

41. What do you consider to be the right and wrong path?

[EvilAL]

44. hmmmm..

Once you get in.. yer in right? So I can sin to my heart's content in heaven. Makes for some lovely wonderings. 70 or so years of loving kindness.. and eternity of tormenting others. It's a deal.

[trotsky]

47. So people can choose the wrong path in heaven?

And they can hurt others?

[rd_kent]

14. Seems to be the general concensus. What yours?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

16. Odd?

As opposed to your conception of god? Any conception of god should be considered odd.

[Deep13]

36. Doesn't that mean your conception is the odd one? nt

[rrneck]

21. Hell, I'd call it a miracle

if just half the assholes who are waiting for God to make them rich would show up and kick in a couple of bucks for coffee.

[ZombieHorde]

29. As a solid atheist, I will change and believe in the existence of any deity

if someone makes a sizable deposit into my paypal account.

[LAGC]

62. Sell out.

:p

[Deep13]

37. Then I'd ask him why he didn't just make a universe without lost limbs. nt

[Nihil]

63. Maybe he did but the jellyfish got there first?

:shrug:

(And no, I'm not going to go into the whole "natural regeneration of lost limbs"
bit that many creatures can do or it will only encourage the followers of the FSM
to stick their oar in again ... :P)

[54anickel]

45. Oh dear lord, no! Let's not make it any easier for TPTB to mindlessly wage war. n/t

[sakabatou]

46. I will change with any objective evidence for God

So far, I got zilch.

[Sal316]

48. Oh, how cute....

...the "genie" God challenge.

Yawn... how unoriginal.

[TZ]

49. Well according to the bible

If god can change water into wine and Jesus could walk on water, why not restore limbs? But seriously the "miracles" in the bible like the burning bush seem like cheap magic tricks and don't impress me at all.

[Sal316]

53. You know....

...both Herod and Satan demanded miracles, too.

Good company you're keeping.

[skepticscott]

50. So you're saying that

all of the people who claim to heal or to have been healed of all manner of ailments by the help of God are simply deluded? Is God not being a "genie" there too? Or are you saying that God really heals people, but very craftily never does it in ways that couldn't possibly happen on their own, because that would give him away?

[Sal316]

54. No, that's not what I said at all.

Here, let me fill you in.

There's a difference between answering the prayers of the faithful and kowtowing to the demands of the petulant.

That concept must be understood first before the discussion can go any further.

[skepticscott]

61. A difference to who?

To God? And you know this....how? Has he shared his policy on when he will use his power to heal someone and when he won't with you personally, or have you just presumed it? And does he share his magic healing power with huckstering TV preachers just out to fleece people? And what about the people who have turned away from God because he failed to heal their child of a deadly disease, despite all of their prayers? Are they faithful or "petulant"? Or the amputees who have faithfully prayed to God to be made whole, without urging from anyone "petulant" trying to put him to the test? Funny that none of them have ever had their limbs restored either, eh?

Now that you understand how silly your concept is, feel free to take the discussion further.

[ZombieHorde]

51. Isn't any God who answers prayers a "genie" God? nt

[Sal316]

55. Nope.

Like I told SkepticScott,

Answering the prayers of the faithful isn't nearly the same as bowing to the demands of the petulant.

In fact, in Scripture, demands by non-believers for miracles as "proof" are ignored and rebuked. Both Satan (in the Temptation) and Herod demanded miracles...

There's only one place, one instance where God tells us to test him....

[lazarus]

56. and, conveniently

God doesn't answer all the prayers of the faithful, either.

Tell me, how would a universe with no god be different from a universe with a god who only answers some prayers, by some people, seemingly at random?

[Sal316]

58. If you see it as seemingly random....

..then perhaps your perspective is backwards.

[lazarus]

59. can it be predicted?

Can you predict which prayers your god will answer and which he will not? If not, then, from our point of view, it's random. Unpredictable.

As for a backwards perspective, you imply that your perspective is that of god's, knowing what he knows and knowing his plan. Congrats. The Pope would probably like a few words.

[darkstar3]

60. And you have an original argument

where, exactly?

Would you prefer we refer to your God as the Secret Santa in the Sky? Perhaps the Random Damner?

If you think that a request like this is "testing" God, then what about requests for miracles from pious cancer patients, faithful victims of violent crimes, and so on?

You know what, let's forget the hypothetical, and come back to the facts: Show me a documented miracle (and when I say documented, I mean from a legitimate source).

[caitxrawks]

52. lawl

You sound like my husband. He says he'll believe in god when cancer is cured overnight.