Israel asks pope to open up WWII archives

[ZombieHorde]

ROME, Jan 17 (Reuters) - Israel on Sunday asked Pope Benedict to open up the Vatican archives covering the wartime papacy of Pope Pius XII, who has been accused by some Jews of turning a blind eye to the Holocaust.

"I asked the pope to find a way to make it possible to open the archives in the Vatican in order to give some details of the papacy of Pius XII in order to ease tensions between the Jewish people and Catholics," Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Silvan Shalom told Reuters at the end of the pope's visit to Rome's synagogue.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE60G0GL20100117

[Rhiannon12866]

1. It's a noble idea to attempt to correct the misconceptions of history...

But what if they don't get the corrections that they're looking for? :shrug:

[Behind the Aegis]

2. What are YOU implying?

[Rhiannon12866]

3. I'm not implying anything...

I wasn't around back then, but I'm well aware of the reputation that Pope Pius had for not standing up to the Nazis. If the records prove that this was true, then they won't get the reconciliation that they're seeking... That's all. :-(

How's your pup? :hi:

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Did I misread?

"But what if they don't get the corrections that they're looking for? :shrug:"

I read the "they" as Israel, as it was the subject of the OP. So, I was wondering what you thought "they" (Israel) would do? Given the attitude toward Israel at this site, it isn't a huge leap to think you (could be a general "you") would think Israel would act in a bad way. The hate for Israel at this site rivals a number of forms of bigotry, but hate against Israel is acceptable here. Israel is evil. Israelis are vile creatures. Israel is the "Jewish nation." Jews are evil. Think I am shitting you? I can show you it is a common occurrence here.

I apologize if I read more into you your post than I should have done.

As for my pup...Voodoo just turned 4 years old on Jan, 13th! We are still waiting on the arrival of his mate (who we have named, Laveau (after the Voodoo Queen of New Orleans)).

(nudge, nudge...get it? Voodoo? Voodoo's queen? Cool name, huh?)

[Silent3]

5. Wow. You certainly seem to have an axe to grind.

I think there's a lot of disagreement with some of the policies of the Israeli government, but that's a far cry of "Jews are evil". I don't doubt that you've seen some actual antisemitism in a few posts here and there, but there is such a loud and noisy mix of so many types of people on DU that any of us will encounter plenty of anti-anything-you-can-think-of language if we go looking for it.

[Behind the Aegis]

8. Wow. You certainly have a way of missing the point.

I just love this warped piece of logic:

"I don't doubt that you've seen some actual antisemitism in a few posts here and there, but there is such a loud and noisy mix of so many types of people on DU that any of us will encounter plenty of anti-anything-you-can-think-of language if we go looking for it."

Hey, everyone, it's MY fault! :eyes: The "race card" as an excuse....good for you. :eyes:

One doesn't need to go "look for anti-Semitism" at this site, it pops up in the usual locations, topics about Israel being one of them. WOW! What a shocker! :eyes:

[Silent3]

23. Huh? Race card?

I don't see how any "race card" has anything to with what I said at all.

And I wasn't talking about anything being "your fault" unless you're so thin skinned that someone suggesting that your analysis of the situation on DU is flawed is something you interpret as "blame".

Do you consider all criticism of the policies of the Israeli government the same thing as "antisemitism"? If that's your standard for antisemitism then sure, I guess by that standard so-called antisemitism isn't hard to find.

But if you're talking about actual ethnic prejudice against Jews, no, I don't see a lot of that around here. If there is, it's new to me.

Examples? Links?

[darkstar3]

6. Let me clarify something simple but very important for you:

A lack of support for the state of Israel does not equal Antisemitism. To equate the two is to aid and abet a foreign policy that has for decades been the brainchild of the right, and is also grounds for moving this particular thread to another forum full of flame-wars.

Further, if it weren't against the rules, I would challenge you to show me where anyone on this site has referred to Israelis as "vile creatures" or flat-out referred to Jews as "evil". I suspect that if such a post were made it would be quickly scrubbed and the poster shown the door by the mods, because trolls and their knavish behavior are not welcome here.

But don't let reason get in the way of finding someone to knock that chip off your shoulder...

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Let me clarify something very simple and ancient for you...

Strawmen, a logical fallacy, have been around for ages, much like anti-Semitism. Like anti-Semitism, they have little to do with the actual "topic." Your post is nothing more than a classic example of a strawmen gone wild. And as you (almost) say: "But don't let reason get in the way of finding someone to knock" some sense into your brain...

"Further, if it weren't against the rules, I would challenge you to show me where anyone on this site has referred to Israelis as "vile creatures" or flat-out referred to Jews as "evil". I suspect that if such a post were made it would be quickly scrubbed and the poster shown the door by the mods, because trolls and their knavish behavior are not welcome here."

You should submit that paragraph to a local university department of philosophy (attn: logic classes) for study (and a series of hearty laughs).

[darkstar3]

9. Try again.

The only strawman here is yours, because you are stretching to try and equate Israel as a state to Judaism in general, as is patently obvious in post #4 to anyone with a 5th grade reading capacity. Israel, while mostly made up of Jews, has other citizens and residents as well, and has stated before that they welcome everyone. Further, there are Jews around the world that have never been to Israel, and never plan to go. To equate Judaism with the state of Israel (especially in its current form) is conflation of the worst kind, and useful only to build the strawman argument that lacking support for Israel is the same as anti-Semitism.

After building that strawman, you claim here that anti-Semitism has little to do with the actual topic, and yet anti-Semitism is clearly what you're bitching about in post #4. So which is it, oh bilious one? You brought it up, so does anti-Semitism have anything to do with this particular discussion or not?

Now, to clarify the paragraph that you misunderstood:
1) It is against the rules to call out another DUer or another thread. Therefore, as much as I might like you to substantiate your claims of anti-Semitism, it cannot be done here.
2) While the occasional troll does manage to get past the gatekeepers and post a vile screed against Jews that would normally be found on Stormfront, rest assured that the mods are here to take care of that shit, and they take their jobs seriously. As for ACTUAL DUers who engage in discussions on the I/P conflict, I sincerely doubt you can find one of them who has ever referred to Jews as "evil" or to Israelis as "vile creatures." If you disagree, then find some proof, and PM it to me. Better yet, PM it to the mods so that vile shit like that can be removed.

BTW, you might want to be careful attacking someone else's logical caliber while at the same time genuinely mistaking the words "series" and "serious".

[Behind the Aegis]

10. The strawman is all yours. Own it.

I made no "stretch" to compare criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, though it does occur and I did draw it out as an example; the main bigotry was about anti-Israel attitudes. I can understand how someone like you could get confused so easily, given your other post in another thread similar to this topic (OP). It is clear your reading skills are not up to par, just as your skills of logic also seem lacking.

I didn't misunderstand your paragraph, I simply found it to be typical of posters like yourself. Anti-Semitism exists here but because you can't see it, it must only be by the occasional troll and not at all an issue.

"BTW, you might want to be careful attacking someone else's logical caliber while at the same time genuinely mistaking the words "series" and "serious"."

That has nothing to do with logic, but poor proofreading, which explains why I changed it prior to your post.

[darkstar3]

11. Backtrack all you want,

the fact remains that in post #4 you said this:

The hate for Israel at this site rivals a number of forms of bigotry, but hate against Israel is acceptable here. Israel is evil. Israelis are vile creatures. Israel is the "Jewish nation." Jews are evil. Think I am shitting you? I can show you it is a common occurrence here.

You went from supposedly anti-Israel sentiments to anti-Semitism in one paragraph.

Why is it that every time a someone on this site gets angry, and posts something that they really shouldn't have, it's suddenly the other person who lacks reading and logic skills? I found a strawman in your post, therefore I must be misreading what you tried to say and using logic improperly, is that it? Are you so convinced of your own incredible faculties that you could never possibly be wrong? Are you such an incredible logician that you could never use a strawman? I sincerely doubt it, mostly because of your over-use of a little logical fallacy called ad hom.

BTW: To reiterate my point above, if you diagree, find some proof and PM it to me.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. No back-tracking needed.

It just shows how little you understand. Perhaps it would have been more clear had I used the equal sign or offset the comment to show it as a sign of progression. However, I still doubt that would have even helped you. Anti-Israel bigotry is accepted here. The rare occasion where it is not is when it is mired or mixed with anti-Semitism; is that too confusing for you?

I think a better question for you is why do some here think they know other's experiences at this site, and when it doesn't match their own, well it must be because they have a chip on their shoulder or are just stupid? Maybe you can't recognize your own strawman because of your own arrogance and ignorance on an age old topic?

[darkstar3]

13. More claims

of logical superiority while employing a logical fallacy. Goodbye.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Wow! How unexpected.

Not really. Just because you can't make your point, you take your ball home. So be it. At least I don't have to continue with a poster, who like many here, have no fucking clue what they are talking about when it comes to Israel.

[ZombieHorde]

15. I don't see the strawman. Will you explain it to me? nt

[Behind the Aegis]

16. ...

"A lack of support for the state of Israel does not equal Antisemitism."

[ZombieHorde]

17. I am glad you weren't, but I thought you were equating the two as well.

At least to me, your post seems ambiguous.

I am glad this is simply a misunderstanding.

I occasionally read the I/P forum and I know the threads can get nasty over there.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. Perhaps I could have been clearer with the use of > or =, but I didn't do it.

I was more interested in Rhiannon12866's response as to what Israel "might do." I have never thought all criticism of Israel was based in anti-Semitism, but there are times it is, and that is just reality. The "funny" thing is the number of posters who will make that claim are usually doing so in the opposite direction though no-one has made such a claim in the thread (see above). The real issue many here don't want to face up to is the rampant bigotry directed at Israel as a nation. It can be anti-Semitic laden or not. The knee-jerk reaction of hate from some when ever Israel is mentioned is more what I was addressing. My apologies for the confusion.

[Silent3]

24. The quoted phrase is the straw man?

Or is someone using that phrase, with the implication that you construe "A lack of support for the state of Israel (with) Antisemitism" the thing you're calling a straw man?

In either case, it's typically far from sufficient to point at a thing and yell "straw man!". Making that claim carries a reasonable expectation to explain how the particular thing is a straw man. You, however, apparently would like to pretend that the straw man-ism is obvious, and huff and puff that anyone who doesn't see things as you do is either unworthy of your vaunted intelligence or sees the same thing you do, but is in denial about it.

I personally don't think antisemitism has very much to do with support (or lack thereof) for the policies of the Israeli government. Perhaps you disagree. If so, however, it's a debatable point, not a straw man.

I you agree with me that the two things are different, all you need do is say so, and then we could move beyond that issue to clarify what your complaint about DU really is about.

For someone so quick to lash out at the logical skills and reading comprehension of others, you certainly have enough logic and communication skills problems of your own to take into account.

So, if it's not beneath you to answer a straight-forward question, and you can at least do me the favor of providing a direct answer before you move on to complain about my total unworthiness to debate you...

"A lack of support for the state of Israel does not equal Antisemitism." Do you personally agree or disagree?

[Meshuga]

25. The straw man, as he puts, is that he does not...

...need to be told that "a lack of support for the state of Israel does not equal antisemitism" because "lack of support for Israel = antisemitism" is not his position.

He should explain himself better (like he did in post #18) from the beginning to avoid the exchanges he's had in this thread. Giving people the benefit of the doubt is always a good idea and a perception about DU (and the nasty shit that is at times posted in the I/P forum and 9/11 forum, for example) does not justify knee jerk reactions and certainly does not justify the prejudging of posters.

When the person does that he/she starts to lose credibility and that is not a good thing when he/she wants to convince others that a problem really exists.

[Silent3]

26. I don't think I've ever read the I/P (Israel/Palestine, I presume) forum...

...and I've only occasionally looked at the conspiratorial craziness of the 9/11 forum, so if that's where this guy is getting his impressions of antisemitism on DU, it's not something I've been exposed to much. Even if there is a lot of antisemitism there (I still kind of doubt there's as much as this giant-chip-on-his-shoulder guy thinks), it would be a big unfounded leap to assume those two forums are representative of DU as a whole.

At any rate, I guess we agree that this poster is a less than effective messenger for the message he is trying to present. Maybe there is more antisemitism here than I'm aware of, but I didn't learn anything about it in this thread -- in fact, I'm more rather than less inclined to believe it because of the way BtA presents his case.

[Meshuga]

28. I cannot judge DU as a whole either

I cannot judge DU as a whole either because I only read and participate in a handful of forums but I never see the stuff we are talkng about in R/T which is the forum I participate/read the most. I've had participants here pointing stuff out to me privately with examples of what is being said elsewhere and I occasionally take a peak in the I/P forum and respond/alert to the nasty stuff. But the mods do a good job deleting the posts.

The only criticism I have has to do with the way DU admins/mods handle this issue which I will not comment since I would be breaking the rules.

Regardless, I agree that it is obvious that reading between the lines to find antisemitism when there is none will upset people and make the accuser seem like a nut case. While I understand the chip-on-his-shoulder in regards to some more far left posters in DU it does not justify the barking at the wrong people. In other words, yes, it is pretty hard to be an effective messenger when even the people you are trying to convince are viewed with suspicion.

I know BtA has caught a lot of flak in the past here in DU for little. The most disturbing case was when he took the initiative to establish a Jewish group in DU. The request to start a group is public in GD and some of the responses were so nasty that they prompted Skinner to respond and even start a thread expressing how embarrassed he was with the conduct of a lot of DUers. But again, examples like this should not be used to justify reading between the lines. If someone says something that is ignorant then you can try to bring facts as opposed to rocks to throw at the person. That would be the reasonable and fair approach in my opinion.

[Rhiannon12866]

19. I think so, but no apology necessary...

My point was that they are looking for greater reconciliation between the two faiths. And, yes, "they" means Israel, according to this article. However, if the records show that Pope Pius XII did indeed give in to the Nazis, as is his historical reputation, what happens then? Sounds like opening Pandora's box, to me... I was not aware of any huge animosity between Catholics and Jews, but this revelation could well cause one. That's all that I meant. :shrug:

I spent my first couple of years on DU primarily in I/P, so I'm well aware of the discord that you're referring to... My friend, The Magistrate, calls that forum, "The Grudge Match in the Basement..." ;)

And though I have definite opinions on particular incidents, I've never been one to condemn anyone with broad strokes, my continued membership on this board (after seven years) as proof of that. My only deleted post, thus far, was on an animal thread... x( The small firestorm on this particular thread proves the reason that we have "special rules" in I/P... :-(

I'm so glad to hear that Voodoo is doing well, and that he's going to soon have a companion. He is such a cutie!:loveya:

My little Jack turns four at the end of March, and is continuing to make do with the two cats. His BFF, Charlie, a 100-lb. Airedale, passed away a year ago this month. ;( They'd been best buddies since we adopted Jack at five months old... Wish Voodoo a very Happy Birthday from Jackie and me, and please post pix when Laveau arrives! :hi:

Jack and Charlie :loveya:

[Behind the Aegis]

20. I appreciate the follow up.

There has been, as of late, a widening gap between Catholics and Jews. Things have been tense since the new Pope took "office."

I hope Jack gets a new buddy soon. I will pass on the b-day wishes and of course, will post pics as soon as new baby arrives!! :)

Again, I apologize for not being clearer, but at least you seemed to understand what I was saying...kind of. ;)

ETA: See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII#Hitler.27s_Pope_and_The_Myth_of_Hitler.27s_Pope for more of an understanding at some of the tension.

[Rhiannon12866]

21. Me, too.

And I understand exactly what you mean, guess I haven't been paying enough attention recently. I don't know if you were here for "the pope wars," but they were pretty brutal, as these things can be on DU. Of course, there are people here who condemn religion of any kind, so any pope would not be a popular figure... x(

I did, however, successfully manage to defend Pope JP II (Karol Wojtyla), who, to my mind, was heroic in many ways during WWII, working against the Nazis. Joey Ratz (now Pope Benedict), on the other hand, is a completely different story... I realize that he was young, but so were many others who stepped up to the plate, including Karol Wojtyla. His heroic efforts were documented, which managed to convince the naysayers here who just didn't like any pope... :-)

Jack may be meeting another companion soon, one nearer his own size, but it's a complicated story... :shrug:

But we do celebrate Voodoo's good fortune and hope that things work out as well as you planned. I'm told, and have experienced, that male-female is usually the best combination for compatibility, Jack and Charlie being a notable exception... ;)

And I do understand exactly what you mean, remembering the reputation of the current pope. x(

And thanks so much for the link! I look forward to learning more... I only have vague recollections about what was said about Pope Pius, mainly that my mother didn't think much of him, though she was only a kid, for exactly the same reasons that history has thus far condemned him... :-(

Rhiannon :hi:

[Rhiannon12866]

22. p.s. Speaking of coincidences...

Don't know if you happened to see this thread... :scared:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4229794&mesg_id=4229794

[DeadEyeDyck]

27. I agree

in that I trade stocks daily based on short term historical information. One of my tools are the SMA's. I usually look at multiple Simply Moving Averages for trends. But I alswo study trends that I hacve missed. The one thing I need to continually remind myself when looking at historical data is that I only was privvy to the left side of the time line at any given time line.

IOW's, revisionism can be pretty damning when not truly understood in the full historical context. All of that must be taken into account to fully understand an ERA. Not a study for a punk.