Deference to Religion

[yellowwood]

Is it just me or is the trend toward nutty religions growing? I'm not even talking about the mainstream religions. I'm hearing more people saying things like "I prayed to God, and he found me a new house." And more.

I am thinking that this is happening because the rest of us are being too polite to speak up when we disagree with some religious statement. Most of us were taught to not argue a religious opinion no matter how crazy we think it is.

As long as we defer to religious opinions, we are perceived to be in agreement. I believe that we should speak out when we disagree.

[Name removed]

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[Lars39]

6. But that's just it...you can be having a perfectly rational conversation

about a very innocuous subject and the other person deliberately says this crap.

[Name removed]

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[Lars39]

8. Who's got time to be inviting a "witnessing" every time you have a conversation?

That would definitely be feeding their lunacy.

[Name removed]

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[eleny]

15. That's the bottom line, isn't it

Some who are way into religion presume that they have a right to inject their belief at every opportunity.

I was in a crowded grocery line years ago when the checker started grilling customers at her station one by one about how we felt about an issue related to her religion. She wouldn't accept that I didn't want to discuss it. Now this was way back in the early 1980s when things weren't quite so wacky as now. I filed a complaint and the grocery took action so she wouldn't do it again. It was a preview, I guess.

So how do we push back without getting into a lengthy and unwanted discussion? I'm still looking for some easy comebacks that push back gently while establishing a line they can't cross. It's a tough one since it's at their passionate core.

[Lars39]

20. I haven't managed any good comebacks either.

I think it's because my first instinct is to back away slowly as quick as I can. :D

[jody]

46. My reply is "I'm already saved, thank you very much" and absolute refusal to say more. n/t

[smoogatz]

24. You can't reason with crazy people.

They see it as an invitation to debate, which, if you're me, is the last thing you want. So here's how I deal with it:

Them: "I prayed really hard and God found me a house." (Tanslation: "I'm completely fucking crazy.")
Me: "That's nice." (Translation: "What, you didn't even look at any houses? God just 'found' you one? You had nothing to do with it? I could use a new car--could you get God working on that for me, 'cause I fucking hate shopping for cars.")
Them: "You want paper or plastic?" (Translation: "Fuck you--you think I'm fucking crazy.")
Me: "Whatever's easiest." (Translation: "Just hurry it up so I can get the fuck away from you, you loon.")

[ZombieHorde]

37. Funny. nt

[Odin2005]

2. Daniel Dannett has wrote of a taboo that protects religion from being criticized.

Basically, the taboo is that any irrational, nutty BS labeled as a religion is "off limits" of criticism and if you do criticize it you are a "Fundamentalist Atheist".

[eleny]

3. I appreciate Bill Maher's being so vocal about this issue

He calls religion a neurological disorder.

[RC]

31. He is pretty close on that call.

That is the same disorder that conservatives have. The same part of the brain light up in these people under both scenarios.
Both are reality challenged and think they can say anything and be believed.

[Ozymanithrax]

4. This is not new...

Such language was common in the 50's and 60's when I was growing up. But if you read suff from common folk in the 1800', 1700's, and earlier, that was simply the way they spoke to each other and believed.
Janis Joplin - Mercedes Benz

[krabigirl]

5. I agree, and I am tired of it as well.

And after what I read about America's taliban in Amarillo, TX, I don't think I will keep quiet anymore.

[AmandaMae]

9. I agree, and the scary thing is that people now believe the US was founded on Christianity

which it wasn't. But conservatives are using religion to continue deceiving people, and support backward ideas that were never supposed to be a part of government in the first place.

We were discussing God in the context of metaphysics during my philosophy class the other day. We were supposed to rate what was most real on a scale of 1-10. One girl gave God a 10 based on the fact that she could "actually see him and talk to him." I was sitting there staring at her, a bit dumbfounded and scared as she described this. It's one thing to say you believe in God, but to say you actually see and hear him?...sounds more like a delusion to me...

[Lars39]

10. Welcome to DU, AmandaMae!

:toast: They used to put people away for a spell for that kind of behavior.

[Motown_Johnny]

12. You should have asked what he was wearing.

Specifically his shoes, Al Bundy needs to know.

[Odin2005]

14. That girl sounds like a Schizophrenia case.

Welcome! :party:

[ZombieHorde]

38. Welcome to DU, I hope you enjoy your crazy classmate. nt

[DeSwiss]

43. You might want to move to another desk from here on.....

...closer to the door.




to DU.

[Birthmark]

13. Ask them...

...how they know that their neighbors didn't pray to Satan to get them the hell out of the neighborhood.

I sometimes do speak up, politely if possible; impolitely if necessary. I believe this why I'm no longer on the "A" party list. But if you don't care about that...:)

[liberal_at_heart]

16. I think our problem is that we don't respect other people's right to have a different opinion

So what if you think it is nutty. As long as they are not trying to interfere with your freedom then they should be allowed to think whatever they want. My father is evangelical Christian and I am Buddhist. You wouldn't believe the wacky stuff he comes up with. He told my husband who happens to work for a telephone company that telephones are the mark of the beast. I found it wacky and amusing especially considering my husband works for a telephone company. But I respect his freedom to think whatever he wants. What I do have a problem with is when he tries to convert me, my husband, and my children. Then we have serious discussions about respecting our freedom to think what we want to think. But I find it very rude and intolerant that non-religious people seem to think they need to confront religious people and try to prove them wrong. My father does that with me when we get in a religious discussion. He tries to prove my religion wrong. Well I don't appreciate it when religious peopele do that and I don't appreciate it when non-religious people do it either.

[LostInAnomie]

21. We aren't bound to respect idiocy.

That's part of the problem the OP is alluding to. For some reason, when "God" or religion is invoked people feel that their views, opinions, and assertions should not be up for critique. And, for some reason general society seems to just go with the flow. It's ridiculous and self serving for religious people to claim that something good happened for them because they are a person of faith, or God loves them, or because they have lived a more pious life they received a blessing when others didn't. If people are making unfounded and biased assertions we should feel free to call them on it.

[liberal_at_heart]

22. I sure am glad I'm raising my atheist daughter to be more respectful than that

Non-religious people can be just as self righteous, prejudice, intolerant, mean spirited and arrogant as religious people and that is not how I am raising my daughter. Self righteousness, prejudice, intolerance, arrogance and mean spiritness does not belong or help your intellectual argumnet against the religious. In fact it makes you look just like the religous people because you are coming from a place of emotion instead of intellect.

[LostInAnomie]

25. The big difference is...

... that we aren't claiming what we know, say or do is based on some divine and unquestionable source. Atheists base their ideas and assertions on something more substantial than faith and "divine" mandates.

It's no virtue to tolerate the intolerant and ignorant.

[liberal_at_heart]

26. Well like I said I'm glad my daughter doesn't think like that

I'm very proud of the kind of atheist she is. She is very intellectual but she is not so arrogant to think that she is superior to others.

[Silent3]

40. Since when is stating disagreement equivalent to arrogance and acting "superior"?

You obviously think that being more polite is a "superior" approach to take, and aren't afraid to tell others so here on this forum, so aren't you acting "superior" too? Isn't stating that you're glad you're glad daughter is such and such a way, in comparison to another poster here, acting "superior" too?

If someone says that what this economy needs is more tax cuts for the rich, and you state your disagreement about that, is that acting "superior"? Isn't in inherent in practically all disagreement that you wouldn't bother to ever state an opposing opinion unless you thought that opinion has merit over another, that the opinion you state is... once again that terrible word... superior?

Not that there aren't arrogant people out there in the world, and perhaps some that should be called on it, but the issues of arrogance and superiority are a distraction and a smoke screen hiding the real issue -- which topics of disagreement we speak out about and which we politely keep our opinions to ourselves about.

If you don't want anyone to ever speak out in disagreement with the opinions and statements of other people, or you want many limitations and situational caveats of careful diplomacy to prevail regarding when it is "appropriate" to do so, then you'd be proposing an incredibly stifling effect on public discussion. I don't think that's what you want.

If you don't want anyone to ever speak out in disagreement with the opinions and statements of other people, or you want many limitations and situational caveats of careful diplomacy to prevail regarding when it is "appropriate" to do so when the subject is religion, then you're standing up for exactly what the OP -- and myself -- are against, namely giving religion a special exception from criticism that other subject matter doesn't get.

[Odin2005]

55. It is not "arrogant", or "self-righteous" to criticize BS and defend logic and reason.

Too bad you are raising your daughter to follow woolly-headed postmodernist nonsense.

[Go2Peace]

29. They don't want to have "an opinion", they want to control everyone else

There is an arrogance in their faith and a destructive bent towards those who do not believe as they do.

To each his or her own, until you want to fuck up the world with regressive ideas and persecute those who do not believe as you do. They cross that line all the time.

[snagglepuss]

33. I'd agree with you only if a non-believer went on the offensive and put down

someone who didn't bring up their beliefs. However if a believer is going to insert their religious beliefs into a conversation with those who don't share his beliefs that the gloves are off.

[Odin2005]

53. You are entitled to your opinion, you are NOT entitled to your facts.

If people are offended by me stating THE FACTS that is THEIR problem, not mine. I have no reason to respect illogic and ignorance just because it is labed as "religion", that is the taboo Dan Dennett talks about in Breaking the Spell

[wuushew]

17. Communication is a two way street

No one is captive to BS without their consent. Conversations can be deflected, derailed, stopped or otherwise altered in a variety of ways. The thinker in such situation probably is more mentally apt than the pusher in such situations and would most likely win in efforts to control the messaging.

I agree that argument serves no purpose. The conflict itself is "mental candy" to the proselytizer and therefore does not contribute to the extinction of the undesirable behavior.


I dealt with this very recently. My former roommate who is descending even further into religious lunacy now believes the Earth is literally 6,000 years old and that somehow human technological development such as the microprocessor is implausible without a divine mechanism. Moody Bible Institute is literally destroying his cognitive functioning.

[dysfunctional press]

18. ALL religions are "nutty". they're a place of refuge for the weak-minded.

[Ms. Toad]

34. It certainly was a refuge for weak minded people

like Martin Luther King, Jr., Albert Einstein, Rene Descartes, and Ghandi.

There are good, intelligent people for whom religion is an important part of their lives - just like there are good, intelligent people for whom religion plays no role. It is not religion, per se, that is a problem - it is using religion as a weapon or a tool to control others that is a problem.

[Silent3]

41. Exactly what religion do you think Einstein was a follower of?

Yes, he said a few things like "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind", but he had in mind a VERY LOOSE and poetic notion of "religion" in that statement, referring to a kind of awe and sense of wonder about nature and natural laws, nothing that should be interpreted as support for supernatural superstitions, personal deities, or religious dogma.

Einstein was not a member of any church nor a follower of any religious doctrine, and he did not always speak kindly about such things either.

[Ms. Toad]

42. Religion is not necessarily about church

and certainly not about a formalized rubber stamped doctrine. Anyone who believes that religion is that limited probably also uses religion as a sword or a means of control (which I said in my earlier post was where religion runs into problems) or the flip side which is a complete rejection of it as evil.

I was responding to a blanket statement that religions were nutty and which asserted that only the weak minded seek refuge in religion, not to whether only the weak minded seek refuge in a religion of a particular narrow definition. I don't think any of the individuals I mentioned are particularly weak minded, and religion played an important role for each of them - including Einstein, who defined religion in a way that is certainly broader than the box you would draw around it, and expressly declared himself to be a deeply religious man:

>>The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle.

It was the experience of mystery--even if mixed with fear--that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms--it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man.

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature.<< "The World as I See It," Albert Einstein.

[Silent3]

44. Let's keep this conversation clearly in the sense of the OP

Many words have generously flexible usage. I think it's telling that defense of religion often entails appealing to the very loosest and vaguest sense of that word. Since we are not engaged in creating poetic-sounding aphorisms in this thread, however, I don't think appealing to such a broad sense of the word religion helps.

Einstein would not have thanked God for finding him a house or a parking space, unless he did so jokingly. As for your other examples of MLK and Gandhi... these were men who did great things, but like all humans, the weren't without flaws. Even if they took inspiration to do great things from religion, I don't think that stops religion (in the more narrow, less poetic sense) from being classified as a weakness. I'd rather they did what they did without the extraneous baggage of religious dogma going along for the ride.

[Ms. Toad]

45. With all due respect, I was responding neither to you,

nor to the OP.

I was responding to a specific post condemning religion as the refuge of the weak minded. I deliberately chose, as examples, individuals who practiced religion in the organized sense (MLK, Jr., Ghandi, Decartes) and less organized (Einstein), scientists (Decartes and Einstein) and non-scientists (MLK Jr. and Ghandi) (since science and religion are sometimes alleged to be opposites) , and Christian (MLK, Jr. and Descartes) and non-Christian (Einstein and Ghandi).

My point is solely to counter the assertion that religion is solely the refuge of the weak minded by providing examples of people very few would call weak minded to whom religion was important - perhaps even a refuge.

[Silent3]

50. Even given you had a different goal with your post...

...than responding to the OP, I still can't go along with Einstein as an example of a religious person.

[Ms. Toad]

51. When someone tells me they are deeply religious,

I take them at their word. It is not up to me to define religion for someone else. Einstein defined the essence of what religion was to him and labeled himself "a deeply religious man."

I guess it's up to you whether you accept him at his word or not.

Edited to add:

In a sense, it is the same as allowing fundies to define marriage. I have been married for nearly 28 years, even though most fundies, and most states still don't recognize my marriage because my spouse and I happen to both be female. I am not going to cede ownership of the term "religion" to people who would limit it to a narrow, formalized, dogmatic definition any more than I have ever ceded ownership or definition of the term marriage to those same groups.

[Silent3]

58. Except for being playful and poetic with words, I don't think Einstein...

...ever said such a thing about himself.

Emphasis mine in all of the below:

"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist."

Here, in fact, is a quote from Einstein that borders on the kind of post that was made in this thread that you objected to:

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

I would object, just as you do, to anyone making the leap of calling any person a "weak person" based on any one trait, whether you consider that trait itself a weakness or not. Everyone has weaknesses and strengths. Nevertheless, the sense of the post made by dysfunctional press would in no way have anything to do with Einstein.

For one thing, the poster said "ALL religions are 'nutty'". Well, regardless of whether you favor using a very broad, very loose and poetic meaning of "religious" in order to call Einstein a "religious" person, Einstein still didn't belong to any particular religion that could be considered a member of the set of "ALL religions".

[Ms. Toad]

59. I gave you a direct quote, and the source from which it was taken. n/t

[Silent3]

60. So what?

It still has nothing to do with the post you replied to and Einstein. No relevance at all.

[Ms. Toad]

62. Since you seem not to be able to read

Here, in Einstein's own words, is his definition of religion and his assertion that he is a deeply religious man - as he defines religious:

>>It was the experience of mystery--even if mixed with fear--that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms--it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man.<<

If you insist on imposing your definition of religion on others, a lot of people widely considered religious would also be excluded. Einstein defined religion, and declared himself to be deeply religious. It is no my right, or yours, to take that away from him just because you prefer a different definition of religion.

[Silent3]

63. But words have contexts...

...and the context here does not warrant bringing up Einstein as an example. He may have been religious (again, in a very loose sense) but without having a religion. dysfunctional press commented on religions, not religiousness, nor "religious attitude", so no matter how you spin it, bringing up Einstein here is a non sequitur.

This has nothing to do with me "imposing" a single thing on you, dysfunctional press, or Einstein.

[Silent3]

61. Another quote from Einstein

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

- Albert Einstein, letter to an atheist (1954), quoted in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman

Overstated though that post was about religion being for the weak, it clearly had not a thing to do with someone like Einstein who has "unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it" as the closest thing to what might loosely be called religion.

Let's try rephrasing dysfunctional press's post in those terms:

Unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it is "nutty". It is a place of refuge for the weak-minded.

So, do you really think what dysfunctional press said can really be construed to have meant THAT in addition to a general condemnation of religion, making Einstein a good counter example to that?

Get real.

[DeSwiss]

52. Religion is BULLSHIT!!!! n/t

[Ms. Toad]

54. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. n/t

[DeSwiss]

56. But it wasn't always that way. Religion (Christians) used to kill people like me. n/t

[Ms. Toad]

57. And me - there is a statue of one of my religious ancestors

in front of the Massachusetts State House - commemorating her hanging because, even though she was religious, her religion wasn't the "right" religion. The edicts of one religion or another have been used to justify all sorts of atrocities. That doesn't make the atrocities acceptable, nor do the actions of individual religions mean that all religion is inherently evil.

I have no desire to impose religion (whatever the definition) on anyone. You believe it is BS - that is fine with me.

[PassingFair]

19. There's a woman in my office who prays with/for people.

I LIKE her, but it's getting on my nerves.

She sits right behind me, and one of the other
women is constantly coming over and asking to
pray with her, because it "works" to help her
achieve whatever bullshit athletic "goals" she
has set for herself at her gym.

This is becoming a regular thing. Last Monday
the "prayee" told the "pray-er" that the last prayer
"didn't work".


I told her not to worry, that "he" might have
more pressing issues like EARTHQUAKES and such
to worry about, and that the "pray-er" probably
shouldn't be bothering him when people are actually
dying somewhere.

Their laughs were NOT heartfelt.

[DeSwiss]

49. Or.....

...it could be his way of telling her to go to Haiti or Chile and get her exercise helping others.

- At least that could be one interpretation.

[TexasObserver]

23. "Prosperity Christianity" is the name for it.

God wants you to be rich (so you can pay tithes to your friendly Christian Capitalist Minister).

It's a legal ponzi scheme where your prosperity reflects God's love for you. Just be sure to ship your ten percent for "the Lord's work."

[Go2Peace]

30. It is just a mixture the free market mantra and Christian cultism

It reflects little about Christianity itself. They really don't care what the Bible says, they make up their own "gospel".

[MicaelS]

27. Do you speak out...

When people tell their astrological sign, ask yours and start talking about astrology?

When someone states that vaccinations cause autism, and they have not, and never will have their children vaccinated?

When someone starts talking about 9/11 being a giant conspiracy by the US government?

When someone claims they've been abducted by aliens?

They're plenty of things that other people talk quite seriously, and other people consider utter nonsense. I'm sure you believe in one or two things that would make most other people consider you a nut. Note that above I carefully avoided anything having to do with race, gender or sexual orientation. The point being to all this, is that if you spend your time speaking out every time someone makes what you think is a crackpot statement, you're going to alienate a lot of people. Sometimes it's just best to live and let live.

[eleny]

28. Do we ignore people like this? ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x522591

To me, this is where live and let live can lead.

[MicaelS]

35. People like that, no, absolutely not, but

Notice I said sometimes. Not always.

[eleny]

36. And I'm ready for a zero tolerance policy because that is where being nice leads

Live and let live only feeds the beast. Enough is enough.

[MicaelS]

39. Fine, then expect zero tolerance toward any beliefs

You have that are considered to be be fringe, marginal or crackpot challenged as such by others.

[JoeyT]

48. I certainly do.

Every single one of those leads to real world problems. In some cases the problems are fatal for people that aren't even involved with them. Anti-vaxxers for example have reintroduced diseases that were on the verge of eradication. By not vaccinating their own kids and encouraging others to do the same they've destroyed herd immunity, so now they're putting other peoples' children at risk if they can't get vaccinated for medical reasons. (Allergies, auto-immune disorders, etc)

I've got no problem speaking out about things that are silly, and neither should anyone else. Frankly, if you don't shut most of those people down quickly they're intolerable to be around anyway. Anti-vaxxers and truthers especially have trouble talking about anything that ISN'T truther/anti-vaxx stuff. It's a strange world when having your ideas challenged is an insult equal to or greater than being punched in the face.

To be perfectly honest, if I'm going around spouting anything like any of the stuff you listed I hope someone sits me down and says "Look man, you're being an idiot. Here's why."

[panzerfaust]

32. Mainstream Protestant denominations and Roman Catholicism are shrinking and fragmenting in the USA

Whilst at the same time Pentacostal, Millenarian, and a wide variety of Anabaptist derived faiths (as well as completely fringe sects) are growing rapidly.

Given just a little more time, we may see a return to the religious wars similar to those from the 10th to the 17th centuries (and the latter half of the 20th and first bit of the 21st) - but we will get to see these conflicts up close right here in the Current Homeland of Christendom.

No one can hate Christians, like another Christian of a different sect.



Cathars (center, burning at the stake) were complaining about the moral, spiritual and political corruption of The Church - and were seeking a return to what they saw as the early Church. Saint Dominic (dour guy on the right, and, I think, it is also he shown kissing Pope-ass on the left{1}) went to preach to them and lead them back from Heresy.

However, as they proved resistant to his preaching, he decided that they should all simply be killed. Eventually Pope Innocent the Third (in the Pope hat, on the left) agreed and preached a Crusade against the Cathars. The only Crusade which was not (at least in theory) directed against Islam, and the only Crusade carried out in western Europe.

Perhaps up to half a million Cathars (and their non-heretical Catholic sympathizers) were slaughtered in the Crusade. After this, the Inquisition moved in and over the next century completed the extermination.

Once again, the Holy Mother Church proved the value and effectiveness of torture, murder, and mass-murder in expressing the Love of Christ.

Pacis Deus exsisto vobis - ut vos sentio tepidus diligo Christus ut vos exuro procul talea
(The peace of God be with you - as you feel the warm love of Christ as you burn at the stake{2})

----------------
{1} Though it may be a different psychotic sycophant.
{2} Magis vel minor: As I did get a "D" in Latin in junior-high

[WVRICK13]

47. I Don't Defer To Religion

anymore than I would defer to someone talking about Spiderman saving them. Fantasy is fantasy and I have to let them know how I feel about it. My cousin, who is also a priest, makes comments about this or that ceremony and I usually tell him to keep his delusions to himself.

[sam sarrha]

64. that is TV preachers turning Xianity into a Cargo Cult... it actually works, it is a metaphysical

method.. AKA white magic. really easy to do.. they use it to convince poor ignorant people to send what money they have left to crooks posing as preachers. but they do get the little bottle of oil to ward off witches and curses.. for free.! with a $200 donation

one lady called in and said that after she $200 donation she got 1000's of dollar$ back and every time she goes to Walmart god saves her a parking spot right up front by the door.!! probably the Preacher's Mistress..