God's Law or Man's Law?

[MichaelHarris]

Groups protest decision not to re-enroll child of lesbians
Gay and lesbian groups are attacking a decision by the archdiocese of Denver, Colorado, not to re-enroll a child in a Catholic school in Boulder, Colorado, next year because the child's parents are lesbians. http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/08/colorado.lesbians.church/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn

Is the Bible the word of God or the words of man? Does God or mortal man condemn Lesbianism? I challenge every Catholic DUer to find the passage condemning Lesbianism in the Bible. When you fail to find it ask yourself, are these Gods rules or the rules of mortal man? Finally ask yourself, why do I continue putting money in the gold plate at the end of the service?

Once upon a time you believed in fairy tales, now you see the truth. There is no word of God, there is only the rules of mortal man.

[vadawg]

1. you forgot laws of the church

which is the interpretation of gods law, which is what every person and group does.

[Fumesucker]

2. 299,792,458 m/s, it's God's law..

[LeftHander]

65. interpetation of a outdated social control mechanism

Religion is out of step with humanity.

[ZombieHorde]

3. Catholics are not going to question their church's bigotry because they are cool with the bigotry.

If they did not like it, they would leave.

The average adult Catholic in the US is educated enough to know the RCC spends money on spreading hate. The average adult Catholic in the US is also educated enough to know many other churches exist in which they can attend.

They just don't give a shit.

[vadawg]

6. thing you have to remember as well is that going to a different church is like asking a muslim to

attend temple, just because there are similarities between the churches does not mean they are the same thing, i could no more attend a baptist or lutheran church as i could a mosque and still keep my faith. Many people do change faiths but its not like changing your brand of detergent..

[ZombieHorde]

8. If the Catholic church represents one's faith, and the RCC teaches homosexuality is evil,

then that person believes homosexuality is evil.

If one does not believe homosexuality is evil, and the RCC teaches homosexuality is evil, then the RCC does not represent the person's faith.

[vadawg]

11. lets put it in terms you may understand better, your country might do stuff you dont like but its

still your country, your family might do stuff you hate but they are still your family, your church might do stuff you disagree with or hate but its still your church, faith is not just one thing or one policy or one family member, you can disagree with parts of your church or country or family but that dosent mean you abandon the whole...

[Tyo]

64. So you don't like some of the stuff they do....

So are you protesting? Are you picketing? Are you calling your priest out when he says hateful things or crosses the line between church and state? Are you writing to your bishop to protest your church's support of injustice and bigotry? This would be the religious version of what a patriot does when his or her country is in the wrong. Or are you letting them get away with it because you personally are not like that and that's all that matters. Sorry, but by your presence at mass and your financial contributions you validate and support their bigotry whether you approve of it or not. It's called being an enabler.

[ZombieHorde]

67. If I had a relative who worked hard keeping child molesters on the street, believed women

are inferior to men, and worked hard and spent a lot of money repressing the rights of gay people, I would not give that relative any money. I don't think I would associate with such a relative.

Leaving a country can be very difficult. You are not just leaving your country, you are leaving your career and loved ones as well. The country you go to may not accept you as a citizen.

Would you still defend the RCC if the RCC preached against black straight men?

[LAGC]

72. What makes religion so special?

Is it just the sense of tradition that you feel obligated to remain part of your club by virtue of being born into it? You make it sound like one's religion is as set in stone from birth and unchangable as one's skin color. All religion is is a set of IDEAS, and ideas can be changed and discarded if one doesn't agree with them.

What is it about the Catholic Church that you like? More than the parts you don't like?

[Toasterlad]

77. Your Country Is a Democracy. You Have a Vote In How It Is Goverened

The church is not a democracy. You have no say in how it is goverened, or what it's policies are.

Even leaving aside the actual physical and financial hardships that moving out of a country would entail that leaving a church would not, your analogy is patently ridiculous.

[MichaelHarris]

15. faith only asks one thing of you

it's the same for every Christian faith. What difference does the shape of the steeple matter? Do you accept Jesus as your saviour, that's the only question put forth. the shape of the building means nothing, the decorations are unnecessary. If you attend a church that promotes hatred and bigotry AND you put money in that plate then you also pay for that hate.

I will take it one step further. If homosexuality was so important to God and his people why did he not make it a commandment? Was Moses gay, maybe he dropped that tablet on the way down the mountain.

[vadawg]

16. nope shows you dont understand the church, as i said i could no more attend mosque

as attend another christian faith, people have left the church for many different reasons but its not a simple matter of all the christian churches are the same, take the sacraments frinstance...

[MichaelHarris]

17. I don't have to

understand the church. Faith is not something found in a mortal man or a church. many faiths fail to realize that.

[vadawg]

18. in your opinion that is... for many faith is found inside them and their churches

but i guess you are to enlightened to see that...

[MichaelHarris]

20. Yes

I am that enlightened. Religion needs no steeple, for some the church has become the faith. God is no longer at home.

[vadawg]

22. yeah okay, i guess there is no point explaining the differences between the churches then

but you are wrong when you assume that people can move between denominations easily...

[MichaelHarris]

26. no

you don't need to explain anything to me. I am able to think for myself.

[vadawg]

27. obviously that does not help you understand that the different churches are different

as you seem to think that a catholic is a baptist is a lutheran etc etc

[MichaelHarris]

29. believe me

I understand religion very, very well.

[vadawg]

31. from your posts i would say you do not, as you seem to think that all christian churches are the sam

same...so obviously you dont know as much as you think..

[MichaelHarris]

32. I do

and have done research in Catholicism for a number of years.

[vadawg]

35. and yet you think catholics should just rebadge to other churches

no i dont think you know catholism and its sacraments at all..

[MichaelHarris]

40. the

truth is you are free to think what ever you like, well maybe. Me, I know my freedom. The Pueblo Indians in 1680 also knew their freedoms. No, I don't think you actually have many freedoms unless the church gives them to you. The Pueblos revolted for their freedoms in 1680, will you ever fight for yours?

You see, I may know even more than you about the Catholic church.

[vadawg]

43. you may know some history but you dont understand faith and you probuably never will

or the difference between the catholic church and the other christian churches...

[MichaelHarris]

55. when your

ignorance shows do you always attack? What I mean to say is, when history and facts are so compelling and you are faced with them do you always attack the messenger? Are any of the facts I've mentioned wrong? did the church in Colorado decide to deny these people entry? Did the church deny communion to John Kerry? Does the church have an ongoing scandal concerning male prostitution? Does the church have a history of child molestation? Are any of my facts wrong?

Is my history of the church wrong? The only thing wrong here is called blind-faith, and you my friend have it bad.

[Toasterlad]

78. If You Belong To the Catholic Church, You Are a Member Of Hate Group.

Your silly justifications are meaningless.

[rug]

86. Biden belongs to a Hate Group?

Who knew?

[darkstar3]

88. Yup.

And so did the Kennedys. In fact, LOTS of politicians and just regular average joes belong to hate groups right now and don't even know it. Sad for them, sad for us all.

[rug]

89. Biden must be remarkably stupid.

Why don't you email him a shard of your enlightenment.

[darkstar3]

91. You can accuse him of stupidity if you like,

but only if you first admit to it yourself. After all, you are a member of the same organization, are you not?

Let's make this clear: Any organization that mainlines hate or intolerance for any group, no matter the level of violence they use or encourage, is a hate group. The Church qualifies for its sheer amount of misogyny and homophobia, and they are unfortunately not alone.

[rug]

92. It's you who said Biden belongs to a hate group and doesn't know it.

If he's not stupid are you saying it's intentional?

[darkstar3]

94. Ignorance and stupidity are mutually exclusive.

Biden may be ignorant of the fact that he belongs to a hate group, just as so many other people suffer from the same ignorance. When there are no torches, pitchforks, or burning crosses, it takes a little while to see through the policies of the group to the only logical and hateful end. Many never take that mental journey, and thus ride along with the Church's intolerance in a state of ignorant bliss. Woe to them for being blind, and woe to the rest of us for having to deal with the continued existence of a hate group.

[rug]

96. Not in your case.

[darkstar3]

97. How mature,

not to mention a wonderful example of that hateful nature I was talking about. Tell me, did being a member of a hate group make you this hateful, or did you become a member of a hate group BECAUSE you were this hateful?

[rug]

100. Actually, it began when I first encountered your posts.

[darkstar3]

101. Mildly clever, but entirely false,

considering I watched you spew hate and bile here for years before joining up.

[rug]

103. Ah yes, you and your "others".

You all must have had a blast.

[darkstar3]

105. Wow,

so now you're so pissed off you can't even make sense? What "others" could you POSSIBLY be referring to, considering that word never made it into my post?

[rug]

107. You explained it all in #93. Or was that written by one of them?

:crazy:

[darkstar3]

109. That was a separate conversational topic.

I like to keep my subthreads separated from each other, thank you. It cuts down on confusion and the dodging of answers.

BTW: You can imply all you want that I'm somehow hearing voices or otherwise crazy, but with every insulting post you make you only show yourself to be more unbalanced and hateful to the rest of the people who read this thread. Good luck being taken seriously in the future.

[rug]

110. Ditto.

[darkstar3]

112. Sure, that makes sense. n/t

[rug]

114. Ditto.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

68. If I may interject

You seem to want MichaelHarris to agree with your view of religion, then tells him he doesn't understand when he won't agree with your definition. That people should have a personal definition of faith is his point (as I see it), so you're basically telling him that his point of view isn't valid unless he accepts things as you define them.

[Dorian Gray]

61. It may be that simplistic to someone who does not believe that

Christ is God, but there are significant differences between various Christian sects, and those differences are difficult to overcome if one wants to switch.

Even within the Catholic Church, each congregation has it's own feel. There are many gay friendly churches within the Catholic Church. (Mine is one of them! There are Gay and Lesbian outreach programs, and much of our congregation, including lectors, the organist, and other church leaders) are gay. My church is St. Augustine in Park Slope, Brooklyn.

The issue is much more complicated than Gay = the EVIL! I don't think any priest (at least any priest that I know personally) would be think of gay and lesbian individuals in such a way. I think that the fact that our congregation has a high number of gay and lesbian congregants also shows that the issue isn't so simple. There is something about Roman Catholicism that attracts many liberal adherents, and to diminish the faith of people by claiming that one steeple is the same as any other is short-sighted.

Our church in no way promotes hatred and bigotry. But if it makes you feel better to hate Catholicism by convincing yourself that it is a simple case of all Catholicism = Gay Bigotry/hatred, then go for it.

[LAGC]

73. What about the Church leadership though?

Doesn't it ever strike you as problematic that your tithings and donations to your local Catholic Church are being funnelled to the Vatican where its right-wing policies are being promoted and enforced? Sure, there may be liberal Catholic churches, but the overall hierarchy is very, very conservative.

Just follow the money...

[iris27]

83. vadawg, you do know there are splinter Catholic groups not accepted by Rome, right?

No one's asking you to go Pentacostal and learn a whole new liturgy. You can stop funding the hate and still attend a church that believes in transubstantiation.

[trotsky]

58. I wouldn't go that far.

I think plenty of Catholics hate bigotry and support traditional Democratic ideals (reproductive choice, secular laws, etc.). However, they rationalize their support of an institution that actively promotes bigotry and works AGAINST those things because oh, well, their local church or diocese is different. Never mind that they are directly and indirectly supporting the corrupt, rotten head in Rome.

Many have said this, but if there are truly as many liberals in among Catholics as we are told, if they ALL got up and left their church, we would see instantaneous change.

[AlecBGreen]

66. good point trotsky

"...if there are truly as many liberals in among Catholics as we are told, if they ALL got up and left their church, we would see instantaneous change."

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

4. I don't trust either of them.

[msongs]

5. ummm the "laws of god" are actually written by men....& maybe a tiny # of women nt

[LiberalFighter]

9. If those biblical laws had been written even by a few women there would be many missing.

Therefore, not likely written by any sane woman.

[jotsy]

7. As a student of faith, I am free from the confines of religious doctrine.

I contend it is God that's made in the image of man, not the other way around.

I dare say any deity deemed deserving wouldn't condone the shedding of innocent blood. Any act of war ever committed in the name of God has been a lie.

[LiberalFighter]

10. Unfortunately, state or federal law has no jurisdiction in this instance.

Catholics can make up any law they want in this regard that does not conflict with state or federal law.

[Guilded Lilly]

12. Any written law is written by man's hand.

Protesting the Catholic school will bring attention to the blindess but won't really change anything.

The parents of this child should be glad they have other options than to send their child to such a narrow, shallow, ugly-souled school.

[MichaelHarris]

19. great point, now

if the biblical laws are written by mortal men are they infallible? Can they make mistakes? We are told only God is infallible, if the men who wrote the Bible are also infallible then who actually is God, the being who passed on the laws or the men who recorded them? Point is, nothing is infallible, we've given up on peace and love and chosen judgment and hate based on the words of mortal men.

[vadawg]

21. nope not only god is infallible, to faithfull catholics the pope is infallible when he speaks ex

cathedra, you dont seem to realise that people can have a faith that is different to yours and no less viable or strong...

[MichaelHarris]

28. I'm not going to engage

in your challenge of faith, I see no point. You do seen to want to continue some discussion so here is a question. If the Denver Archdiocese bans this family because of their lesbianism do you, as a Catholic support the church or this family? If the Pope is infallible then are we to assume his "arms" are also infallible?

Note: I am not going to argue Catholicism with you, my wife has been a Catholic her entire life. She chose a new church when John Kerry was being denied communion in this same diocese.

[vadawg]

36. to answer your question, even when the church is wrong its still my church

catholism isnt just about going to mass once a week, as i stated its about faith, its about the sacraments, its about beliefs, there will be times i will disagree with the church but i was born catholic and i will die catholic as will many others... But i get the impression your more about bashing catholics than understanding why they remain catholic..

[MichaelHarris]

41. There is not

one post of mine bashing Catholics, you wanted that, you fought for that, but I didn't indulge you. I merely pointed out that those who put their gold into the pot of intolerance pay for that intolerance. That can be said for almost any organized religion. You may not like the story, you may not like the news, you may even attack those who discuss it. What you'll never be able to do is attack it's truth. Priests have indulged in young boys, this Lesbian couple has been denied the opportunity to educate their child in the Catholic faith, and Ted Haggart snorted coke off the butt of a mail hooker. Hypocritical religions are an industry and business is good.

What matters here is your commitment to continue paying for it. No, no one here bashed you, as much as you wanted it to be so it never happened. Something did happen however. those who read this thread know you a little better now.

[Better Today]

45. Wow, y'all are pretty gullible then, huh?

[vadawg]

48. no more so than muslims, budhists, taoists, shintoists, hindus, sikhs, wiccans, jews

pagans, or any other people who have a belief system

[Better Today]

50. I beg to differ, seems you're asked to believe that a man is infallible,

I don't recall that in any other religion. I guess there are some sects of Muslims that have supreme leaders.

Otherwise, I'd say your hope of grouping all religions under the same level of gullibility fails miserably.

That being said, I do not respect any religion that looks to imaginary, pissed off daddies in the sky for guidance.

[vadawg]

51. thats the whole point of belief and faith, some people believe in praying five times a day

some in lighting candles, some to dead ancestors, some whilst wearing pointy hats and dancing in the woods, everyone has their own beliefs and faith, none more dumb than any others...

[Better Today]

53. well +2 for recognizing they are all stupid, (dumb means mute, they certainly aren't that)

[MichaelHarris]

56. as I pointed out already to you

the OP is not about muslims, budhists, taoists, shintoists, hindus, sikhs, wiccans, jews, denying an education to this child, it is the Catholic church denying this child.

[Vehl]

80. nope

Hindus dont have a book with the "word of god"...they dont have any scripture that is considered central to our religion(a collection of schools of thought...from polytheism, to monotheism to atheism)either. so pls dont bunch most of the eastern religions with the middle eastern ones :)


PS : most of the eastern religion do not have/enforce any "religious law".

[Guilded Lilly]

30. I agree.

"Point is, nothing is infallible, we've given up on peace and love and chosen judgment and hate based on the words of mortal men."

What we have been told and what we have read, has all been stated/written by man.
The direct line to God, or Goddess (small smile) goes from the soul to that *power*. Middle men tend to screw up a lot of things in the name of any specific, ultimate, spiritual power.

[saltpoint]

13. I think whoever is in charge of the public relations arm of the Catholic

Church should probably not have their contract renewed.

One of the most effective ways of not being regarded as a clueless asshole is not to act like one.

My strong hunch is that if this child's parents in fact love their child, offering support and protection and investment in emotional well-being, the Galilean would bless that parenting.

[bridgit]

14. Ah! Well then - chock me in the shallow water

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDl3bdE3YQA

[TexasObserver]

23. Since no one knows God's law, there's only man's law.

By any rational approach, if there is a God and that God has laws, he has chosen not to communicate them to us in a useful manner.

[vadawg]

24. unless you consider that mayby he did when he gave them to moses

or when he talked to mohammad, or to buddha, to say we dont know gods laws only means that you dont have faith that any of the laws passed on by any religion are from god, but there are a lot of people who believe they are gods laws, in fact the majority of the planet...

[TexasObserver]

33. No, because that wouldn't be a rational or useful manner to communicate with us.

The very notion that a God would impart this knowledge on one lone goat herder, and tell him to pass it on is utter nonsense.

[vadawg]

37. and yet this lone goat herder led his people, you sound like the crazies and the hes only a

community organiser thing, i guess it would be foolish to pass it onto buddah as well, or mohammad as i notice you didnt address that point, what about other religious leaders...

[MichaelHarris]

42. Did my

original post address Buddha and his denial of an education for the child of a Lesbian couple? See how that works? When you don't want to address your own faith's failings you try to put the shoe on another. It was cute but alas, it failed.

[vadawg]

44. nope its not the faiths failing, its mans failing... theres a big difference

but im not sure you understand what faith actually is...

[Better Today]

47. Didn't you say upthread that the Pope isn't infallible? Now you're confusing yourself.

Is the Pope against the refusal to accept lesbians into the church? (We know he doesn't mind gay pedophiles, because we know how many cover-ups have been done on their behalf.)

[vadawg]

49. nope i siad when hes ex cathedra then he is infallible... not so much at other times

[Better Today]

52. So why do you ignore LDS, and Joseph Smith, your god spoke

to him most recently and most thoroughly? And why do you cleave to a belief in catholicism and yet seem to adhere to the belief that all these other religious leaders were mouths and scribes for god's words? Why would you feel as though you were being a bad person to adhere to these more recent comments from god?

BTW if you cleave to Moses as the scribe for god, you're actually Jewish, as a Christian, you should believe only in the new teachings that came from Jesus, not the Old Testament which is the Jewish halve of the Bible. And clearly what Jesus says god says is entirely different than what Moses says god says.

[vadawg]

54. no i am a catholic, therefore i follow the teachings of my church

thats the whole point of being a catholic, you do realise that christians in general also read the old testament its not just jews...

[TexasObserver]

60. So, you actually believe the former Nazi, now pope, is God's voice on earth?

Upon what do you base that proposition?

Did God talk to you?

[TexasObserver]

59. Just because understanding is beyond your reach doesn't make it illogical.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

74. You're right. It's all peoples' words they wrote down.

Maybe they were schizophrenic. Maybe they had some psychedelic shrooms in their salad that sent them on a trip.

These people should read what Freud said about religion. Man invented god to meet his psychological needs for a protective sky daddy. Freud also wrote a piece called "Religious Faith as an Expression of Neurosis".

[Better Today]

46. Well said.

[Confusious]

38. I bring you 15 laws.....

ooppss................crack!

10, 10 Laws for all to hear and obey!

[vadawg]

39. rofl, im not sure if budha got a fax and mohammad got emails :)

[iris27]

82. Gotta love

Mel Brooks!

[BolivarianHero]

25. Who cares?

They have boys to rape with their time.

[bamacrat]

34. Man wrote the Bible so therefore .....

It is man's law.

They interpreted God? Ok. They believe that but not that creatures evolved over billions of years or that the earth was created more than 10,000 years ago.

[tavalon]

57. Whether there is a god or not, we do a damn poor job of representing him or her

[rug]

62. There's nothing in the bible condemning crystal meth. What's your point?

[darkstar3]

69. Seriously?

You're comparing crystal meth to homosexuality? :wtf:

[rug]

70. You have exquisite reading skills.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[darkstar3]

76. If you're NOT

comparing crystal meth and homosexuality, then perhaps you could elaborate.

[rug]

84. Perhaps you want to create another deleted subthread.

Just can't control yourself, can you.

[darkstar3]

87. YOU, master of bile, think to lecture me on self-control?

Perhaps instead of diverting from the subject, you could explain your incredibly offensive post.

[rug]

90. Do you want me to prove a negative?

It's your assertion and your inference.

Go on, repost your drivel from the deleted thread. Don't forget the namecalling.

[darkstar3]

93. What negative?

It's right there in black and white. On a thread regarding the scriptural stance on homosexuality, you posted the scriptural stance on crystal meth as if it were just part of the conversation. You drew a parallel between homosexuality and crystal meth, when you could easily have chosen any other example, and now I would like for you to explain why.

Let's be clear: Crystal meth is a destructive and sometimes lethal drug that is highly addictive and banned in every state in the union, for good reason. By drawing a parallel between that, and homosexuality, you tread on very dangerous ground. Elaboration on your part is required in order for the rest of us to understand that you were NOT referring to homosexuality as a destructive and sometimes lethal practice that should be banned.

Or you can simply post another sarcastic one-liner, and leave the rest of us to wonder about your motives for throwing out such a possibly heinous post and refusing to elaborate.

[rug]

95. Who is the "us" you consistently allude to?

Elaboration on your part is required.

[darkstar3]

98. For starters,

myself and Chadwick, both of whom were offended by your post, and I highly suspect that there are other readers in the same boat.

You're diverting again. Elaboration on your part is still required.

[rug]

99. Not at all. It's your inference.

Why don't you take a consensus of the suspected other readers and explain your inference.

Perhaps with rational input it won't be deleted.

[darkstar3]

102. I have explained everything in #93.

Your refusal to elaborate betrays more of your meaning than anyone would need to infer from your original post. The longer you avoid explaining your obvious implication (even if just to say it was an accident and you meant something else), the worse you look.

[rug]

104. And sometimes crystal meth is just crystal meth.

Interesting, though creepy, imagination you have.

[darkstar3]

106. Only when the conversation is about crystal meth. This one wasn't. n/t

[rug]

108. No, it was about nonscriptural prohibition, a point you missed.

[darkstar3]

111. And the point you continue to dodge is simple:

Scripture fails to forbid an incredible number of things, and you could have chosen from any one of them. The fact that you chose crystal meth is telling, and not in a good way, unless of course you have some explanation as to why crystal meth popped into your mind.

It's just like when a congresscritter (I think it was Santorum) stood on the floor of the Senate and stated that legalizing homosexual marriage would lead to people marrying their box turtles. He drew a parallel between homosexuality and bestiality. No one here let him get away with it, and for good reason. He could have chosen many different arguments against homosexual marriage that DIDN'T draw parallels between homosexuality and bestiality, but because the two were so obviously inextricably linked in his mind as deviant behavior the thought of avoiding the box turtle reference never occurred to him.

You made the implication, not me. I have asked you repeatedly to explain yourself, in the hopes that you would at least TRY to say it was an accidental implication and that you meant something completely different that I can't see. You have outright refused to do so, and continue to do everything within your meager power to divert the topic away from your original statement. These actions speak much louder than your original words.

[rug]

113. Feel free to substitute any prohibition you want that is not offensive.

Although I suspect whatever prohibition stated you would call homophobic.

Now why did Santorum of all people pop into your mind?

[darkstar3]

115. Perhaps because Santorum's stupidity in the debate on homosexuality

is widely recognizable and easily memorable to everyone here.

And again, this isn't about me, it's about your parallel between homosexuality and crystal meth. I will no longer answer your diversions. You have shown that you do not wish to explain yourself and are therefore comfortable with what your original statement implies.

[rug]

116. Except this wasn't a debate about homosexuality.

It was about Man's law versus God's Law.

BTW, it was your inference and not my implication.

And a profound thank you for never posting to me again, praise God!

[darkstar3]

117. Reading is fundamental.

[rug]

118. There you are again. This convinces me there is no god.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

81. I have seen some bullshit from you before, but that's just beyond the pale.

You, sir, disgust me.

[rug]

85. Elaborate Chadwick.

Preferably without your usual bullshit.

[Deep13]

63. Irrelevant. No one has a right to force his religious rules on others. nt

[Jim__]

75. "... there is only the rules of mortal man."

Maybe we should just repeal gravity. It tends to bring me down.

[Deep13]

79. I prefer Woodchuck Law.

Thou shalt dig holes!