What if Mary had said No

[conscious evolution]

Would people be praying to the Virgin Sally?

[Sultana]

1. Hahahahahahha

[hedgehog]

2. How do we know that Mary was the first woman asked? Or for that

matter, was Abram the first one asked?

[TexasProgresive]

5. I notice your valid point is ignored

Some people are truly clever others just imagine they are.

[DeSwiss]

14. Mary wasn't the first one asked.....

...it was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_%28mother_of_Buddha%29">Maya (which also translates to http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Maya">Mary), Siddhārtha Gautama, The Buddha's mommy. Only in her case instead of a visit by an angel from Yahweh, she dreamt of the divine Bodhisattva on a white elephant, touching her side. And then she became pregnant. Buddha's birth was heralded by signs and wonders in the heavens. Later, Maya left her home and came to have a rest at a beautiful flower garden where she gave birth. And upon Buddha's birth, heavenly beings (angels or devas) announced the newborn as "savior" of the world. And sages came to visit the newborn and make prophecies of the Buddha's future.

This religious story is an allegory. An astrological allegory. The Jesus, Mary & Joseph version of this story is another iteration. One which has been ascribed by religious/philosophical scholars as having come to Christianity via the http://www.archive.org/details/biblemythsandthe00doanuoft">Essenes and whose story of Jesus' birth came well after Buddha's story (who was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha">was born in 563 BCE), and had been recorded and most likely syncretistically absorbed into other religious beliefs. Thus ending up within the ranks of Christian dogma.

- Ultimately, Mary's story is one that had been replicated by several other ancient religions before Christianity. It is one more knock-off of similar astrologically and allegorically-themed religious stories ripped by the Christian founders, who likely found that it made "religious conversions" a lot easier when the stories and the characters in them, seemed familiar....


"The Halo You See Behind
Jesus' Head -- Is The Sun"
http://www.archive.org/details/biblemythsandthe00doanuoft">

[ironbark]

20. "Whenever there is decay of righteousness...

and there is exaltation of unrighteousness, then I Myself come forth...”


“I am born from age to age."

Surangama Sutra, Gautama Buddha

[hedgehog]

21. I have a problem wrapping my head around that, but then who am i to

put a limit on God?

Namaste and shalom!

[ironbark]

22. One interpretation might be

that the consciousness that manifested in Siddhattha
is the same as that which manifested in Jesus.

And all the others “from age to age”

?
Gidday… As-Salamu 'Alaykum

[hedgehog]

23. Neat

[hedgehog]

28. I forgot to tell you - years ago I challenged my religious ed

students to replace the common image of God the Father (Creator) with this

[MurrayDelph]

3. Or would it have been

the virgin Leda?

[azurnoir]

4. I kinda like the virgin debbi

not Deborah

[Silent3]

6. It's hard to imagine the Biblical God, even NT vs. OT...

...dealing very well with rejection. :nuke:

[conscious evolution]

7. He definitely has a thing

for smiting people.

[beam me up scottie]

8. Depends what time the bar closed. nt

[conscious evolution]

9. Are you suggesting

god wears beer goggles?
Well,his son did like making wine.And you know what they say-The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Could that be why he threw Adam and Eve out of the garden?He didn't like the competition for his bootlegging business?

[beam me up scottie]

10. That makes sense.

I live in bootleg country, some of these guys would sell out their own mother if they felt threatened.

Then there's the whole problem with family members drinking too much of the prophets...

[ChadwickHenryWard]

11. I'm not aware consent entered into it.

It's been along time since I've heard the story, but as I recall it was a case of Celestial Rape. Which is not unique to Christianity, by the way. Greek and Roman gods impregnated virgins all the time. Romulus and Remus, the legendary founders of Rome, were father by Mars and borne by a Vestal Virgina named Rhea Silvia.

[hedgehog]

12. NO- Mary gave consent - nor was there any hint of sexual activity

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,
27
to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary.
28
And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."
29
But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.
30
Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31
Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.
32
He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father,
33
and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
34
But Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?"
35
And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
36
And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
37
for nothing will be impossible for God."
38
Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her.
39
During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah,
40
where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth.
41
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,
42
cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
43
And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44
For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
45
Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."
46
And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47
my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
48
For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
49
The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
50
His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him.
51
He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.
52
He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly.
53
The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty.
54
He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy,
55
according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever."


If it had been rape, it wouldn't have been a Virgin birth. Now, before you protest that the Gospel account can't be taken as accurate, I put it to you that if you're going to criticize the story, you've got to go to the source.

As a matter of fact, Medieval theologians were so adamant about the lack of sexual activity that they went so far as to claim that when the Christ was born, Mary retained an unruptured hymen.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

15. I'm sorry, but that doesn't contradict my point in any way.

While it was clear that Mary was okay with whatever was going to go down, you will notice that that never entered into the agnel's concern. He very definitely did not ask her permission. And that was my point. The above joke doesn't make any sense because she only said "yes" after it was decided what would be done to her. If she had said "no," well, tough shit.

Why would I object that the Gospel is unreliable? It never fucking happened to begin with, so what does that matter? I'm talking about not knowing how the story goes.

And your point about the impregnation not being sexual is just bizarre. Conception is a sexual act. If God had made Jesus out of clay or dust or air, that would be non-sexual. Have the whole "child in the womb" thing sexualizes it. Let the Medieval theologians say what they want. The text you cited says nothing of an "unruptured hymen." My further point is that this is not an unusual thing to include in the story of a god. Earlier religious figures had experienced "virgins births," with or without consent, and I don't think anybody's twisting things around to make sure they have no hint of sex. When Zeus seduced Minos's wife and impregnated her with the Minotuar, was that non-sexual?

[JerseygirlCT]

26. "May it be done to me according to your word."

that's not consent?

[JerseygirlCT]

27. Well, not to pick too many nits, but

at least in our day, conception does not have to be connected to sex at all.

[olegramps]

32. The claim that she remained a virgin even after birth originated with Augustine and Jerome

[laconicsax]

13. Yep.

An angel came down and told her that it was going to happen--the decision had already been made.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

16. How many times has that occurred in the history of religion.

It's actually not an uncommon envent for a religious figure - a virgin or otherwise miraculous birth. Comes right along with healing the sick and raisng the dead, the title "Prince of Peace," "Light of the World," or "The Son of Man/God." A lot of the miraculous stuff (which our good sense alone should forfend us from taking seriously to begin with) is claimed, though not widely believed, of other religious figures.

[JerseygirlCT]

25. No, it was definitely consented to in the story

The lesson being an illustration of the free will we have to accept or reject God.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

30. I know consent was given.

It just wasn't asked for. That's what's so disturbing; she was okay with it, but the angel really didn't care.

[JerseygirlCT]

33. Why would the angel have come

if not looking for consent? After all, God certainly has it in God's power to simply make it happen, yes?

[darkstar3]

34. Because 2000 years ago, a woman pregnant out of wedlock needed a REALLY good cover story. n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

35. LOL... nt

[charlie]

17. The Abrahamic obsession with female virginity

creeps the shit out of me.

[darkstar3]

18. Especially when it's "kill everybody but the virgin women,

we'll rape them later."
yikes...

[charlie]

19. The virgins in your afterlife will never poop, pee, or fart

promises this cleric:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68gRPEyjzOE

Or menstruate. They don't do much of anything for that matter, except wait for you to come back and have your way with them. And Allah will give you the appetite and power of Superman, so you can ravish your babes good and proper.

Watch for the interviewer unconsciously smacking his lips. Fucking creeps.

[DeSwiss]

29. This is no religion.

- This is an ancient sex club for fugly, fat-assed old men.....

[charlie]

31. Heh

Big honking blue balls as a measure of your piety, whatta joke. That dumpy adenoidal loser would hang himself for GOOD TIMES NOW!!! if God didn't forbid it.

[golddigger]

24. I like Thomas Paine's take on it.

"It is not the existence, or non-existence, of the persons that I trouble myself about; it is the fable of Jesus Christ, as told in the New Testament, and the wild and visionary doctrine raised thereon, against which I contend. The story, taking it as it is told, is blasphemously obscene. It gives an account of a young woman engaged to be married, and while under this engagement she is, to speak plain language, debauched by a ghost, under the impious pretense (Luke, chap.1 ver. 35), that "the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee." Notwithstanding which, Joseph afterward marries her, cohabits with her as his wife, and in turn rivals the ghost. This is putting the story into intelligible language, and when told in this manner, there is not a priest but must be ashamed to own it."

Thomas Paine
The Age of Reason