Did anyone lose their faith due to the prevalence of evil?

[DerekG]

Agnostic here.

I've never felt comfortable among most non-believers, because my agnosticism wasn't rooted in rationalism. See, I have no problem with being guided by fairy tales. I like fairy tales. They've made my life considerably more interesting. Thing is, fairy tales have an inherent moral order—-not at all like real life.

Long and short of it is, I've seen and heard some hideous shit. Too much senseless suffering. Too many miscarriages of justice. Too much evil. Nothing redemptive about any of it. And rather than perpetually lamenting "Why? Why?", I found myself at a juncture where I had no choice but to throw in the metaphysical towel. Any continued relationship with a personal God would have driven me mad. (And if “God” is in fact a mysterious, amoral higher consciousness/energy force, then there's no use for me to give “It” even a scintilla of thought.)

The world tore my heart to tatters, and my faith with it.

Anyone else?

[rurallib]

1. Yep, that pretty much describes me.

[Orrex]

2. I've never had faith, at least not since I knew what the word is supposed to mean

However, the prevalence of evil makes it that much more difficult for a person of faith to convince me of the existence of a benevolent force or entity presiding over everything.

[MindandSoul]

3. I've lost my faith in religion (any religion) long ago. . .when I was molested

by a priest at the age of 11. . .but I have never lost my faith in God. . .it's not just the traditional "Christian" God. . .(male, caucasian, with a long white beard. .?).

The God I believe in is not limited by men's definition of Him/Her/It, not limited by time, place, or men's cultural needs.

[BeatleBoot]

4. At several points in my life, yes.

But things change.

And then I find a re-awakening.

I do not find "faith in the foxhole", so to speak, but rather I am closer to it when I've weathered the storm.

I know everyone is different and I am not here to defend religion.

Just telling you how I have exprienced life so far.

[1620rock]

5. Agnostic here also...we are on the same page.

[BeatleBoot]

7. An agnostic, maybe so.

I fancy myself a Roman Catholic (a liberal, pro-choice one who wasn't molested by a priest).

And when I attend Mass, I call it "peaceful co-existence" between me and them. I meditate there.

But, maybe I am an agnostic and didn't realize it.

I am not really hung up on the labels.

But I am pissed at the Church right now - beyond pissed. As everyone should be.

[saltpoint]

6. I can shut up and listen to just about anybody who deeply and

genuinely wants to serve others. Feeding someone who is hungry, comforting the destitute and abandoned, treating the sick, clothing the naked so they're warm against the winter...

That all makes pretty good sense to me. It makes for a strong argument for adult citizenship. Of all the things one can do in one's life, those things rate pretty high. It seems reasonable to me that the more children there are who see adults behaving that way and doing those things, the more likely those kids are to grow up to be those kind of adults.

Where I start getting edgy is when the zealots start bringing out the boards & nails and want to punish randy authors, risk-taking playwrights and film-makers, feminists and gays and scientists. Some of the Christian fundamentalists don't appear to have anything better to do than wait on Christ's return, which they consider to be imminent, and in the days running up to his arrival they want to destroy public education, the Democratic Party, most of Hollywood, Barney Frank, and the Constitution.

Maybe they should actually READ the New Testament to see what it says.

[Birthmark]

8. No

My particular problem was that I read the Bible and concluded either that God was bat-shit crazy...or that God didn't exist. I decided to take the choice that didn't scare hell outta me. :)

My reasons for being an atheist are a bit better grounded than that now.

But the problem of evil is a difficult one for the concept of God. After all, God created evil, allowed it, and defined its bounds. Even if evil is "necessary" there's no legitimate or logical excuse for God to allow someone to be so evil that others are hurt by it. IOW, evil can be expressed in ways restricted to the individual acting evilly.

And let's not forget, that God himself has acted evilly.

[Double T]

9. Organized religions of this world are certainly evil and are the root cause of most wars, strife....

and conflict. I adopted paganism as my spiritual guide where I (WE) are one with nature, the cosmos and the great spirit.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/relintol3.htm

http://www.allaboutspirituality.org/paganism.htm

[rug]

10. No. Whatever evil there is exists with or without religion.

[darkstar3]

11. But not with or without the supposed creator contained in many religions. n/t

[rug]

12. Accept or don't accept a creator. You're still stuck with the rest.

[darkstar3]

14. of what?

Your skills of exposition are incredibl...y lacking.

[rug]

19. Your compulsion to insult is exceeded only by your deliberate obtuseness.

Is that sufficient exposition?

[darkstar3]

20. Not hardly. n/t

[ChadwickHenryWard]

26. That was not the question.

[rug]

29. Does the existence of evil have anything to do with faith?

[ChadwickHenryWard]

32. That's not what the OP asked.

The OP never asked whether evil was caused by religion. The question concerned the impact of the presence of evil on the ability to believe in god as a moral actor or a force for ultimate good.

That said, I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking whether evil is caused by faith or are you asking what effect evil has on faith?

[rug]

33. The OP's premise is that one may lose one's faith by the inability to reconcile evil with a god.

My question is, what does one have to do with the other?

You can equally assert that the presence of evil can impel one into faith.

The existence of evil, or any other similar term, continues whether or not someone believes in a god.

It demonstrates neither the absence nor presence of a god.

[darkstar3]

34. The answer to your question lies in whether the god being discussed is credited with creation.

If the god in question is claimed to have created the universe, then said god is also responsible for the creation of "evil", and that is what they have to do with each other.

[rug]

36. "Evil" has more to do with the nature of human beings than any notion of a god.

[dmallind]

37. Who created the human beings that way? NT

[rug]

38. The same being that recycles hoary old arguments.

Endlessly.

[dmallind]

39. Religion then? NT

[ChadwickHenryWard]

35. Well, that's exactly right.

But I think that what the OP is concerned with is whether or not god is good. The idea that god is evil is not really ever discussed. I think the assumption is that either god would not allow evil, or god does not exist. The possibility that god allows/approves of evil is discounted out of hand, for better or worse.

[beam me up scottie]

13. Never believed, was not assimilated.

I stayed at the default position since I've never seen any evidence of deities or anything else supernatural (or preternatural for those special people who don't understand the definition of the former).

Interesting post, thanks for your insight, your loss of faith reminds me of a similar conclusion reached by a close family member.

[darkstar3]

15. Ah, the "problem of evil."

You are not alone, dear Derek. Since time unrecorded the "problem of evil" has plagued religious adherents, and they have spent vast mental and even monetary and other physical resources trying to answer it.

There's a very good start on the debate surrounding this "problem of evil" here: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/

As for the world/universe, I find myself, from time to time, enjoying a quote from Babylon 5's Marcus Cole:

I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, 'wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe.

[beam me up scottie]

16. "now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."

I wish I had said that.

Nice. :toast:

[darkstar3]

21. Straczynski wrote some very good stuff.

It's too bad he was so AWFUL at writing romance but insisted on including it in order to provide a dimension of realism.

I've been thinking about changing my sig to another B5 quote..."Marcus, this is the kind of conversation that can only end in a gunshot..." Oddly apropos for the R/T board, wouldn't you say?

[iris27]

28. I *almost* posted that B5 quote in my response, but couldn't find a way to

relate it to the rest. Good thing I didn't; that'll teach me not to read the thread before posting!

[PassingFair]

17. Agnostic Atheism is, at heart, acceptance that we just do not know...

Doesn't mean we can't make the best of what IS.

[ironbark]

18. First up

I’d like to thank you for your honesty and openness. Speaking from the heart is to be greatly admired… especially here in a realm dominated by definitions and sold short by semantics.
The Community Builder M Scott Peck described the stages most communities go through- Pseudo Community, Chaos, Vulnerability and True Community. Like most groups this community fluctuates between Pseudo Community and Chaos…it is only when an individual allows vulnerability, speaks of brokenness, that the group might validate such honesty and the group may move on.

“The world tore my heart to tatters, and my faith with it.”

Yes, the world sure can do that and no one is immune, including those for whom ‘faith’ goes no further than faith in their own strength/capacity, faith that things will turn out all right or faith in the inherent goodness of others. Life can kick the crap out of anyone no matter what they believe or don’t believe.

“I found myself at a juncture where I had no choice but to throw in the metaphysical towel.”

I’m an agnostic so for me the throwing in the towel is more often prompted by mankind than metaphysical being. As you said “Too much senseless suffering. Too many miscarriages of justice. Too much evil.” I’ve spent nearly three decades in the welfare sector and jaded as I am and should be it is the abuse of innocents that crushes my spirit. Then there are the responsible agencies and organizations….You see, I can understand some sick f#$k doing some sick f#$*ed up thing because that’s what sick f#$ks do……But otherwise sane, healthy, professionals in positions of collective responsibility that ignore or cover up abuse…..That twists my head every time.

“Nothing redemptive about any of it.”

I agree. And yet I remain open to an awareness of the impact of time…and to the possibility that we may live beyond this lifetime.
Ever seen/been a running child that falls face forward on gravel or cement? Skun face, hands and knees. The pain is all consuming, the child is inconsolable, the world has become a place of “senseless suffering”.
The only reason we tut tut and apply iodine without drama is that we know the pain will pass with time and that there are greater sufferings to come.
>IF<…there is life beyond this one then any and all suffering and evil falls into the context of eternity …and is rendered thereby as no more than a skun knee.
>IF<…there is no life beyond this one we would require a sound ethical/intellectual basis for the godlike act of bringing a child into the world when pain, suffering, evil and heartbreak are guaranteed to be encountered…..and any redemptive balance a crap shoot of pure chance.

Greatly appreciated your post.

PS. Some fairy tales have no "inherent moral order" and are perfect vehicles for Narrative Therapy exploration and healing for children and adults suffering from abuse/trauma. 'Where the Wild Tings Are' has more structure/moral order than many tales but serves as a great narrative tool.

[struggle4progress]

22. The only significance of a question is what we could actually do with an answer.

So (for example) questions like "Why was Larry killed by a falling piano?" or "Why did Moe die of rabies?" can be understood in various ways and may be more or less productive depending on the interpretation. An answer such as "A concert grand piano weights half a ton, and when dropped by a helicopter from two hundred feet, hits the ground at highway speeds, so Larry naturally suffered the same fate as if he had been smashed into a wall by a fast moving small car" tells us something; an answer such as "Well, the helicopter pilot deliberately dropped the piano on Larry while he was in his hottub" tells us something else. And similarly, "Moe was bitten by an raccoon that he tried to pull from the camp latrine pit" or "Moe really doesn't like needles and refused to take the rabies series" answer the question, perhaps accurately but in different ways. There might be further answers to these questions -- (say) "The helicopter pilot's wife, Babushka, often parked her car in Larry's driveway so she could have sex with Larry's next-door neighbor, Biff, in Larry's backyard hottub while Larry was away at work, and the pilot honestly believed she was having an affair with Larry"

"Why did such-and-such happen?" is a vague question; answers may or may not be acceptable to you, depending on the intent of your question. "Why is there evil in the world?" is even more vague and presumes quite a lot: the existence of evil, the possibility of providing a single unified explanation for evil, and so on. The process of reification -- by which one takes the abstract adjective "evil," transforms it into a noun, assumes the noun actually refers to a definite "thing," and then inquires into the "why" of this "thing" -- might itself deserve some attention: at the very least, one might have the decency to blink a few times while considering whether the approach has any chance of producing meaningful discourse

[Silent3]

23. Hey, a post of yours I actually agree with a lot.

Maybe miracles do happen. :)

[struggle4progress]

31. horrors!

[Silent3]

24. My problem with the idea of someone losing their faith...

...because of the prevalence of evil (or at least of "very bad things happening", to avoid the loaded term "evil") is that it seems to me they couldn't have had their eyes very wide open before losing their faith.

It's particularly bothersome (understandable, but bothersome) to me when a personal tragedy is what causes a person to lose faith. Shouldn't they have been able to put themselves in the shoes of all of the people in the world to whom terrible things happen all of the time, and have gotten their crisis of faith out of the way sooner?

"Theodicy" as it's called, or "the problem of evil", certainly is a problem for the existence of a supposedly benevolent God. It's not a problem for faith in powerful, but not necessarily benevolent, beings. There are arguments -- or rather, as I think of them, weak excuses -- for how a benevolent God could preside over the world as we know it, but I don't consider them very convincing myself.

The most common excuse is that we mere mortals aren't worthy to judge the actions of God, that "the Lord works in mysterious ways", and for that reason we're supposed to "have faith" that the Big Guy knows what he's doing, that it all somehow works out in the end. The problem for me with that reasoning is that if we humans are incompetent to judge the actions of a God as being ultimately good or bad, then we're also incompetent to declare that He/She/It must be good. If you don't trust yourself to be able to see how a deadly earthquake or a brutal dictator's reign of terror can serve an ultimate good, why trust yourself to declare that the God you imagine lets such things happen is good?

[ChadwickHenryWard]

25. For Mexican filmmaker Guillermo del Toro, that was about it.

In an interview for "Fresh Air with Terry Gross," he related that he worked in a morque during his teenage years, and one year there was a cholera epidemic. He came in to work in the morning and there was literally a pile of dead babies in the back corner. He said that at that moment he realized there was no god. He couldn't reconcile the sight of that mind-shattering horror with the notion of the god he had been raised to believe in. So that was that.

For me, it wasn't so much the existence of "evil" (not a very useful word, in my opinion.) The more I learned about the religions of the world past and present, it just seemed that they all had an equal handle on reality - not a very good one. So I retreated into deism, feeling that no existing religion could explain the world I observed. The more I learned about science and history, the less the world looked like one with a god controlling it. Atheism just came about on its own. At this point, I think it towringly unlikely that there is any kind of controlling force in this universe.

[iris27]

27. Partly, yes.

The evil inherent in the particular fairy tale I believed was what drove me from it...the idea of an all-loving God creating/being willing to permit a situation where more than 2/3 of his beloved creations would spend eternity in suffering rather than with Him, in the name of "free will".

The horrors of the world are what kept me moving from the Christian Trinity right on past any and all sorts of deities who'd have personal involvement with the daily workings of the world and an interest in how it all shakes out.

From there I landed in the same place that you did...if there's some sort of "God" as the initial impetus of the universe, or a vast store of energy, or a trickster Loki/Q sort of deity...why should I care?

My mother once told a story about how the president of our denomination (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod) died on the same day as Jeffrey Dahmer. Since Dahmer was reported to have accepted Jesus as his savior while in jail, a lot of Lutherans were upset at the idea of a godly man who'd ministered to thousands arriving at the pearly gates as the equal of a mass-murderer who made an 11th-hour conversion. And her "point" was that it didn't matter to God - once you believed in Jesus, that was the golden ticket (ok, my words not hers)...and that without it, the minister and Dahmer would have been equally deserving of eternal hellfire. "God judges good differently than we do."

I was a full-on believer (and all of 11) at the time, but even then I thought...but if God made us, then something's fucked up here. Either God made us wrong, or God isn't good.

It was one more chip in a facade that had started cracking when I found out Santa wasn't real, but it'd take another nine years to completely fall.

[skepticscott]

30. There's plenty of evil in fairy tales

as long as you don't get mired in the Disney versions of everything. Lots of terrible things happen to characters at the end of fairy tales with no redemption at all.

[deutsey]

40. I no longer believe in a personal God

for many of the reasons you cite.

I do, however, believe in something like Brahman in Vedanta Hinduism, an impersonal Ultimate Source or creative life impulse from which everything emerges and into which everything disintegrates eventually (and perhaps emerges again, who knows?).

Growing in awareness of how I am a part of this (not apart from) this sense of "God" (larger reality) is a form of spiritual practice for me. It puts things in perspective and inspires me to do what I can to change what I can, but also to accept what I can't.

Just my .02 cents.

[meeshrox]

41. Abuse, yes...

Atheist here

But, the abuse just helped it along faster...I knew bad things happened to everyone and I wasn't so obsessed with "why me"? But, I cannot see a loving god existing if shit like that happens everyday. The fact it happened to me made it more personal and relevant earlier in my life than I would have found it otherwise.