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Jesus an atheist could love - No more crosses

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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 09:47 AM
Original message
Jesus an atheist could love - No more crosses
Edited on Wed Mar-31-10 10:07 AM by ashling
This sermon has been posted here, but really is great ... so it is being posted again.

I am posting more than 4 paragraphs, but not nearly all of it.
it is a sermon - it was meant to be shared - to be repeated - to be lived

http://networkedblogs.com/p30397811

####

Why are we so obsessed with this man's death?

Dying was his reason for living.

Really? The belief that Jesus died for us or died for our sins or died to save us has been Christianity's theological centerpiece. His death and resurrection are two parts of this mythology.

That mythology has little to do with the historical person of Jesus.

####


Jesus had a life before he died. The things he did and the things he said were provocative enough to put him on the wrong side of the authorities. From the things people remembered that he did and said, he was critical of the authorities. He was critical of the religious authorities and of the political authorities. That is what got him killed.

He challenged systems of authority that took advantage of widows, of the poor, and of the outcast. He created a movement. And it was threatening enough that those in power felt the need to stop him. Perhaps to make of him an example. That is what got him killed.

There were many people tortured and killed on Roman crosses. Jesus was one of many.

####

He was on the side of people who were oppressed by the economic policies of the temple. That is what got him killed. He was on the side of people considered unclean and sinners by the religious.

He is remembered for telling parables and stories that upset people. He used a phrase "kingdom of God." That phrase means little to us because we have tamed it. Most folks thanks to the theologians think it is another phrase for heaven, a place the true believers go when they die.

It is likely that it was a political statement. As opposed to the kingdom of Caesar, this is what the kingdom of God is like. It wasn't just a fantasy, a story. It was a movement. This the kingdom to live for, to work for, perhaps even to die for. It is a kingdom of justice and compassion. In this kingdom, in this political economy the hungry are filled with good things. Now let's make it so.

Jesus was about making changes in this world. That is what got him killed.

He talked about compassion. He talked about moving beyond ethnic boundaries and divisions. He talked about forgiveness. Not something you go to the priest for or even to God for, but your neighbor. That is the one we hurt. That is the one from whom we need forgiveness. We get it as we give it. He worked to bring people together: Samaritan and Jew, Greek and Roman. He practiced an open table, rich and poor, male and female. He challenged unjust boundaries and rules. That is what got him killed.

Dying was not his reason for living.

Living was his reason for dying.

For life, he died. For integrity, he died. For compassion, he died. For justice, he died. For change, he died.

He was in the way. He was in the way of progress. He was in the way of Rome. He was in the way of the religious authorities who had sold out their people to Rome. He was killed as were many just like him.

The only difference is that while those others are unknown to us, we know some of Jesus' story. We know about what he lived for.

I think it is a sham and a shame that the religious establishment distorted his story. They took his story and turned into a caricature.

######

That story is supposedly better than what really happened?

And the crazy thing is that we just take it. We accept it.

Hardly anyone raises an objection. No one says,

"Wait a second! Jesus had to die this bloody torturous death because I am so bad? Even though I wasn't even born when he died?"

It is actually rather sick. Seriously. It is pathological theology. We simply take it.

#####


Jesus' life was fast. Like Martin Luther King, they both died before reaching forty. But their lives burned with passion and fire. They burned out for compassion and justice.

Apparently, they believed that it is better to have burned out than never to have burned at all.

Whenever any of us stands up for those who are abused or put down or who suffer injustice from bullies big and small, we practice true religion.

No need for a lot of theological hocus pocus.

Do justice.
Love kindness.
Walk humbly.

Amen.
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stjohndoe Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. That's my Pastor
Edited on Wed Mar-31-10 09:56 AM by stjohndoe
You can listen to his sermons online here--http://web.me.com/firstpreseliz/FPC_Elizabethton/Welcome.html--just click on "podcast sermons".
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. My older daughter goes to ETSU and the UU Church
in Johnson City. But she loves Shadduck (sp?) She called me Sunday afternoon and during the call she insisted on reading me the entire thing.

He is the kind of pastor I wanted to be when I thought of going to seminary some 30 years ago.

:fistbump:
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. BTW, welcome
:hi:
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stjohndoe Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. His name is John Shuck
He is truly unique, at least in this area of the country. Thanks for the welcome, btw. I've lurked here for years, but figured I needed to give props to John.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
5. The fact that some wise people have gotten the point
is what keeps me from taking a really hard line against Christians.

Rome, or its tax collector Paul, kicked Jesus upstairs to be a god and started the death cult. That death cult is what most people focus on, denying the life of the man and the example he set. It's why they wear his execution around their necks, physically and metaphorically.

Anyone who focuses on his life has gotten the point. Anyone who focuses on his death has not.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. I cannot see how the Crucifix can be removed from Christian theology -- even
if one rejects all the miracle stories, even if one assumes that the old texts have a historical context without a factual historical content -- the fact remains that "Do justice, love kindness, walk humbly" often offends the political and religious establishment and will be dealt with accordingly. In ancient Rome, any such threats met with murderous state violence. Whether or not the historical Pilate ever actually uttered the exact words, I find him guiltless so I will have him flogged and released, the story remembers an attitude common for empires, an attitude so natural to conquerors that they fail to notice the injustice of what they say even as they speak. The doctrine that we should be just to one another, and that those who have really ought to share with those who have not, is not always an impotent nicety: it can be potentially incendiary. Who, planning to build a tower, would not first sit down and reckon the cost?
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. While I don't necessarily accept that there even was a real...
...historical Jesus, I'd concur that there's a lot more to be learned from the life of Jesus (to whatever extent mythical) than the crucifixion.

The whole notion of "substitutionary atonement", that Jesus "died for our sins", has always struck me as one of the more bizarre, even if wildly popular, theological ideas.
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. “Do justice.”…It’s such a simple expression of intent.

I wonder what it means?

On the macro, between nations and on a planet.

Is it today-
“Pay unto the West what the West is due”?
“Pay unto America what America is due”?

What if it’s “Pay unto China what China is due”?

What is the planet due?

Arms sales are up 22% over the last few years…business is booming.
The Iranians have been spotted with a nuclear enrichment plant…right beside the WMDs?

Or is justice local? Micro, right here.

In my culture you would have to pose a direct physical threat to another and/or their family
before there was a refusal to converse. But here ignore and killfile are imposed on the basis
of words?/ideas?/opinions?. Allegations are made here of “hatred” and then all invitations of
cite and substantiation are rejected/ignored...It is as if just making the allegation makes it so.

Justice?
I like the idea.
But I am afraid you are speaking to a chamber in which there is little/no interest in justice on
an international level and no understanding of justice at the most basic interpersonal level.



"...until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream".


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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-10 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. And you say this, why?
But I am afraid you are speaking to a chamber in which there is little/no interest in justice on
an international level and no understanding of justice at the most basic interpersonal level.

are you speaking to me or to John Shuck (the author of the sermon

as for your use of the word "chamber", are you finding fault with DU, this forum, the Church in Elizabethton, or with all Christians?
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Have a look around

See any threads on justice, social justice, peace, community, community building and the role of religion in these endeavours?

“..are you speaking to me or to John Shuck (the author of the sermon)”

I was speaking to anyone who reads the post about this chamber.

“as for your use of the word "chamber", are you finding fault with DU, this forum, the Church in Elizabethton, or with all Christians?”

Referring to the purpose this forum is generally put to…..contempt for all Christians/religion.
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-03-10 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Well, still a little unclear on your focus or point of view, but
There is an entire DU Group entitles Peacemaking and Community Group and, a good bit of that goes on herein this forum. There is a lot of ".contempt for all Christians/religion" happening here too.

I guess what I am asking, is where do you come down? Are you expressing contempt for Christians/religion, or contempt for those who come here to express their contempt for all Christians/religion?
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ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-03-10 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. "Peacemaking and Community" in R&T, seriously? Show me.

" where do you come down? Are you expressing contempt for Christians/religion, or contempt for those who come here to express their contempt for all Christians/religion?"

No, no contempt for anyone or any pov.

But profound dissatisfaction with the behaviours that take place here.

Came looking, 3years and 400+ posts ago for that progressive/liberal tradition informed by faith or at least open to it. Looking to see how we ‘do justice’ in a post 9/11 world, looking to see how we ‘do justice’ daily, interpersonally, in community.

Have seen contempt for all Christians and religion in general.As an agnostic working in close association with diverse people of faith the prevailing attitude on R&T saddens me.
It is narrow, shallow, blinkered, rude and intolerant.

I have no contempt for persons or povs...but wilful and celebratory ignorance….that’s another matter.

My apologies if my position and intent was not clear…but sometimes clarity leads only to post deletion ;-)
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-03-10 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I think you have to be a donor to access the DU Groups
Here is a list of the groups available to donors:
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I agree that it is often hard to find a serious discussion that is not soon taken over by negativity and persons just out to rain on somebody's day. However, they do happen here. Witness the discussion we are having :shrug:
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
9. This kind of Christology is what helped to convert me to a follower of Jesus
Unfortunately, because the mainline denomination I used to belong to was succumbing to the influence of conservative orthodoxy (along withthe rightwing cooption of Christianity in general ) helped unconvert me.

That's not entirely correct, though. I still draw a lot of inspiration from this view of who Jesus was (is). If I lived near the church where this sermon was preached, I would probably check it out.
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-10 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Much the same for me
When I decided to become a christian, it was not through John 3:16, but because of social concerns ...

I never accepted the "pathology" that John Shuck speaks of.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-10 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. This story of his 'life' is as much a myth as the other one.
It's a nice myth, but a myth just the same. Not that there's anything wrong with myth per se, as long as it is recognized as such.
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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
17. There is no crucifix associated with Jesus
signed, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.



:hide:
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