On atheism and charity.

[LAGC]

This is a question mainly for atheists... do you ever feel reluctant to contribute to charitable causes because so many have a religious bent?

I've been wanting to get more active contributing to worthy causes, but find the amount of choices lacking.

I know Richard Dawkins had a donation drive for Haiti relief a couple months back, and I donated to it. And I've consistently donated to the local United Way through work, but it would be nice if there were some secular organizations that did stuff like help run the local homeless shelter and send care packages to prisoners -- activities that are currently monopolized by religious organizations, giving them a convenient pool of helpless victims to proselytize and recruit from, which is no doubt why they do it.

I'm thinking of an organization like the Salvation Army, but without the "salvation" part. Does anyone know of any good national secular groups that accomplish the same general mission, without the preaching? By no means would such a secular organization need to be limited to atheists members only, but the goal would be to aid our fellow man without the religious baggage that so often comes with it.

It would just be good for those who are in need to know that people genuinely care about them, not just in exchange for their souls.

[sinkingfeeling]

1. I give to about 120 non-religious charities each year. Most are global.

[LAGC]

2. I guess I'm looking more for charities that work on the local level.

As there is plenty of need right nearby in the local community, not that there aren't plenty of worthwhile global causes to contribute to.

I was just wondering if there was a national group that did things like focus on the plight of the homeless and the imprisoned at the local level, without the religious baggage that often comes with it.

[iris27]

6. Most secular charities that work on the local level are individual and local.

There is no direct equivalent (that I'm aware of) to something like the SA. There are a lot of food banks and shelters in my area that are secular, but none of them are even state-wide organizations; they're just local to my city.

[ironbark]

30. Yes, there is always “plenty of need right nearby”.

Which is why the OP question is so important and why it is so disappointing that people are padding, skirting and evading a straight answer-

There is >NO< secular “national group that did things like focus on the plight of the homeless and the imprisoned at the local level”.

And just as important as the recognition of that fact is the question ‘why’?
Why are people so desperate to avoid the issue?
Why are people throwing up Doctors Without Borders etc >as if< they somehow met the criteria described?

Everybody is desperate to say “There are plenty”, “There are lots”….but no one has named one that looks anything like what was sought in the OP.

And I doubt (on repeated experience) that anyone is going to be prepared to discuss why there are no such national secular charities doing the work you describe.

[HuckleB]

31. I don't know where you live, but I bet that an organization similar to this (see link) exists there.

http://www.humansolutions.org/about-human-solutions.php

This a Portland, OR, organization.

Further, many metropolitan areas have volunteer organizations along the "Hands On..." set up.
http://www.handsonportland.org/HomePage/index.php/home.html

[ironbark]

33. That’s great, but it’s not what the OP asked.

There is no argument being put forward that there are no secular charities…so there is no point throwing up the name of any and every secular charitable organization you (all) can come up with.

The OP asked for something specific- “an organization like the Salvation Army, but without the "salvation" part” “a national group”.

There is an important/vital distinction between those groups that can perform one off or emergency aid and/or build houses and those groups that can provide ongoing day to day services to those in need.
The distinction between such agencies has been well known, discussed and examined within the Welfare Sector for decades…and it is a distinction of ‘community’.
There are factors of economy of scale that make the ‘national’ aspect important and factors of volunteerism that make the local aspect important.

But no one is saying there are no secular charities…so I don’t see the point in everyone throwing up the first organization they can google and pretending it covers or meets what the OP sought.

[HuckleB]

37. Actually, it is.

Such local organizations exist all over the country, and, combined, they dwarf the SA.

You are offering nothing but ludicrous responses at this point.

[ironbark]

57. I’d like to congratulate you on the birth of your sky pixie god agency.

Your nameless mega agency is comprised of unidentified “local organizations” and anyone considering your pov is expected to take it on faith that it and/or its constituent components exist and add up to something huge.
What’s more insight and understanding of this mega agency is available for $25 per journal scripture in 29#.

You would do any theist organization proud with such faith and salesmanship.

Have you named the ‘dwarfing’ agency?
Perhaps Sky Pixie Inc…Or 'The Great Unicorn'?

[HuckleB]

66. Your fallacies are quite humorous.

Thanks for the giggles.

I'm sure you'll go off at length again, but the evidence against your "it takes religion to make a community" BS is quite clear, and I've no need to continue.

[ironbark]

67. Your blatant forgery and falsification of my pov is not humorous

When you attribute something to me as verbatim in quotation marks-
"it takes religion to make a community"
It needs to be something I have actually said.

And, when you are asked, as I am doing now, for you to cite/link and substantiate that specific phrase, you have the opportunity to do so or be exposed as a fraud.

This issue of ongoing blatant falsification has already been taken to the Mods and your provision of yet another example only serves to strengthen the case for a ‘substantiation policy’.

So…If you can find me saying-“"it takes religion to make a community" then link to and substantiate the quote and I will apologise for my error.

But if your re writing what you think I said and presenting it as a verbatim quote then go hang your head in well deserved shame.

[MineralMan]

3. There are plenty of non-religious charities out there.

That said, in my local area the Union Rescue Mission does a great job in helping the homeless, so I donate to them frequently. My main concern is where the money's being used, rather than the religious bent of an organization. I do not donate to the Salvation Army, though, due to their discriminatory polices.

The bottom line is that I check out any charity to make sure the money I donate is being spent on the goals I intend.

[JerseygirlCT]

20. Well said. That's exactly the way to do it, IMO

Donors ought to look carefully at the work of any charity they're considering. How much of your gift goes toward the organization's mission and programs and how much to administration? How effective are they? And of course, do you believe in what they do?

Your method makes perfect sense to me. And I say that as both a donor and someone who has made a career in non-profits. I see it from both sides.

[YOY]

4. You want receipts?

We have them.

As for the salvation army...they are actually fucking saving people from poverty as opposed to giving them a magical friend and cause to save their souls.

If the underlying effect is actual kindness and charity then who am I to spit on them for their beleifs?

I will shit on Evangelicals who give away TVs and Cars at their Easter hoe-down.

[beam me up scottie]

9. "...they are actually fucking saving people from poverty" Yeah, at a PRICE.

Genuine charity means giving aid for FREE, not asking for something in return or making you lie about who you are.

Mission Statement

The Salvation Army, an international movement, is an evangelical part of the universal Christian Church. Its message is based on the Bible. Its ministry is motivated by the love of God.

Its mission is to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and to meet human needs in His name without discrimination.

The Salvation Army's eleven articles of faith reflect our determination to remain faithful to our standards and principles. All members of The Salvation Army are encouraged to review these principles from time to time and to reaffirm before God their dedication to Him and to His good works.



1. We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and that they only constitute the Divine rule of Christian faith and practice.


2. We believe that there is only one God, who is infinitely perfect, the Creator, Preserver, and Governor of all things, and who is the only proper object of religious worship.


3. We believe that there are three persons in the Godhead - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, undivided in essence and co-equal in power and glory.


4. We believe that in the person of Jesus Christ the Divine and human natures are united, so that He is truly and properly God and truly and properly man.


5. We believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocence, but by their disobedience, they lost their purity and happiness, and that in consequence of their fall, all men have become sinners, totally depraved, and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God.


6. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has by His suffering and death made an atonement for the whole world so that whosoever will may be saved.


7. We believe that repentance toward God, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and regeneration by the Holy Spirit are necessary to salvation.


8. We believe that we are justified by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and that he that believeth hath the witness in himself.


9. We believe that continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ.


10. We believe that it is the privilege of all believers to be wholly sanctified, and that their whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


11. We believe in the immortality of the soul, the resurrection of the body, in the general judgment at the end of the world, in the eternal happiness of the righteous, and in the endless punishment of the wicked.


* emphasis mine

Abortion

The Salvation Army deplores society's ready acceptance of abortion, which reflects insufficient concern for vulnerable persons, including the unborn. (Psalms 82:3-4)

The Salvation Army holds to the Christian ideals of chastity before marriage and fidelity within the marriage relationship and, consistent with these ideals, supports measures to prevent crisis pregnancies. It is opposed to abortion as a means of birth control, family planning, sex selection or for any reason of mere convenience to avoid the responsibility for conception. Therefore, when an unwanted pregnancy occurs, The Salvation Army advises that the situation be accepted and that the pregnancy be carried to term, and offers supportive help and assistance with planning.

Homosexuality

The Salvation Army holds a positive view of human sexuality. Where a man and a woman love each other, sexual intimacy is understood as a gift of God to be enjoyed within the context of heterosexual marriage. However, in the Christian view, sexual intimacy is not essential to a healthy, full, and rich life. Apart from marriage, the scriptural standard is celibacy.

Sexual attraction to the same sex is a matter of profound complexity. Whatever the causes may be, attempts to deny its reality or to marginalize those of a same-sex orientation have not been helpful. The Salvation Army does not consider same-sex orientation blameworthy in itself. Homosexual conduct, like heterosexual conduct, requires individual responsibility and must be guided by the light of scriptural teaching.

Scripture forbids sexual intimacy between members of the same sex. The Salvation Army believes, therefore, that Christians whose sexual orientation is primarily or exclusively same-sex are called upon to embrace celibacy as a way of life. There is no scriptural support for same-sex unions as equal to, or as an alternative to, heterosexual marriage.

These vultures are the lowest of the low, they prey on people when they are at their weakest and they openly admit that saving souls is Job Number One.

After our family's house burned to the ground I was visited by several charities - including the Red Cross and the Salvation Army. The Red Cross volunteers were wonderful, as were our local charities. The SA, on the other hand, refused to help us unless we belonged to a church.

I threw them out of the house. They're lucky I didn't send my German Shepard out to help them to their car.

The Salvation Army does NOT give charity, they're selling something and it stinks.

[YOY]

10. Well then...no 10$ check for them.

I stand corrected. Screw them.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

5. Most religious charity around here is made by Catholics. I'll contribute to them, no problem.

Ditto for Spiritists. (sp?)

Predictably, evangelicals/pentecostals/bornagains do VERY little in terms of charity. The general attitude seems to be, "All we have to do is spread the word of Jesus; that's the only thing that matters, saving souls."

Their few charities are the ones that come with strings attached. From those, I run like hell. More tolerant religions tend to help people for the sake of helping people.

[JerseygirlCT]

12. Thank you

And yes, that's my experience as well.

The food pantry/soup kitchen that was founded by a consortium of churches in my town doesn't give a hoot what religion - or no religion - that its clients hold to. They don't ask them to pray with them. They provide food. And company. Sometimes other help such as suggestions for getting other help (food, rent help, etc). Period.

Same thing with the food pantry run out of my parent's Catholic church. There's no proselytizing, and they don't care who you are, what you believe or where you come from. You need help; they give it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

14. Don't thank me. I calls 'em as I sees 'em. -nt

[Silent3]

7. Doctors Without Borders? Oxfam?

In my town there's a local soup kitchen I donate too and they aren't a religious organization.

[JerseygirlCT]

19. Well, Oxfam was originally founded by a group of

Quakers.

Guess it depends on how far you want to take the no-religion thing.

The point is, there are many terrific charities - some with religious ties, some without. Many of those who could be said to have religious ties are absolutely non-discriminatory in both their operations and their programs. Proselytizing is not usually part of any outreach program at mainline churches, for instance.

Charities ought to be fairly open with their information - about what they do, how they do it, and what guidelines they follow. If they're not, then I'd suggest that giving to them is dicey, regardless of any religious involvement.

[Silent3]

59. It doesn't matter to me much who founded Oxfam.

What matters to me is whether an organization's charity work is tied to proselytizing or promoting religion. As far as I know, Oxfam doesn't hand out Bibles or religious tracts when it delivers food and clean water. Oxfam doesn't even advertise religious roots or motivation for its charitable work in order to create side-effect religious promotion, like trying to get people to think, "Gosh, those Quakers are awfully nice people. Maybe I should look into Quakerism."

[Warpy]

8. I despise Aunty Sally's policies toward gays

but I do contribute to them because I've known someone they picked out of a migrant labor camp, cleaned up, and saw through grad school. She's gone now, and I contribute in her memory.

[JerseygirlCT]

13. Yeah, I have mixed feelings about them

I know they do a lot of good. But their stand on homosexuals in employment turns me off. They might get a few coins in the kettle, but I'll save more substantial gifts for organizations that don't discriminate.

[JerseygirlCT]

11. Wow... that's a pretty unfounded and broad-brush

attack on the people feeding the hungry and housing the homeless in countless communities.

Do you really think that most do that to increase their pool of helpless victims? That's awfully harsh.

You might also ask why it is that you can't more easily find "atheist" charities doing the same.

I certainly understand your hesitance to contribute to a religious charity. But a little deeper look would probably show you plenty - both secular and in some way attached to a religious organization - who do not proselytize, who do not seek to victimize people, whose only aim is to ease the pains of our society for those who suffer - no quid pro quo, no religious obligation.

[ironbark]

16. Oh no, when the proponent/s of the pov have psychic insight

they can see right into anothers motivation and intent and ascertain with “no doubt why they do it.”

This remarkable ability to see into the mind and motives of others is displayed here by many atheists on a daily basis. What’s truly frightening is that once the theists inner workings are revealed and exposed they are all invariably evil.
It's spooky.
Religious organizations running ‘homeless shelters’ don’t have a client group for whom they are responsible…they have “a convenient pool of helpless victims”.

It really is all quite cruel and nasty once the motivations of the religious are revealed. The ‘helpless victims’ don’t stand a chance because, as everyone knows, once your poor or homeless your rational capacities shut down completely and you will join any evil cult.

I’m just so glad that the atheist component of humanity has evolved these remarkable powers of psychic insight…it permits them to not only reveal the evil intent of others but 9 out of 10 it enables them to write and reveal your pov for you.

Saves time I guess.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

22. that's what's great about all the Apatheist charities

They just don't care :shrug:

[iris27]

63. Okay, just happened to open this thread on a computer where I wasn't logged in.

I thought they'd deleted this subthread beginning with this vicious nonsense about "psychic insight", but it seems that's been left up and only I couldn't see it. Not then sure why my unpleasant experience with the Salvation Army was removed, then, instead of only my later post which did violate site rules.

But let's try this again, because I think my encounter shows just a little bit of why some liberals have serious problems with the Salvation Army, and don't feel that the world would be lacking if they disappeared overnight and only local groups remained to work with the homeless.

In high school, I was out with a group of friends (all of us attending a parochial Lutheran high school). Some of us were gay, others bi, others het. One or two had newly come out and were in the thick of that "proud, defiant" stage...I guess you could say deliberately 'flaming'. We were heading into the mall, and a Salvation Army bellringer was stationed outside the front doors. As we starting digging in our pockets for change, the guy STOPPED ringing the bell, got this panicked and snarly look on his face, put his HAND over the coin slot of the bucket, and growled to us:

"The Salvation Army doesn't want your fag money!"

Yeah. Real nice Christian attitude to a bunch of (also-Christian!) fifteen-year-olds, that was.

So, you know what? I've taken them at their word ever since.

Anyway.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[iris27]

17. There are plenty of secular charities, as you say. There are few-to-no specifically atheist

charities simply because the lack of a religion isn't really a starting point around which people gather - whether for socialization, or charity work, or anything else. I don't there are many charities out there specifically organized by bald people, people who have shellfish allergies, or night owls, either.

[Fumesucker]

44. Why can't you find organizations devoted to not collecting stamps that have charities?

Atheism is not an organizing principle any more than not collecting stamps is an organizing principle.

Atheists have no creed, no dogma, no catechism and in my experience no local organization. I have been an atheist for about forty five years now and I have not the slightest clue where I might go in my community to meet or organize with other atheists.

[darkstar3]

45. Yeah, but nobody on the other side gets that.

You see, for the people who follow this red herring, it all comes back to the idea of legitimizing the existence of faith and belief. The process is quite repeatable and goes something like this:

1. Faith-based charity exists, even if it is flawed.
2. "Atheism-based" charities do not exist.
3. Since atheism is simply a lack of faith, then if we lose faith, we lose charity. Therefore, we should never allow faith to be lost. And thus the existence of faith/belief is legitimized, even if it comes with nasty baggage like pedophile protection.

(substitute surrogate community or some horseshit in there at will)

The problem with this straw man (and that's what it is) is that it completely ignores the fact that, while there are no (or few) charities that are specifically "atheism-based", there are a myriad of charities that are NOT based faith-based.

Atheism is not, never has been, and never will be an effective motivator, as you have clearly shown here and I have shown elsewhere. Altruism, on the other hand, is a proven mammalian trait and IS a motivator to do charitable work. People who have no faith, no church, no support structure WILL find a way to do charitable work when the altruistic bug bites them. It has been demonstrated time and again through various secular charities that have been mentioned in this thread.

[ironbark]

54. And as soon as you designate “surrogate community” as “horseshit” you don’t get it.

An organization such as the Salvation Army has three primary contact or entry points-

1/ The service/charity/support agency. Rehab, Youth Facility, Aged Care, Food
Kitchen etc.

2/ The formal Church itself.

3/ The informal/social Church network.

What you are dismissing out of hand as “horseshit” is all of the community support and interaction that comes via formal and informal interaction.
And that is a huge and vital portion of what such church communities do.

Human beings are not machines that go to a service station charity, get fixed up and drive off well. They are social animals that seek acceptance and belonging and for vast numbers of young, elderly, former drug addicts and disabled the church communities are the ONLY place they will find the ‘charity’ of acceptance.

No one, absolutely no one, has argued or suggested in this thread that “if we lose faith, we lose charity”.
Your right, it is a straw man. Yours. You are the first and only one to suggest it.

“there are a myriad of charities that are NOT based faith-based.”

That’s right, and no one has suggested otherwise. No one has argued that there are no secular charities. But there is such desperation to prove they exist the OPs question is continually ignored.

What each and every respondent to the OP is failing to do is distinguish between the DISTINCT TYPES of charity that secular and religious agencies provide.

There is a world of difference between what Doctors Without Borders does and what the Salvation Army does.
Understanding the difference helps people appreciate both...instead of turning it into an either/or straw man competition.

[JerseygirlCT]

52. That was my point

Looking for something specifically atheist isn't likely to bring many options.

Expand the search to secular charities, and there's more. Look beyond that to charities with some sort of religious ties, but who do not proselytize or discriminate, and there are many more.

[iris27]

53. Okay...except the OP wasn't looking for specifically atheist charities.

From the OP: "Does anyone know of any good national secular groups that accomplish the same general mission, without the preaching? By no means would such a secular organization need to be limited to atheists members only, but the goal would be to aid our fellow man without the religious baggage that so often comes with it."

So your statement of "You might also ask why it is that you can't more easily find "atheist" charities doing the same" came across like YOU were the one wondering where all the atheist charities were.

Hence all the responses about charities run exclusively by left-handed people, Beatles fans, or women who share the name Susie.

[JerseygirlCT]

60. Gotcha

No, I just mean that the world of potential charities out there is huge - and there are a number of secular ones, but a larger number of charities that might be connected in some way to a religious group - but maybe shouldn't be written off just because of that.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[ironbark]

62. “shouldn't be written off” because they are religious

and should be examined to see what, if any, positive attributes come from being either religious
or secular.

It looks like 95% of responses so far are put up to prove secular charities exist.
I didn’t think that was ever in question let alone in the OP question.

Intentional or not the OPs question is particular and revealing- “Does anyone know of any good national secular groups that accomplish the same general (Salvation Army) mission, without the preaching?”

All the responses listing secular charities/agencies from Doctors Without Boarders to The National Center For Science Education do not answer or even touch on the OP question.

Not all charities/agencies are the same, share the same objectives, perform the same role or have the same characteristics and opportunities. The SA and similar religious agencies perform a unique roll in society…and, from a progressive/liberal perspective, I just don’t understand the ease with which they are “written off”.

[JerseygirlCT]

64. Well, I do understand if we're talking about the SA in particular

They do discriminate. And while they offer good and desperately needed services, I'm uncomfortable knowing that gay people are not welcome in their ranks. Also, they're anything but transparent as far as how the donated money is spent. Usually info is pretty readily available on a charity - from 990s to all sorts of other info. They're cagey about it all. I don't like that, either.

However, there are many other charities - as I've said, some religiously connected, some not - who offer similar services while not discriminating. I feel better giving my money to them, personally.

That's on top of the usual due diligence any donor should really do - with the internet, there's a world of info out there. Good charities are eager for you to see it and readily offer up a great deal of information on what they do and how, including how much money is spent on program vs. administrative expenses, how much they pay their chief executives, etc. (UW is another not favorite of mine, because of the latter. Though I'm in the business, I just cannot justify the huge salaries their execs are often paid).

[Odin2005]

15. I only donate to non-religious charities.

Sorry Salvation Army bellringers.

[omega minimo]

21. "This is a question mainly for atheists..."

Then why are you posting it in Religion/Theology Forum?

[MineralMan]

26. Perhaps because the word contains "theist" and because

the question is regarding non-religious charities. Most atheism discussions belong in Religion/Theology, since they have to do with not having a religion. Religion does not mean religious. This is not the Religious forum. It is the Religion/Theology forum.

[ironbark]

23. So, in summary so far, zero secular candidate organizations nominated.

The OP search question-
“..it would be nice if there were some secular organizations that did stuff like help run the local homeless shelter and send care packages to prisoners…
.I'm thinking of an organization like the Salvation Army, but without the "salvation" part. Does anyone know of any good national secular groups that accomplish the same general mission, without the preaching?

Some allude to such organizations or even claim there are “plenty”…but none are named that fit the OP criteria-

“about 120 non-religious charities each year. Most are global.”

“Most secular charities that work on the local level are individual and local.”

“There are plenty of non-religious charities out there.”

The ‘Union Rescue Mission’ gets a mention….but it turns out-

“Union Rescue Mission embraces people experiencing homelessness with the compassion of Christ - giving hope and healing for a changed life.”

‘Oxfam?’

“…founded by a group of Quakers.”

Which leaves ‘Doctors Without Borders’…not fitting what the OP described and sought.

So….if you can’t find a secular equivalent of the Salvation Army…put the boot into the SA itself-
“These vultures are the lowest of the low, they prey on people…”


Then it can be restated that there are “plenty of secular charities”… even if no one can name one that fits the OP bill.

“There are plenty of secular charities, as you say.”

28 posts in and no one can name a single secular charity doing parallel work to the SA 'vultures'.

This, below, would be worthy of discussion and examination-
“There are few-to-no specifically atheist charities simply because the lack of a religion isn't really a starting point around which people gather”

But the history of the board is that the dynamic described is a no go zone that will receive zero consideration.

So the search goes on…“There are plenty of secular charities” out there… but no one can remember their names.

[darkstar3]

24. Generalized charities have a tendency to bloat and become inefficient with their money distribution.

Then there's also the fact that most non-religious charities are cause-based, so you're not going to find many "clearing-house" or "we bring the money" type charities.

So basically, pick a cause. Doctors Without Borders was already mentioned, and I'll add Engineers Without Borders since they do a lot of good and similar work. There's also a good starting list here of other cause-based charities that are all secular. Some of those are more "cause" and less "charity", like Michael Newdow's "Restore the Pledge", but at least it's a jumping off point for getting answers to your questions.

Of course, I found that page by googling "secular charities" and clicking on the very first link, and it looks like there are a whole lot more there that I don't have time to look at. So, anyone interested in learning more about charities run by non-religious groups, brush up your google-fu and learn somethin'.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

25. Check out Foundation Beyond Belief

http://foundationbeyondbelief.org/

Also:

The Global Fund For Children
http://www.globalfundforchildren.org/

The National Center For Science Education
http://ncse.com/

The Haitian Health Foundation
http://www.haitianhealthfoundation.org/

ActionAid
http://www.actionaidusa.org/

Water For People
http://www.waterforpeople.org/

[ironbark]

27. Yea, I checked it out, it does not fit the OP criteria

Foundation Beyond Belief is a fundraiser for ten other small charitable organizations none of which perform a role anything like the SA.

Seems like no one has read or understood the OP question

“I'm thinking of an organization like the Salvation Army, but without the "salvation" part. Does anyone know of any good national secular groups that accomplish the same general mission, without the preaching?”

That would be a secular organization that provides a range of services to the poor, hungry, homeless, disadvantaged, drug addicted, aged and infirm on a national daily basis.

>>NONE<< of the agencies put forward come close to what the OP is asking about and some of the padding is getting absurdly desperate-

‘The National Centre for Science Education- defending the teaching of evolution in public schools’
????????????

Great organization……but has >nothing< to do with what the OP asked.

The OPs question is important in that while it reveals there are a number of good secular aid agencies there is no secular equivalent to the daily, national, community based, religious agencies such as the SA.

One day atheists might evolve sufficient intellectual curiosity to start investigating why that is so.
;-)

[HuckleB]

29. Seems like you're obsessed with finding a "perfect" fit.

Life doesn't work that way.

:eyes:

How many charities "like" the Salvation Army exist at all?

Further, something tells me that you don't want to look into FBB too much. The folks who are associated with it are indeed creating a great deal of community.

And you might not want to look at these either:

Comparing Faith-Based and Secular Community Service Corporations in Pittsburgh and Allegheny County, Pennsylvania
http://nvs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/34/2/206

Serving Up Sermons
http://nvs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/34/3/297

FAITH-BASED VERSUS SECULAR PROVIDERS OF SOCIAL SERVICES – DIFFERENCES IN WHAT, HOW, AND WHERE
http://www.spaef.com/file.php?id=593

[ironbark]

32. Yea, its my obsessive preference for people telling the truth

Life does work that way, its called honesty.

When someone asks for “good national secular groups that accomplish the same general (SA) mission, without the preaching” fobbing them off with false leads just to fill the secular basket is dishonest.

“How many charities "like" the Salvation Army exist at all?”

Secular ones? >None<…That’s the straight honest answer.

Church/religion based?…
Quite a few in Australia, Catholic, Anglican, Brotherhood of St Lawrence, St Vincent de Paul…the list goes on.


“Further, something tells me that you don't want to look into FBB too much.”

Perhaps that would be your assumed psychic insight…quite a few locals suffer such presumption.
I had a good look at FBB, their membership, their foundation date, their mission statement and their services. I say- More power to them and I wish them well.

That does not change the fact that they are recent, embryonic, do not fit anything like what the OP sought and are yet to be tested by time and crisis as the SA and other longstanding organizations have been.

It’s not about a “perfect fit” it’s about coming close…or even being able to get your leg in the pants.

“And you might not want to look at these either:”

1/ These are not secular agencies they are journal articles.

2/ Your right…At 25 bucks just to download each journal article I’ll leave it to you to cite what you believe to be pertinent.

Bottom line-

Still not one secular agency put forward that comes anywhere near what the OP sought and described-

“an organization like the Salvation Army, but without the "salvation" part. Does anyone know of any good national secular groups that accomplish the same general mission, without the preaching?”…” a national group that did things like focus on the plight of the homeless and the imprisoned at the local level, without the religious baggage that often comes with it”


No candidates and no preparedness to discuss why this might be the case.

[LAGC]

35. Well, personally, I find it alarming.

That there exists no secular version of the Salvation Army.

I know a good friend who served a short time in prison who received one of the S.A.'s "care" kits -- just some basic hygiene items: some soap and toothpaste and the like. He commented on how thoughtful that was, until he read the enclosed message. They didn't send him the package out of the goodness of their hearts, but only as a way to "spread the good word" about Jesus. Surely, secular humanists can put together something of a similar effort, perhaps enclosing an inspirational message of hope, without the religious strings attached.

Maybe I should start something... of course I've never been big on being a salesperson and raising funds. Don't have the network of red kettles and bell-ringers like the S.A. does. But I could start with a Facebook group and solicit donations and go from there... "give a little bit of hope and help to those most desperately in need -- the indigent and the forsaken." Something along those lines. I'll have to put some thought into it this weekend.

[HuckleB]

38. It very much exists on a local basis.

Of course, most of what is done is on a local basis. Just because a few national organizations are well known, well, that doesn't mean much in the real world.

[darkstar3]

39. Oh, but don't you see,

good advertising is the hallmark of a good charity. Forget the fact that advertising eats money that could go to help people...:eyes:

[HuckleB]

40. Alas, I am starting to see that.

:argh:

[ironbark]

41. I don’t believe anyone should be surprised or alarmed

There is a fundamental difference and distinction between organizations like the Salvation Army and those secular agencies listed so far.

To do the kind of work the Salvation Army does requires community- local and national. Religion has demonstrated itself capable of building such community on innumerable occasions…wether it is for purpose built communes/ monasteries/ convents or wether it is to facilitate charities and social services.

Atheists do not have an ideology upon which to found or support such communities.
Secular Humanists and Socialists do have an ideological foundation upon which to found such communities, and, since the French revolution have made innumerable attempts at doing so. None of the communes have survived, all of the initial charitable ventures have passed and new charitable organizations have arisen. The key features of contemporary secular charities are that they provide services such as emergency aid, relief, or housing or other one off/specific needs.

What you don’t generally find in secular charities is the day to day coalface local support to homeless, hungry, aged, youth, drug addicted, disabled…which is what the SA/Churches do. Beyond such primary care is the secondary and informal network of care provided by the communities of faith themselves…and that cannot be measured.

“Maybe I should start something…”

Maybe you should. If you do bear in mind that the opportunity and the attempts have been made before…and yet, as this thread clearly demonstrates, there is no secular agency out there performing a parallel role to the SA.

[HuckleB]

49. More BS.

If you're claims were true, there would be no non-religious national organizations of any kind.

Unfortunately for your claims, there are many.

End game.

[ironbark]

55. When you misrepresent what I said you do indeed provide "More BS"

"If you're claims were true, there would be no non-religious national organizations of any kind."

Cite the "claims" you believe lead to that false conclusion.

I have allready stated that secular charities exist and spoken to their general key features-
"The key features of contemporary secular charities are that they provide services such as emergency aid, relief, or housing or other one off/specific needs."

"Unfortunately for your claims, there are many."

Never claimed otherwise. Your falsification of my pov does not serve yours.

[HuckleB]

36. Clearly, telling the truth is not exactly your priority.

Nor is understanding that SA and other national organizations are actually dwarfed by local organizations.

Now, if you can actually respond to the actual content of my post, well, I doubt that will happen. But if you do...

Oh, and, Catholic orgs in Australia is your answer?

:rofl:

[ironbark]

42. And of course you will back the slur with example, quote or cite?

“Nor is understanding that SA and other national organizations are actually dwarfed by local organizations.”

That’s a possibility…but one that reason would demand some evidence of.
So far you offer nothing but the bold assertion…no organizational names…not even a ball park figure on memberships.

“Now, if you can actually respond to the actual content of my post,”

Let’s see now

25# Your four links proved not to fit OP criteria at all….not even slightly.
29# “How many charities "like" the Salvation Army exist at all?” Answered- Secular=none
And the three ‘Journal’ links posing as secular charities that you had to pay to read.

If you believe there is some central point I have not addressed then by all means put it up.

“Oh, and, Catholic orgs in Australia is your answer?”

Yes, and lets be reminded of your question-
“How many charities "like" the Salvation Army exist at all?

I did not presume (without a search) that the “like” organizations in Australia are duplicated in the US, The Brotherhood of St Lawrence is not.
But, while your still rolling around laughing, here is the link to the other ‘Catholic org’ I mentioned-
Society of St. Vincent de Paul USA
http://www.svdpusa.org/
Program service expenditure- $5,978,237

It is an organization “like” the Salvation Army and answers your question.

What a pity no one can put forward any secular organization that answers the OPs question.

But perhaps when you have tallied up all the separate and discrete secular organizations (membership,recourses and expenditure) and provided the stats showing how the SA is "dwarfed by local organizations”...perhaps then....we can all stop laughing.

[HuckleB]

47. You offered anecdotes.

If you looked into the studies I offered, you'd see that you are offering nothing but BS.

And you've offered no evidence for any of your ludicrous claims.

[ironbark]

56. I admire the way you hasten from one shifting sand to another

First it was a slur on truth telling...and you could not cite/substantiate.

Then you call for me to “actually respond to the actual content of my post” and I invite-
“If there is some central point I have not addressed then by all means put it up”
But again you have nothing to put forward.

You suggest-
“You offered anecdotes”

But you can’t say what they are.

“If you looked into the studies I offered,”

Already answered. At $25 per study if you think there is something pertinent therein then quote it. But don’t expect me to pay for your pov.

“you'd see that you are offering nothing but BS.”

Ah huh. On the basis of an unseen argument that costs $75 all up my argument is “nothing but BS.”
That’s convincing.

“And you've offered no evidence for any of your ludicrous claims.”

Go right ahead and identify my “ludicrous claims” and I will defend my pov.

But as long as you keep it vague, rely on inference, innuendo, oblique reference and keep shifting from one foot to another across hot sand…you should be safe.

[HuckleB]

65. Now you accuse me of doing what you do.

:rofl:

Your agenda is clear, and your sole focus on pushing something that you can't support is clear.

Keep spinning.

[ironbark]

68. You make of me a prophet

56#
“But as long as you keep it vague, rely on inference, innuendo, oblique reference and keep shifting from one foot to another across hot sand…you should be safe.”

“Your agenda is clear,….”

But you can’t make other than oblique reference to it? ;-)
Can’t say? Can’t stipulate?


“… and your sole focus on pushing something that you can't support is clear”

“Pushing something”? Well that’s precise isn’t it? ;-)

The “agenda” and the “something” are both “clear” but you cannot utter a single word to identify or stipulate.

Your reliance on vague inference, innuendo and oblique reference is masterful.

Obscurism suits you ;-)

[darkstar3]

46. What you really have to ask yourself is,

why is ANY national charity with an advertising budget supposedly better than a slew of local charities dedicated to working hard in their communities with or without advertising?

[HuckleB]

48. Exactly.

[Iggo]

34. Yes, I do. (n/t)

[Dorian Gray]

43. There are plenty of charitable organizations

that don't have a religious mission. I prefer to donate to local organizations rather than national organizations.


Is there a specific kind of org you want to donate to? One that fights poverty? One that promotes the arts? Animal related? Disaster relief? Children's issues? Specific illnesses? There are so many variable types of charitable organizations, it's good to pick a cause close to your heart before you start looking at which orgs to donate to. It will narrow the field down.

[beam me up scottie]

50. The United Way?

They're both local and global, you choose where your money goes.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

51. The Carter Center.

www.cartercenter.org

[Manifestor_of_Light]

58. Also Habitat for Humanity.

You can find local non-religious charities if you look. They are out there.

[darkstar3]

61. Habitat starts each day with a prayer to one specific deity named Jesus.

That's why I didn't stick with them.