Why is the Roman Catholic Church constantly compared to nation states and even political parties?

[Cleobulus]

I find this illuminating in the mindset of those who defend the Hierarchy of the RCC to the point of ridiculousness. Indeed, it seems, with the stridency of claims of "Anti-Catholicism" that I've seen this before, and still do now in another context.

How many of us were called Anti-American when we criticized President Bush on the two Wars, how many are called Anti-Democrats because we oppose Obama on the Afghanistan war or other issues?

In addition, the entire comparison between being an American and being a Catholic is stupid, shortsighted, and downright idiotic. First, we have COMPULSORY taxation, tithes to the Church though, are completely voluntary. Leaving the country because you don't like what it does is difficult if you don't have the means, whereas leaving the Church is rather painless in comparison. You would have to get a visa in another country, apply for permanent residency, and then apply for citizenship. You can't just become Stateless, unless you want to live within an airport for 20 years.

Leaving the Church is pretty much as simple as not showing up to services, finding another Church that more closely matches your beliefs, etc. Not to mention that when the U.S. government does something we don't agree with, we do have the power to kick the assholes out if enough of us want to do it. The RCC on the other hand is more structured like an Absolute Monarchy or Dictatorship, the common parishioners have little influence over the Church as a whole.

[Captain Hilts]

1. The Vatican was the FIRST true 'global policeman' i.e. they wrote and executed international law -

ever wonder why they speak Portuguese in Brazil? The Vatican decided!

[iris27]

2. "more structured like an Absolute Monarchy or Dictatorship"

Indeed.

During the GWB years, when my fundamentalist Republican brother asked me, "why don't you just leave if you hate America so much", I said, "Because I'd rather work to get these fuckers voted out and restore this country to an America I can be proud of."

But as a Catholic, you don't get a vote. And I don't see many of them out protesting in front of their archdiocese, either.

[beam me up scottie]

4. Most of my childhood friends are catholic.

Some had their kids baptized, some didn't, but none of them attend church except for weddings and funerals.

Technically, non-participation is not considered an organized protest but I expect their kids' kids will be even LESS catholic.

Being catholic is hard enough, being a catholic teenage girl is hell on earth, who can blame them for not wanting their kids indoctrinated?

[iris27]

6. Non-participation is a pretty legitimate protest...they're no longer helping

fund the corruption.

I'm mainly thinking of the folks who say they prefer to remain Catholic because no other church believes in transubstantiation quite as literally, or doesn't have all 7 sacraments, or just lacks some of the ritual they find comforting. I'm A-OK with that...but then they need to be up in the faces of the establishment demanding action, demanding change. If they're content to sit and disagree quietly from their pew, and still drop money in the collection plate, that makes them complicit IMHO.

(I also try to point out to them that there ARE rogue Catholic groups who aren't recognized by the Vatican...some of them even have *gasp* women priests!)

[beam me up scottie]

8. I agree.

In my hometown, family matriarchs seem to be the last hold-outs, once their influence (and in many cases - bullying) is gone it would be nice to think that catholic churches in rural America will just dry up and blow away.

I can dream, can't I?

[My Good Babushka]

3. Because the State of The Vatican City

as it is called, is a sovereign city state. The pope is the head of the government, and they have enormous political influence all over the world. They even have their own bank.
I don't know what comparisons you are talking about. But I don't really care for a sovereign city state that protects pedophiles over children.

[paulsby]

5. Because the Vatican City is both the head of the church AND a nation in and of itself

it is a sovereign nation, albeit entirely surrounded by the nation of italy.

[stray cat]

7. Because it is?

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Why is Monaco compared to nation states?

It's ruled by a hereditary prince who never becomes a king - kind of a half-assed monarchy if you ask me. It's so small you could walk across it in a day. It doesn't even have its own currency or language. It's not a real country at all!

[Cleobulus]

10. So now the argument is that all Catholics are citizens of Vatican City?

[trotsky]

11. I tend to think of being a liberal Catholic like being a liberal Republican.

You disagree with most of the church/party's policy, but there are some core issues that you hold dear. You despise the church/party's leadership, especially at the top, but think your local church/party org stay true to your values. You could leave the church/party, but secretly you are afraid of identifying with a smaller church/party that might not have the name recognition or popularity you are used to. (Or maybe like certain Republicans - e.g., Lincoln Chafee - your family and childhood are so associated with the church/party that you simply can't bring yourself to leave it.) So you slap on your blinders, tell yourself that the leadership will eventually come around, and keep giving your time and/or money to feed the beast.

[rug]

12. It has a flag.

:patriot:

[Cleobulus]

13. I think that, by itself, illuminates all that is wrong with the Church...

its half Gold, for crying out loud, what does that tell you the Vatican actually values?

[rug]

14. It's yellow. It has an interesting history.

http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/f017rpPapalFlag.htm

[Cleobulus]

15. Hmm, interesting, of course being an ex-Catholic myself...

I recognize neither the temporal nor spiritual primacy of the Papacy, indeed I find the flag to be even more offensive now than just thinking of it as a symbol of greed, add arrogance to it.

[rug]

16. I find all flags offensive.

[Cleobulus]

17. It depends on the purpose of the flag and what it symbolizes.

Not to mention the actions of those who carry the banner, so to speak.

Not all flags can be equally offensive, after all.

[Old Troop]

18. The Vatican is a country with UN membership

[Cleobulus]

19. It has "observer" status, and again, not all Catholics are citizens of Vatican City...

so its not relevant to the discussion.