I wonder how many people profess to be religious, talk the talk, etc., but really don't believe a

[raccoon]

word of it. I suspect a great many.

I KNOW there are many who profess to be religious, and really DO believe what they say they believe.

But I think there are a great many who don't, who just go along to get along, who pretend to be religious because of social pressures, maybe because their church is a good place for networking for their business/job, because all their family members go, because there is, especially in certain locations, quite a stigma against being an atheist, agnostic, etc.

On edit: I'm not saying this makes them "bad." In some areas, the church is about the only social outlet there is.

[nxylas]

1. I don't think it really matters

A person's outward actions matter more than their innermost beliefs. What does it matter whether the person volunteering at a homeless shelter (to give an example of a positive action) or waving a "God Hates Fags" placard outside a gay bar (as a negative example) is doing it because they really believe it's God's will or because all their friends are doing it? The end result is the same.

[raccoon]

2. Good point. Someone said once on this board that religion didn't really change what

a person was. If they were nice or an asshole (or whatever in between), their being religious made no difference.

[RKP5637]

5. Although I think some that are real assholes use it as a justification for

their actions, might even gravitate toward a particular one for just that reason...

[nxylas]

8. CS Lewis said the same thing

"If the divine call does not make us better, it will make us very much worse. Of all bad men religious bad men are the worst." - Reflections on the Psalms, p.32.

[RKP5637]

3. I suspect a great many too. Some do church IMO out of habit from

having gone as a kid, don't really question it, and as you mentioned a great many for the reasons you outlined.

[TlalocW]

4. I recently read an article

Where the guy was comparing religion to the experiments in the 1960s where people kept delivering more and more powerful shocks to a subject even after the subject started screaming and even passing out. The subject was actually an actor, and no shocks were delivered. It said something about people willing to forgo their own ethics to appease an authority figure (the person directing the experiment, telling them to shock the subject).

Basically, it held the premise that even though most people do not agree with the loud religious people about a multitude of issues, the religious nutjobs still hold a position of authority in society, and they're so prevalent and loud that people will forgo their own ethical feelings about different issues - abortion, gay rights, even voting for Obama - and (at the least) remain silent about their feelings because of the perceived authority and power and followers they must possess.

TlalocW

[RKP5637]

6. Yes, similar to mob mentality... n/t

[ironbark]

12. The Milgram experiments had nothing to do with religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

In fact, given that the ‘authority figure’ was at times wearing a white lab coat and carrying a clip board, it might be prudent to consider what kind of ‘authority’ was being obeyed.

[TlalocW]

22. Never said it did

But he was making a connection between it as the experiments as well as America have authority figures - or perceived authority figures that tell people to do things against their own moral code.

TlalocW

[Jim__]

7. I think it would be difficult go to church and not believe a word of it.

We are all somewhat controlled by our circumstances. People who go to church are surrounded by believers. I think it is hard to be surrounded by people with a common belief, share most beliefs that these people have, and then not actually believe in one particular thing. Our environment has a lot to do with what we believe.

I sit next to someone at work who is very religious. He has doubts about his beliefs all the time, but when he talks to other religious people about those doubts, they help him to work on them, working on them with a view toward overcoming them.

Religion also entails a certain view of the world. To change your view is to literally have to change the nature of the world that you live in. I think it's hard to make that kind of change without talking to people about it. I'm not sure how most churches and most church communities would react if you told them you no longer believed.

I'm sure there are some people who do that. I just think most people in that situation (going to church every week) would try to believe.

[RKP5637]

9. I agree, it's akin to mass brainwashing, and those in doubt get help to

fall back into line by the more advanced brainwashed... There is nothing like peer pressure and fear of being ostracized to keep flocks in line... All of the dictators knew/know this well, including many many politicians. And the RW media. It's a very dangerous mindset and appears to be growing in this country. Gingrich knows how to play this stack of cards well, for example, IMO, as does Palin and the like...

I think we are living in dangerous times and this country is inbred and ripe with ignorance... And the desperate follow, often no questions asked, and as it progresses, just do as commanded.

[Jim__]

10. It's always easy to see the weaknesses in people we disagree with.

It is much more important to see the weaknesses in ourselves. Most of the weaknesses are human weaknesses.

[RKP5637]

11. I used to agree with these people, and I changed. n/t

[rug]

13. Probably fewer than the number of people who believe but don't follow those beliefs.

[JerseygirlCT]

14. Well, since at bottom that's something only they can know

I don't see how it really matters, you know?

Not up to me to say someone isn't really religious - how could I determine that? People find different things through their belonging to all sorts of communities.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

15. churches are about the only social outlet where I live.

But I'm not going to any of them.
I'll stay home and get close to nature working on my garden, thank you.

[ironbark]

17. Can it be assumed you have family, friends, social network?

Or are you content with your own company?

I find immediate family, a couple of close friends, work and a large garden fill my time and meet my needs.

But I recognise that some have none of the above and a church community meets their needs. God may or may not be a consideration in attending church for many people…for me, god, or at least the numinous, is in attending to the moss garden.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

26. not exactly.

I have a husband whom I have been with for 16 years. My parents and sister are passed on. I have a grown daughter who lives in Houston. I grew up in Houston and since I moved to the country, I have not really found a basis on which to meet people. I am retired. Sometimes I invite my friends over on weekends that live in Houston or Dallas but most people are so busy working they find it hard to get away.

I know that I need to make some friends. However, DH and I both went to college and have graduate degrees. And I'm not showing off. When I flipped open the piano and started playing some Chopin from memory I got called a "smart aleck" by a neighbor who was touring my house, which pisses me off greatly, due to the time and effort I've spent learning music for the last fifty years.

We talk the way we normally talk and still get called smart alecks. Anti intellectualism in redneck east TX. I inherited this house - it was in the family, so that's why I live here and rent out my house in Houston. We decided we had had enough when we were there during Hurricane Ike.

People want to know what church I go to. I wish I was impolite enough to say "Our Lady of None of Your Goddamned Business". We are not interested in going when they invite us to church, and they seem to be stunned. Even when I went to a book club meeting at the library an old lady with a big cross around her neck invited me to the Methodist church. She said "This building used to be the Methodist church, you know". I said, "Yes I know it used to be the Methodist church. My father's funeral was held here".

I see lots of women with metallic purses with a cross on the side in big rhinestones. Or a T shirt with bible verses on it. Or they wear silver cross charm bracelets and earrings. I see that and think, "Dang, that woman has a SERIOUS vampire problem".

DH and I met at a Unitarian church in Houston, and there sure aren't any of those around here.

We have gotten into a pattern where once every month or two we go to Houston or Dallas or OKC to go to a concert or go shopping for things we can't find here, or to see our friends.

One thing I have noticed because of the racist rednecks around here, is that all of our friends belong to one family that is black. The grandmother used to work for my grandmother as a maid. All the white folks around here are guarding their guns and hate Obama. Our congressman is a disgrace.

We're white and we don't have any white friends. But that is OK with me. Their are probably other white nonconformists around but they stay under the radar.

[iris27]

29. "Our Lady of None of Your Goddamned Business"

Nice.

My husband made me snort laughing when he recounted his similar response to my passive-aggressive uncle, who knows good and well that we're atheist, when said uncle asked him, "So, where do you guys go to church nowadays?"

Off the cuff, with a speed I could only dream of, he comes back with, "We attend the Church of the Fluffed Pillow."

:rofl:

[RKP5637]

20. +1, n/t

[ironbark]

16. “the church is about the only social outlet there is.”

YES! Precisely!

And if we set out to establish an alternative what could we offer?

Music hall?, Bar? Sports Club? Association?....?

Most alternatives are either age specific, needs specific,for singles, able bodied or they cost money.

For vast-vast numbers of people it is as you say- “the church is about the only social outlet there is”…and at church the most primal needs of >community< and >belonging< are met.

“…good place for networking for their business/job, because all their family members go”

YES!
Add to that list an infinite number of other opportunities and needs met-
Looking for a sober partner in a drug free environment.
Aged and infirm and just looking for conversation.
Disfigured or disabled and looking for an accepting environment that isn’t focused on looking cool and beautiful.
Adolescent from dysfunctional background needing mentoring and role modelling.
The opportunity to engage in meaningful service, social justice and charity.

The churches are a One Stop shop for a whole host of basic human needs.

And in some churches people will put up with all kinds of loopy theology because they are getting these primal communal needs met. It aint rocket science and I don’t understand the endless prove/disprove god arguments that go on >AS IF< that was the key to why people embrace religion.

If anyone wants to see religion diminish or vanish they had best come up with a better multi purpose communal environment.
Haven't seen one named, identified or proposed yet.

[Hello_Kitty]

24. I agree with you but I also think the "prove/disprove" argument is important.

Most defenses of religion are about its social utility - participation in organized religion (arguably) makes (some) people behave better and make positive contributions to their community. But they don't validate the belief itself. And because it's the loopy beliefs that are used to justify and exacerbate the bad stuff - tribalism, misogyny, authoritarianism, etc. - it's necessary to challenge them.

[TZ]

25. I've never been to church in my life

and I've found plenty of places where there was a STRONG sense of community and social bonds...Dancing for example. I can go to any number of places within an hour drive of my house and find friends and at the same time meet new people and have a good time.
None of my family goes to church or temple for that matter, yet none of us are Ted Kazynski type hermits.
So the idea that the church is THE ONLY and best social outlet is a HUGE MYTH. Most of us can easily replace it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. UU Churches can work for atheists.

My stepson who is a fundy told me twice in one day that "Atheists don't need a social outlet". I corrected him twice and told him that there are lots of atheists in UU churches.

He thinks he's a liberal because he is a Unitarian, doesn't believe in the Trinity.

[charlie]

18. Jean Meslier

Jean Meslier was born in Mazerny in the Ardennes. He began learning Latin from a neighborhood priest in 1678 and eventually joined the seminary; he later claimed, in the Author's Preface to his Testament, this was done to please his parents. At the end of his studies, he took Holy Orders and, on January 7, 1689, became priest at Étrépigny, in Champagne. One public disagreement with a local nobleman aside, Meslier was to all appearances generally unremarkable, and he performed his office without complaint or problem for 40 years.

When Meslier died, there were found in his house three copies of a 633-page octavo manuscript in which the village curate denounces organized religion as "but a castle in the air", and theology as "but ignorance of natural causes reduced to a system".

In his Testament, Meslier repudiated not only the God of conventional Christianity, but even the generic God of the natural religion of the deists. For Meslier, the existence of evil was incompatible with the idea of a good and wise God. He denied that any spiritual value could be gained from suffering, and he used the deist's argument from design against god, by showing the evils that he had permitted in this world. Religions, to him, were fabrications fostered by ruling elites; although the earliest Christians had been exemplary in sharing their goods, Christianity had long since degenerated into encouraging the acceptance of suffering and submission to tyranny as practised by the kings of France: injustice was explained away as being the will of an all-wise Being. None of the arguments used by Meslier against the existence of God were original, in fact, he derived them from books written by orthodox theologians in the debate between the Jesuits, Cartesians, and Jansenists: their inability to agree on a proof for God's existence was taken by Meslier as a good reason not to presume that there was compelling grounds for belief in God.

Meslier's philosophy is that of an atheist. He both denies the existence of the soul; and also dismisses the notion of free will. In Chapter V, the priest writes, "If God is incomprehensible to man, it would seem rational never to think of Him at all"; Meslier does think of him, however, for several hundred pages more, in which he calls God "a chimera" and argues that the supposition of God is not prerequisite to morality. In fact, he concludes that "(w)hether there exists a God or not (...) men's moral duties will always be the same so long as they possess their own nature".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Meslier

[RKP5637]

21. Thanks for posting this! n/t

[Odin2005]

19. It seem to me that most people are "functionally atheist".

That is, they act in their daily lives as if they did not actually believe in a "god".

[iris27]

23. Yup.

They're the people who flesh out seemingly contradictory stats like 90%+ people believe in a god, and 70% ID as Christian, but only 40% or so regularly attend church.

I have 2 coworkers like this...never heard word one about religion from them until Coworker A had a baby and mentioned that her mother-in-law wanted to get the kid baptized the next time they were up visiting family. Coworker B said, "Yeah...is it bad that my daughter is four and still not baptized? My mother gets onto me for not bringing her up in a church, but we just never bothered to find one when we moved here, and Sundays are so much more relaxing without having to worry about it."

[Manifestor_of_Light]

28. My mother's mother did not believe when she died.

She was born in 1898 and grew up in Mississippi, raised Baptist, married a Scotsman and they joined the Presbyterian church. Most of her life she lived in towns too little to have one, so she went to the Methodist church.

My mom told me that before grandmother died, she told mom that she didn't believe any of christianity, and that there was nothing after you died, you were just gone.

And she was DOWN with it!! No problem at all.

Mom and dad were the same way when they were facing death. Dad died in 2000, almost ninety years old; Mom died in 2002, a bit over eighty years old.

Didn't think there was anything after death but they were cool with it. They raised me Presbyterian and I went to a Presbyterian college but they weren't real serious about it. It was basically a social club for educated people.

[raccoon]

30. I've been hearing things like that a lot lately, about people who went to church all their lives,

then when they were near death, confessed to their loved ones that they didn't believe any of it.

If the stigma against nonbelievers is strong now, just imagine what it would've been like decades ago.

[iris27]

31. My father was one of these for many years; I didn't know it until much later.

When I was very young, he never went to church with us. Then my mom's younger sister got married and her husband joined the church and started attending confirmation classes. I don't know whether this spurred my mother into nagging Dad about church more, or whether Dad thought he'd get in on all the positive attention my mom's family was showering on my new uncle. Either way, the end result was that he decided to join and get confirmed. Until he and my mom divorced, he attended church with us, became the Cubmaster for the church's Cub Scout group, and even led the occasional bible class. Much later I learned that he'd never really believed any of it.

My uncle, on the other hand, came to exemplify "no zealot like a convert". He and my aunt were quite upset when I told him I no longer believed...though they did tell me they considered it a spiritual net gain, because his sister and her children were formerly "unsaved" but had just recently joined the church. Nice. :eyes: