Is There Room for a Secular Humanist in a Christian Church?

[Poiuyt]

Is There Room for a Secular Humanist in a Christian Church?


I went to church this past Sunday morning. The church’s choir, of which I was once a member, was putting on one of their big, semi-annual productions, this time performing Handel’s Te Deum. My friend Elizabeth, who is a member of the congregation and knowing that I would enjoy it, asked me to join her. It was magnificent, as I knew it would be. I had fun visiting with old friends and I felt great when I left. Still, I felt like an outsider.

I am not what you would call a traditional Christian. I think that Jesus must have been a wonderful man and one of the greatest moral philosophers in history. But I’m not sure I believe in all the supernatural aspects of Christianity, or any religion for that matter. The resurrection, the existence of heaven, even the existence of God himself are difficult concepts for me to swallow. They may be true, I don’t know. How could I know? How could anyone? I had a strong interest in science during my formative years and that trained me to be skeptical about the world. Lacking some evidence, some observation, or at least a logical case for its existence, I have trouble believing the mystical elements of religion.

I guess I’m what you’d call a secular humanist. I believe how we behave towards our fellow human beings is the most important aspect of our lives. My grandfather said that we were put on earth to make it a better place for everyone else and that’s the philosophy that I most identify with. The Church of the Golden Rule. It is certainly possible to behave in an ethical way without the promise of heavenly salvation or fear of damnation. It’s just a matter of knowing right from wrong and having a strong belief in human rights, equal opportunities for all, and judging a person by what’s in his or her head and heart.

I can’t help but have the feeling that if people knew how I really believed, I would not be as welcome at church as I currently am. If I were to go there alone, I’d feel like I was crashing a party that I hadn’t been invited to. Oh sure, everyone would be friendly towards me, but if they knew, they would probably look at me askance and think, “He’s not one of us.” Being a Christian is like being in a fraternity—a fraternity of people who believe that Jesus was the Son of God. While the members of the fraternity (the congregation) would no doubt be very nice to me, they would not consider me to be part of the family. That’s why I’m hesitant to attend church unless I’m invited. I know in my heart that I am an outsider. I am not a member of the fraternity. I have not received my invitation to the party.

I’m sure that there are others who attend this church who believe the same way I do, perhaps many more. I can’t say what’s in their hearts as they sit in the pews on Sunday mornings. Are they conflicted as to their purpose in attending or are they only there so that others can see them? I can only discuss my feelings.

Will I attend church again? Going to church, this church in particular, makes me feel good. The people, I feel, are what make this church special. I truly love the fellowship; getting together with good people who are on their best behavior is invigorating. These are people who are like me; I feel like I could connect with them outside of the walls of the church. The clergy are wonderful also—to me, they embody goodness and hope. When I talk to the minister, I can’t help but feel that, no matter what, everything’s going to be all right. It is an uplifting, comforting experience that I enjoy. Of course I’ll go back to this church. I may even rejoin the choir.

But I doubt that I’ll ever feel totally part of the family.

PS - I did go to a UU Fellowship for a while, but I feel much more comfortable at this traditional, yet liberal Christian church (Congregational - UCC). I guess it's because I was raised in a Methodist church and like all the old hymns. Even though I don't believe the supernatural elements of Christianity, I like it better than the new age stuff from the UU. I just take in what has meaning for me and ignore the rest. Is that bad?

[RKP5637]

1. Some feel this way and also belong to the brights. It is not incompatible with religion.

See http://www.the-brights.net/

[uppityperson]

2. My old father was/is a secular humanist, went to ucc 50 yrs

I didn't know this about him until recently. A while back I cornered him when one of the youngsters asked about the cross "ask grampa". He stammered out that it was to represent the cross Jesus was crucified on, then quietly murmured to me "i never believed a word of it".

My parents went to be part of a group of similar thinkers, for the fellowship, chosing this church because of its lack of totally closed mined preachiness.

Nothing wrong with what you are doing. If you enjoy it, it makes you feel good, then keep going.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

3. If it works for you, so be it. Personally, I think all religion is superstition

but if it makes you happy, good for you. I must admit that I find it curious that you would feel discomfort because those around you don't see things exactly the way you do but that's something you have to workout for yourself.

I think that's what I like about Buddhisim. You can believe in many Gods or none. It's not really relevant. And it's not the point!

[VAliberal]

4. Sure

Lloyd Geering's works may be of interest to you. John Shelby Spong's texts, particularly 'Why Christianity Must Change or Die' and 'A New Christianity for a New World,' Anthony Freeman's 'God in Us: A Case for Christian Humanism" and 'Little Book of Atheist Spirituality' by Andre Compte-Sponville also might be helpful.

Can a secularist, a humanist, attend a liberal church and find it of value or meaningful? I think yes.

[xchrom]

5. Try the episcopal church.

Most of the parishes are liberal and many practise an
'All are welcome at God's Table' .

The Eucharist -- and for me that's important.
After 9/11 - my little church shared the Eucharist
with members from a Mosque and it was lovely.
Not to mention they ordain women and openly
gay and lesbian folk.

[msongs]

6. hmmm our UU church has NO "new age stuff" and no hell either unlike your fave church nt

[sfwriter]

7. I'm a UU atheist...

I love it.

[ashling]

8. Checkout this church

First Presbyterian in Elizabethton, TN
http://www.fpcelizabethton.org/

Pastor: John Shuck
http://www.shuckandjive.org/

[jeepnstein]

9. Don't give up.

Let me start with saying I belong to and fully support the doctrine of a non-denominational Church of Christ. I believe that Jesus was no less than God made flesh to come to Earth to serve as a sacrifice for our sins, he lived, died, rose from the grave, and now sits at the right hand of God to serve as my advocate so I could receive the gift of eternal life. So there, I said it, now that that's out of the way here's what I think, as if it really mattered. It flies in the face of science and everything the World is telling me but I have my Faith. The Disciples didn't really buy into the whole thing either at first, then something happened that gave them the conviction to preach even in the face of hardship and certain death.

You enjoy the church, it's comforting to you, so why not attend? Any church worth its salt won't come on strong and start demanding doctrinal conformity as a price for admission to the service. That's not what the church is about after all. I'm not sure about taking part in a ministry such as a choir until you have taken some time to really sort out the whole subject of your faith. You have an issue with it or you wouldn't be saying what you are saying.

The Church is all about what the Bible is telling us. That's the heart of the matter. Some times it takes a bit of honest work and study to really get into what the Bible is saying as well as what it's not saying. What it doesn't say is every bit as important as what it does. It's not about politics, or government policy, or any of the earthly matters that clutter our day. The Church is a place about learning what the Bible is teaching and allowing us to grow in our spiritual walk.

Go to the church. Take the time to pray. Take the time to enjoy the fellowship. But if you want to reap its richest rewards dig in to the Bible as part of that experience. Don't be one of those people who just sit in a pew and expect to be spoon fed whatever they tell you.

[AlecBGreen]

10. +1

"Go to the church. Take the time to pray. Take the time to enjoy the fellowship. But if you want to reap its richest rewards dig in to the Bible as part of that experience."

[struggle4progress]

11. You can only resolve this according to your own good conscience

[JerseygirlCT]

12. You'd be perfectly welcome in my church

what exactly you believe is between you and God - including whether you even believe in God!

We share worship - but there's no dogmatic entry quiz. I'm Episcopalian, but I'd be surprised if you weren't able to find a UCC/Congregational church in which you'd find the same.

Are you willing to share the worship? (That is, not eager to disrupt things) Then I'd say go, and if you don't feel welcomed, keep looking. Congregations can be as different as people - sometimes it takes a little looking.

[ralph m]

19. Up here in Canada, the Anglican Church seems to follow a similar line of thinking

I'm a Unitarian atheist, which is probably the best fit for a secular humanist since there is no creed and just a requirement to follow a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning.".

But, since we have a small church community, we often work with the Anglican Church that's located downtown and has decades of experience managing programs dealing with poverty, drug addiction and the homeless. The Anglican priest says he has several atheists in his church, but his main concern is who is willing to help, not what new members believe. The antitheists who want to eradicate religion are generally middle class or better, and have no awareness of the long hours of volunteer work from many church members working in poor communities.

[JerseygirlCT]

36. That sounds right

There's no doctrinal obligation - as I think I said (can't remember what I've written from one moment to the next!), we say we share common worship, but honor individual discernment. The rectors I've had over the years either haven't asked, or know that I'm fairly heretical, and are fine with it. There's lots of room for questions.

And as you say, it's more about what you do and are willing to do.

[Angry Dragon]

13. It is not bad

If there is a god he gave you a mind to use, to seek answers that work for you. We all look at god differently, no two the same for we are all different and to blindly follow another is foolish for how do they know what is in your heart and soul.

Only your god would know what is truly in you.

[fishbulb703]

14. No, no matter what a christian says, they will always think they are better than you.

It is impossible to avoid the idea of moral superiority if you think you will be given the gift of eternal life and anyone who doesn't believe Jesus was God's son will not.

And no christian really believes a non-christian can go to heaven, that dogma is straight out of Jesus' mouth.

[iris27]

15. Well the original Unitarians believed Jesus' sacrifice saves all humanity regardless of whether

people believe in Him or not. I'm sure there are still Christians of this flavor in the UU church today. To me such a viewpoint begs the question, "then why put Jesus/Yourself through all that instead of snapping Your fingers and saying 'OK, all is forgiven'?"...but that's just me.

[Critters2]

35. Actually, that was the Universalists. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

37. Wrong

And wrong again.

Really, the stereotyping to be found here.

You haven't bothered to look very far if you really think you can so easily stereotype every Christian in that way.

I am a Christian. I believe in universal salvation. That is to say, there's no creed required, no loyalty oath, no necessity to believe that Jesus is God, or that Jesus even existed.

My faith doesn't make me your - or anyone's - moral superior. And I find it interesting that you think you can know what every Christian believes.

[gooey]

16. I can empathize.

I think that's the right word. I'm no scholar so bare with my word skills. I grew up being taught certain things about God and over time began to question them. First out of fear then out of liberation. Fear that I was going to go to Hell for being a homo. When I say liberation I mean as I've gotten older and learned more and more about truth-what it is and what it is not, what is true and what is not-it's allowed me to question freely knowing that if I question an idea or concept and it is false I will find out it's falsehood and if I question an idea or concept that is true then I will only find out it's truthfulness.

However, if I never questioned then I would still be believing in false religious ideas. But religion and God are not the same.

My belief in the existence of God(Defined as a supreme being with an infinite mind who transcends space and time...)has not only been reaffirmed but strengthened and enlightened.

I understand what you mean about the "feeling" you get from church. I used to get it. I haven't been in so long though I don't know if I still would. But I dare to say that "feeling" is exactly what it's about. Much like any other time groups of people get together based on a shared common belief or idea. There is an energy there. And let's face it, it's a more pleasant experience to be agreed with than questioned. Especially if you don't know the answers.

We all tend to surround ourselves with like-minded people. But that easy. Anybody can do that. The challenge is to relate to the unrelatable(s/p). Love the unlovable. Try to get to know the people who you most often have conflicts with-maybe at work or school or even family. I have found great rewards in doing this at my job.

[ralph m]

17. Yes you can be a secular humanist in many liberal churches, but...

you'll wear out your welcome fast if you're an atheist antitheist who believes that theists are delusional or at best compartmentalizing their beliefs.

Those of us who live a secular life without rituals and supernatural beliefs should mix with people in liberal churches (like the Unitarians) in order to be fully aware that religious people do not take an intellectual or analytical approach to their spiritual beliefs. They may say that they believe in God because they "feel" God's presence in their lives or something, and make no attempt to justify it further. Most of these people are just as rational as secularists...who are not completely 100% rational either if they have not eliminated all of their superstitious habits.

[iris27]

18. Why the need to go there?

I doubt anyone who'd feel themselves accurately described as "an atheist antitheist who believes that theists are delusional or at best compartmentalizing their beliefs" would even be considering joining a congregation.

[ralph m]

20. I noticed that you made the comment about what Unitarians originally believed

and I take this as implying that even Unitarian/Universalists are going to try to lead a secular humanist back into some kind of religious beliefs.

I think it's important that secular humanists are aware of churches that do not follow strict creedal beliefs because many are not going there to talk about religion and find others who believe exactly what they do; some are going to church for fellowship, or for taking some kind of social action. And, after spending a couple of years seeking out the secular equivalents to religion, the only thing that CFI or atheist organizations are interested in raising money for is bus and billboard ads to advance some kind of evangelical deconversion campaign. An atheist who wants to work on poverty or environmental action issues does not find a whole lot help from atheist and secular humanist organizations. Personally, I find that a liberal church with experience dealing with social problems is a far better direction to go in than try to reinvent the wheel with organized atheism.

[iris27]

21. My comment was refuting fishbulb's "no Christian really believes a non-Christian will go to heaven".

It was not an implication that UU's will "try to lead a secular humanist back into some kind of religious beliefs". I thought that was fairly clear given the context.

IMO, the "secular equivalent to religion" is usually found in social justice movements, not "atheist organizations", because that's not the point of the latter. They're usually formed to help influence public awareness about what atheism is and that atheists are just regular people, not chortling, mustache-twirling villians. Atheists who want to work on poverty or environmental action issues usually seek out poverty eradication or environmental action groups...and surprise...many of these are not based in any religion. Personally, I find "movement-focused" groups like these more effective in dealing whatever social problem they've focused on than churches are with their broader approach...at least from what I've seen in my area.

[ralph m]

22. Okay, I get it now, but

you're confusing Unitarian with Universalism. I'm pretty sure that before the two churches amalgamated, the Unitarians did not follow a belief in universal salvation....especially before 100 years ago. The story of Charles Darwin comes to mind, since his growing agnosticism upset his wife Emma because she thought that he was risking his salvation because of his theory of natural selection and skepticism about the existence of God.

Yes, atheists can work on social issues through social justice movements, but when it comes to local action, the downtown churches have the most experience dealing with the problems. There are some fundamentalist churches that focus on social justice, but unfortunately, their main purpose is evangelism, rather than trying to provide aid. For that reason, I support the work of the liberal churches.

[darkstar3]

23. In the realm of charity, experience does not equate to skill.

but when it comes to local action, the downtown churches have the most experience dealing with the problems.
Leaving aside for the moment the old argument of "why isn't skid row any better?"...What makes you think that charity requires experience?

[iris27]

24. Huh...I guess I've had it backwards all this time.

On further research, it looks like Unitarians, at least in origin, were Christians who didn't follow the doctrine of the Trinity or believe Jesus was divine. And stepping back to look at the names, it makes sense for the Universalists to be the ones who believed in a "Jesus's crucifixion was for all" style of Christianity.

I don't think there's anything wrong with supporting the work of liberal churches (or even fundamentalist churches, as long as they're not primarily evangelizing, like you said).

But I wouldn't say that they're superior to (or necessarily have greater longevity than) community poverty groups either. In my area the choices are pretty much between a "community action agency" with volunteers from all sorts of faith backgrounds, and a fundamentalist charity that has "evangelistic" right in its name. Both have been around for 30-40 years.

[ralph m]

26. The UU's have changed so much that their original doctrines are irrelevant.

On their website it says:"We have historic roots in the Jewish and Christian traditions, but today individual Unitarian Universalists may identify as Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, Humanist, Pagan, or with other philosophical or religious traditions. We promote reason and tolerance in our communities and embrace a free and responsible search for truth and meaning."

It amounts to trying to find unity around shared values rather than shared beliefs.

[iris27]

29. Irrelevant to a secular humanist seeking their company today, definitely.

But growing up Lutheran will make one a bit of a nerd for theological history, so I find it interesting. :)

[ralph m]

31. What attracted me to the Unitarian way of thinking is

the concept of uniting around shared values and goals, rather than shared beliefs...which is considered essential by other religious communities. Social justice issues can involved people with a whole range of philosophical beliefs, although UU's do tend to clique into subgroups of humanist, pagan and Christians.

After spending a couple of years getting actively involved with CFI and online atheist groups, the biggest surprise to me was how much so called freethought groups started looking like religions! I guess this is due in large part to the fact that many atheists who feel motivated to join together in atheist groups are heavily influenced by New Atheist dogma that religion and belief in God is harmful (or mostly harmful on balance), belief in God is a delusion, religious education of children is child abuse, the theory of evolution is incompatible with theism, belief in God is a scientific claim that can be examined with empirical evidence, etc....the point is that the aggressive antitheism of Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens, leads towards an argument for cutting off or at least limiting contact with religious people. Promoting atheism and combating religion gets priority over attitudes on politics and social policy. And that was my jumping off point, as I've explained to some atheist activists, I would rather form common cause with theists who share my social views, than atheist Ayn Rand followers or Nietzchean anti-humanists.

[Cleobulus]

25. As a humanist myself, simply cannot get over the central concept in Christianity...

of "original sin". Frankly I find it to be one of the most abhorrent and evil of their beliefs.

[ralph m]

27. Taken seriously, it is a blatant anti-humanist doctrine....

You're all worthless and deserve death or eternity in hell for your inherited sin, but I'm such a nice guy I'm going to save a few of you who follow orders without question....at least that's how the salvation doctrine sounded to me when I was growing up in fundamentalist Christianity. But it's worth noting that humanism started in the Christianity of the Renaissance that wanted a positive, optimistic message. They didn't deny Original Sin, but they did try to ignore it as much best they could.

[Critters2]

28. You won't find talk about original sin in most UCC churches.

I don't believe in the traditional concept of original sin. Neither do any UCCs I know.

[Cleobulus]

30. That brings up the question though, what did Jesus die for? n/t

[ralph m]

32. This whole ransom sacrifice doctrine is what drove me away from Christianity

Being punished for sins of distant ancestors is nonsensical enough without adding punishing a scapegoat as atonement. Maybe it's better not to ponder these doctrines too deeply.

[Critters2]

34. I felt the same way. Then I read the works of Rene Girard.

Scapegoating is precisely the problem. Jesus tried to put an end to it.

[Critters2]

33. Jesus died to open our eyes to the violence and scapegoating

in which we all participate, and to help us to stop those destructive behaviors. Read Rene Girard. Jesus' death had nothing to do with "original sin", except that the real original sin is the violence on which human culture is founded. Oh, and God neither wanted nor caused Jesus' death. Jesus was killed by an angry mob in Jerusalem and no one else.

[JerseygirlCT]

39. Nor do I - and Episcopalian.

not in that traditional sense, anyway.

I do think we're all flawed, and imperfect.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. Aside from the fundamentalist belief

in a literal garden of Eden story, the idea of original sin is really more that we're all imperfect, and apt to miss the mark. It's just an acceptance of our own flaws - so as to be more forgiving of the other guys'.