Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Chris Hedges' Hangup on Religion

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU
 
davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 01:38 PM
Original message
Chris Hedges' Hangup on Religion
Chris Hedges is one of the best, one of the most morally useful, writers we have. He's free of loyalty to political party or dogma. He knows war first hand and describes it without flinching. He's an almost ideal gadfly to our corporatocracy. But he has a hangup on religion that holds him back.

Hedges will tell you that he has no use for fantasies about life after death. He'll profess no interest in gods or prayer or a divine plan or anything of the sort. He's perfectly aware of what lies on the negative side of the balance sheet for religion (or what he would call institutional religion), how it trains blind obedience, how it diminishes the value of life before death, how it shifts responsibility from people to imaginary beings, how it divides groups of people who kill in its name. But when you ask what, then, lies on the positive side of the account for religion that justifies supporting it, Hedges' answers range from slim to silly.

One answer he gave me was that there are mysteries in the world, including emotions like love. Well, of course there are. But, I told him, I make no claim to having plumbed the depths of every emotion and having perfectly understood it, I just have no use for god or heaven. Does one have to claim omniscience to be an atheist? I thought only God claimed that!

But Hedges will tell you that it's wiser to be an agnostic than an atheist because you just don't know. But, of course, no one who says this means it quite that simply. If I were to be "agnostic" on whether the world is secretly run by demons dwelling in the livers of antelopes and every other imaginable lunacy, I wouldn't have time to do any substantive being of an agnostic. I could just say "I'm an agnostic on all fantastical BS" and leave it at that. But when it comes to whatever it is that Hedges and others reluctant to fully part with religion mean by "religion," they want to see some agnostical activity going on, specifically lamentation of the passing of religion. I don't think engaging in such activity tends to make one more or less arrogant or humble.

Hedges' latest article is called "After Religion Fizzles, We’re Stuck with Nietzsche." He opens with five good paragraphs on damage done, both by major religious institutions and by religiosity in general. Then he writes:

"But I cannot rejoice in the collapse of these institutions. We are not going to be saved by faith in reason, science and technology, which the dead zone of oil forming in the Gulf of Mexico and our production of costly and redundant weapons systems illustrate. Frederick Nietzsche’s Übermensch, or “Superman” -- our secular religion -- is as fantasy-driven as religious magical thinking."

Setting aside the dubious idea that U.S. culture today is driven by anything resembling Nietzsche's Übermensch, how in the world did we leap from the collapse of religion to "faith in reason, science, and technology"? Of course, we have too much of that as well, but it's not all we have or all we could have. We aren't limited to religion or THAT. And it's not the central explanation of the oil spill or the wars, given that a majority of us oppose the policies that have led to both. We have allowed our "leaders" to act against our interests, as if they knew best, a habit encouraged by religion, not science.

Of course, we need to be respectful of nature. Of course, we need to be humble in the face of ecosystems (and emotions) that we do not begin to understand. Of course, we need to stop trying to conquer the world and behaving as if we were its gods. We need to outgrow "faith in reason, science, and technology" just as we need to outgrow faith in religion. And we are doing so. Suggesting that we must choose one catastrophic course or the other, religion or scientific domination, does not help our progress. I'm not making an argument about whether we should be optimistic or pessimistic -- I think either, in so far as it distracts from action, is morally inexcusable. I'm suggesting that if we want to progress or even survive it will be through overcoming both religion and faith in technology.

In his final address to the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Martin Luther King Jr., said:

"There is nothing wrong with power, if power is used correctly. You see, what happened is that some of our philosophers got off base. And one of the great problems of history is that the concepts of love and power have usually been contrasted as opposites, polar opposites, so that love is identified with a resignation of power, and power with a denial of love. It was this misinterpretation that caused Nietzsche, who was a philosopher of the will to power, to reject the Christian concept of love. It was this same misinterpretation which induced Christian theologians to reject the Nietzschean philosophy of the will to power in the name of the Christian idea of love. Now, we've got to get this thing right. What is needed is a realization that power without love is reckless and abusive, and love without power is sentimental and anemic. Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice, and justice at its best is power correcting everything that stands against love."

I imagine Hedges agrees with that. But he should notice that King is suggesting a choice other than science or religion, one just as available to an atheist as to an agnostic or to a religious believer like King. All being agreed on the wisdom of such a course, the question of whether or not to keep dragging the vestiges of religion down through the centuries becomes a separate question, to be decided based on whether religion does more harm or good.

Hedges goes on to say that there are "religiously motivated people toiling in the inner city and the slums of the developing world" and that they "remain true to the core religious and moral values ignored by institutions." What values? Hedges lists "individual responsibility" and "compassion, especially for the weak, the impoverished, the sick and the outcast." But, of course, most people who have been responsible and compassionate have been religious for the same reason that most people who have been servile and cruel have been religious: most people, period, have been religious. In fact, polling on political questions at least begins to suggest that the most responsible and compassionate Americans today, on average, are atheists. We're less likely to support injustices like wars and torture. Whether we're more responsible and compassionate through all aspects of our lives, I do not know, but I haven't seen any evidence that we're less so -- just antiquated fearmongering about how morality will disappear if religion does.

Hedges continues his effort to equate the loss of religion with moral decline:

"We are rapidly losing the capacity for the moral life. We reject the anxiety of individual responsibility that laid the foundations for the open society. . . . The great religions set free the critical powers of humankind. . . . eligious thinkers were our first ethicists. . . . These religious institutions are in irreversible decline. . . . But don't think the world will be a better place for their demise. As we devolve into a commodity culture, in which celebrity, power and money reign, the older, dimming values of another era are being replaced. . . . We live in the age of the Übermensch who rejects the sentimental tenets of traditional religion. The Übermensch creates his own morality based on human instincts, drive and will. We worship the 'will to power' and think we have gone 'beyond good and evil.' We spurn virtue. We think we have the moral fortitude and wisdom to create our own moral code."

And here is where religion holds Hedges back. We must, of course, find the moral fortitude and wisdom to create our own moral code to address our own moral circumstances. We will find most of that wisdom in lessons from the past, of course, and most of it from past religious observers. But we will be hindered by keeping alive almost anything we meaningfully refer to as religion, anything suggesting deference to a greater authority than the accumulated wisdom of humanity. We must be free of that if we are to envision what we need to become. For all of his failings, this is what Neitzsche attempted to do, and to some degree succeeded in doing. Hedges knows that Nietzsche condemned all the undesirable traits of modern culture that Hedges himself laments. But Hedges lays the blame, nonetheless, at Neitzsche's doorstep as an enemy of religion.

And there's something wrong with the timing of Hedges' tale of woe. The cultural damage he describes is all current, while the loss of religion that he fears will cause it is substantially in the future. The vast majority of Americans today are more religious than Hedges himself is. We can't fix their shortcomings by making them religious. Instead, we have to make them -- and ourselves -- more responsible and compassionate in a way that, indeed, moves beyond existing ways of thinking.

Without religious beliefs, we might still have violence, but Germans would not have made the worst of Nietzsche in Nazism. Without religious beliefs we might still have oil drilling, but we wouldn't have senators telling us they don't care because it is the next life that matters. And if Afghans and Iraqis did not belong to a different religion than most Americans, we wouldn't bomb them and burn their babies with fire bombs and white phosphorous. Whether you agree with the views of the religious "extremists" or not, you have a moral choice: will you condemn the basis of their thinking or provide respectable cover for it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Without religion, there would be no morality? Atheists cannot be good and moral people?
One cannot be a good person just for the sake of being good...without fear of eternal damnation if one sins?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. They can, but they are dwindling.
Sad to say. Just take a look at the incessant attacks on people of faith, right here on DU. I really admire the atheists "of old" who were amicable, educated, smart and rational people willing to debate but live and let live. Their beligerent and increasingly meanspirited progeny, I don't have much use for.

I miss the old guys.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Attacking religious faith has nothing to do with immorality.
Why do religious people think that religion is the fount of morality? It's not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. You're broadbrushing.
Not all religious people think that morality only exists in the confines of religion. I am one. Your thoughtless, broadbrush statements undermine your credibility on this issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. Hardly. . . "That Medieval Christendom was a moral setback is universally accepted" ...
outside the Catholic Church and is the opinion voiced by Will and Mary Durant.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #30
59. You have a love of fiction. Here is what Durant actually says: "All in all, the picture we form
of the medieval Latin Church is that of a complex organization doing its best, despite the human frailties of its adherents and leaders, to establish moral and social order, and to spread an uplifting and consoling faith, amid the wreckage of an old civilization and the passions of an adolescent society."

Medieval Christendom produced Occam's razor and the experimental method of Roger Bacon; it produced brilliant technical progress in glass and metallurgy and architecture; it then, as before and after, was a complicated amalgam of people with different skills and inclinations, some quite wonderful people and others decidedly not so: here a torturer, there a public hospital
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. Well, let's see
why don't you check how many major religious denominations (starting with the RCC) hold the position that one cannot lead a truly moral life without religion and the guidance of god, and how many reject that position. Then get back to us about "broadbrushing".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
61. So your definition of 'good and moral' has to include 'does not attack religions'?
Wow, you have a large sense of privilege. Other people think goodness and morality is about justice, empathy, helping those in need, that kind of thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. The poster objected to broad-brushing, so you fabricate a dictate "do not attack religion"
The broad-brushing is bigoted and intolerant

Everyone, regardless of POV, can learn something from discussions based on careful factual examinations of specific events

But claims like David's "Without religious beliefs ... Germans would not have made the worst of Nietzsche in Nazism" are perfect examples of mere prejudice: there's no way anyone can grab the statement and shake it to test its empirical value; there are no facts connected with the statement, that can illuminate it and show it to be true in such-and-such a way and false in such-and-such a way. It comes, in some sense, purely from David's personal fantasies and supports David's personal stereotypes. The degree to which Nietzsche actually influenced the Nazis is open to some question, although we do know that Nietzsche's sister did promote the idea that Hitler was the "overman" of whom Nietzsche wrote. But let us suppose Nietzsche were a substantial influence on the Nazis; then it would be utterly ridiculous to blame religious belief for Nazism, since Nietzsche quite unequivocably scorns the Judeo-Christian ethic as contemptible slave morality, that demands the strong to respect the weak: it is true that the Nazis were eager to smash that ethic, and in fact one of the first steps in the Nazi consolidation of power was to outlaw Catholic political activism and to imprison Catholic activists -- which would be, I suppose, on David's view, just more evidence that the Catholics were responsible for Nazism
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #66
88. Reply #1 asked if atheists can be good and moral people
and the DUer to whom I replied said "They can, but they are dwindling ... Just take a look at the incessant attacks on people of faith, right here on DU." So they think that 'attacks of people of faith' on DU (and I think we have good evidence that it's the religions that are attacked on DU, not the actual people of faith, but many people of faith mistakenly take an attack on their religion as an attack on themselves) stop those atheists being 'good and moral'.

What broad-brushing are you calling bigoted and intolerant?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #88
91. The poster appreciated atheists who were "amicable, educated, smart and rational people"
and lamented those who are meanspirited, denied that "morality only exists in the confines of religion," and objected to broadbrushing

As I read your post, you regard those comments as bigoted and intolerant. Am I misreading you? Have I misread or misunderstood your post?

Perhaps you are asking what broad-brushing in this forum I regard as bigoted and intolerant? But I just pointed, in my prior post, to the last paragraph of David's OP, which is a typical example of the constant theme in this forum, blaming "religion" for the problems of humanity: in particular, I discussed the first sentence of his paragraph, noted it had no discernable empirical content, and provided some historical remarks suggesting how far off the mark it actually is. So I ask again, what is the basis for blaming Nazism on religion? In response, you seem merely to stare back empty-eyed and say, "What bigotry?" I don't so much care whether "religion" is to your personal taste or not, but I do think historical accuracy matters

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. You're joking, right?
Is that in the time of Christians "of old" that didn't attack atheists? Oops! I forgot. There was no such time.

What you have is a confirmation bias. Most atheists here say nothing about it. But they're under your radar. And the others "don't let you live?" WTF do you mean?

--imm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Not joking at all. And a cursory search of posts here
around atheism and criticism of religious people, will show you that I am right. Unfortunately here bigotry and hate for people of faith is the "acceptable" bigotry and I am not the first or only to notice it. I really hope it changes because it will not win Democrats any new friends, and stands to alienate many of those they already have.

Hate never works, from any quarter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Bigotry and hate?
I think you are projecting.

--imm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Exactly what I said.
When some lash out, without provocation from the targets of their ire, here against people of faith, what else can you call it?

I'll call it something else. Stupid. And fruitless. I, as a person of faith, have never attacked an atheist here based on their views and never would. But I've certainly seen plenty of it the other way, and for the life of me cannot figure out the urge to do so. It's counterproductive, definitely not progressive, and runs against just about everything for which I hold the participants on DU in esteem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. You are mistaking criticism of beliefs for attacks against persons, I think.
It's true that atheists tend to hold nothing back when criticizing religion and religious beliefs, which are really the subjects of their ire, not the people who hold those beliefs (any more than atheists are really the subject of your ire?).

Are you your religious beliefs, or are you separable from them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Agree . . . and this is a public forum . . . if one doesn't want to discuss religion --
and especially if one does not want to hear criticism of male-supremacist religion --

then it is hypocrisy to be posting here against such comments.

It's even more than that . . . . it's an attempt to try to shut down discussion of

male-supremacist religion and its immorality!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. If you acknowledge the Crusades or Witchburnings, you are a "bigot, filled with hate" . . .!!
It's simply an attempt to shut down any honest discussion of male-supremacist

religion, their wealth and their political influence.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I don't think 'a cursory search of posts' on DU
is really an effective way to gauge broad changes in attitudes among atheists.

On the other hand, it sounds like a great way to make an anecdotal case for whatever position one happens to hold.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. It sure will.
But I don't expect you to explore that. Let's pretend such vitriol doesnt exist here. That's much more convenient.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. I'd certainly be interested in seeing those you can bring to our attention . . .
Edited on Mon May-10-10 05:18 PM by defendandprotect
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. Should your observations of . . ..
"bigotry and hatred" not begin with male-supremacist religion, itself?

How about its war on nature -- ? "Manifest Destiny" sound familiar?

How about its war on women -- ? Which continues even today?

How about its war on homosexuals -- ? Continuing still today?

How about its war on democracy -- and equality?


Before you begin to throw stones, I think you should check out the many

glass houses you're overlooking.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. Y'know, I never really thought of Manifest Destiny as a religious concept
That's something to think about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Well, yeah
I hate people who try to shove their religious beliefs down my throat. I hate people who kill gays because they're gay. I hate parents who let their children die by praying for them when they are deathly ill instead of taking them to the doctor. I hate people who fly planes into buildings in the name of their "faith". I hate church officials who facilitate the rape and abuse of children for centuries.

It works for me...but for you, "faith" excuses all of that, and makes such people entitled to something warmer and fuzzier.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
37. Could you provide some links to these posts?
Especially the ones that show "bigotry and hate" for people of faith.

Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. "I'm not the first or only to notice it"
You would be the first and only to present evidence of it. If you did present evidence, that is. I've seen the "you guys are such bigots" debate here upward of two dozen times, and it always turns out to be over believers offended that people attacked ideas rather than having actually said something bigoted.

It's not an "acceptable bigotry" because it's not bigotry. The whole fracas always turns out to be over some weak-sauce victimization fantasy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #39
49. You have got to be kidding.
“You would be the first and only to present evidence of it.”

The primary method of attacking religious people and agnostics on this board is the falsification, fabrication and blatant lie regarding what they have actually said. It is a game of false accusation and smear that has been going here for ages and has been frequently EVIDENCED.

The objective is to create slur smoke-
“Anti-atheism bigotry is his religion and this is his church”

And never ever provide substantiation fire.

58#
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=241063&mesg_id=241283


59#
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=244610&mesg_id=245011
80#
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=244610&mesg_id=245126

67#
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=243764&mesg_id=244560

29#
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=241063&mesg_id=241112

37#
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=241063&mesg_id=241154

18#
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=247081&mesg_id=247141


270# ‘On Respect’
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=240069&mesg_id=241004

“I give up. I don't even care anymore. be happy in your certainty that you know it all. I give up caring about this anymore”

“Strawmen upon strawmen they are not helpfull and too much of them to get into details.”

“You make false assumptions about my opinions and present them as facts. If you want to know my opinions, ask, don't presume “

“Why such hostility? Why do you act like I belong to some enemy camp? What's the war about?”


Two of the above are non theists wondering WTF the personalised attacks/war is about.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. I don't know if you've spent time in other Internet forums
but those are the rules of engagement, here and elsewhere. People misrepresent each other's positions. Argument gets sloppy in the heat of battle. People make specious arguments and dumb, unsupportable claims. Everyone does this--atheists, agnostics, theists, liberals, conservatives, Marxists, free-marketeers, etc. etc. etc. It's a form of laziness, not a form of bigotry.

Most Internet posters are bad at arguing. That doesn't make them bigoted against the people they disagree with. This board is riddled with straw men of conservative positions, and there's usually no one here to rebut them. If you search through primary threads from 2008, you'll find people doing this to each other back and forth, and in a more vicious way than we usually have it here.

I know how frustrating it is to have your position misinterpreted or intentionally misrepresented. But misunderstanding--or arguing in bad faith, as the case may be--don't constitute bigotry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. The “rules of engagement” are to falsify and lie?
I’ve been on and off the Net across a number of forums for over a decade….no one has tried to tell me falsification/lie is ok because that’s the standard operating procedure.

“People misrepresent each other's positions. Argument gets sloppy in the heat of battle.”

Oh please. Spare me the apologetics. You asked for the “evidence” and I provided it in spades with 30 links to same in reserve and all you can tell me is it’s standard ““rules of engagement” Net practice.

No. It’s not “misrepresenting” or “sloppy in the heat of battle” argument.

It’s outright deliberate fucking lying about what the other has said on a sustained and consistent basis and it is driven by an open and overt bigotry towards all things religious.
Anyone with the most miniscule ethical foundation comes back to address ‘sloppy’ when asked to substantiate…liars, cheats and forgers just flee or spit on the request for evidence...need a dozen more links to prove it?

How many post links do you want from me to establish that false allegation, fabrication and refusal to substantiate are endemic devices employed by the anti religious on this board?

“People make specious arguments and dumb, unsupportable claims. Everyone does this…”

Don’t fudge and spin it…I’m not talking about “specious arguments and dumb, unsupportable claims”….I’m talking about blatant malicious lie…total fabrication of another’s pov…and completely baseless allegation topped by the consistent refusal to utter a single word of explanation, justification, substantiation.

“Everyone does this…”?

No, they don’t. You find me the post in which I have made a claim/allegation regarding another and refused point blank to substantiate.

“I know how frustrating it is to have your position misinterpreted or intentionally misrepresented. But misunderstanding--or arguing in bad faith, as the case may be--don't constitute bigotry.”

I note you say nothing to the links provided. They demonstrate not “sloppy” or “misrepresentation” but blatant lie and fabrication. One, two or three in isolation might represent “heat of battle” but there are DOZENS of them…and when taken/ viewed in the light of the accompanying refusal to return to the scene of the crime and either substantiate or retract>>>they are bigotry in the extreme.
They are clearly intended to slander and vilify the other via lie.

I’ve been on this board for 3-4 years and such falsification/fabrication denial of substantiation has been the hallmark of every protracted dialogue I have had with atheist participants.
And I stand prepared to link to the posts and threads to substantiate that assertion.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. How could I have guessed that you would make a straw man of my position?
How could I ever have known?

Make yourself comfortable, because this is going to take a while.

no one has tried to tell me falsification/lie is ok because that’s the standard operating procedure.

I never said that lying was okay. I said that it was very common to use straw men and that that tactic does not in itself denote bigotry. I said I have never seen evidence of the alleged endemic bigotry against the religious here, and you responded that it is manifest in the falsification of your positions.

You can go back and read post #51 for yourself, but to save you the trouble, I'll point out that I described straw men as "dumb," "specious," "unsupportable," "sloppy" and a form of "laziness." I described people who use them as "bad at arguing" and "arguing in bad faith." This you read as an apologetic paean to the straw man tactic.

I know how frustrating it is to have my position misrepresented because it has been done to me. And yet I don't think you're a bigot. I think you're wrong. I think you are every bit as locked into your position and eager to be outraged as the people you're arguing with. What is actually on screen doesn't usually matter.

You asked for the “evidence” and I provided it in spades

I read all your links and gave you my opinion of them collectively: they don't show bigotry. They're all examples of the straw man, which I don't consider bigotry. I could go through one by one and tell you whether I think each one was fair to you or not. IMO, some are and some aren't. But I disagree with your premise that making straw men is a form of bigotry. That tactic is used by people of every ideological stripe. If William F. Buckley misrepresents Noam Chomsky's opinion about the Vietnam War, is that an act of prejudice? Or is it just poor argumentation? The same is true when atheists use the tactic against theists, when theists do it to atheists, and when other posters here do it to you.

I’m talking about blatant malicious lie…total fabrication of another’s pov…and completely baseless allegation topped by the consistent refusal to utter a single word of explanation, justification, substantiation.

You are on no better ground when you misrepresent the positions of others. "Malicious lie" is your characterization, but I don't pretend to know whether straw men are done on purpose. Surely, when I present examples of you doing precisely the same to others, you will object that it's not the same. But it is.

You find me the post in which I have made a claim/allegation regarding another and refused point blank to substantiate.

From the "Priests abuse at the same rate..." thread:

In post #78, you complained that skepticscott had made up a position for you:

That’s funny…because I never claimed anyone held any kind of “moral highground”.

This is in itself a straw man. skepticscott said in #58 that the church made the claim of moral superiority on its own behalf. You shouted down an accusation that was not made against you. TZ, in #62, to which you directly replied, did not say that you made a claim of moral superiority. Were you telling a malicious lie about their positions? Were you honestly confused about what they were saying? Or were you just being sloppy?

From post #84 in the same thread:

yea…I know…this is R&T and the only thing religion ever does in relation to kids is fuck them up

This one is so vague and sarcastic that it might be no use to point out that none of your interlocutors in that thread said that. No one ever said that the only thing that matters is “priest fucks boy… Church covers up.” That is your mischaracterization of their posts. Everyone you were arguing with avowed that he or she indeed cared about other types of child abuse, and one pointed out that the reason the RCC got so much attention in R&T was that a) it is a religious institution and b) there is ongoing news about the RCC’s child abuse scandal.

You presented “priest fucks boy… Church covers up” in quotes, as if it was a direct quotation. Let's look at another complaint you made that your position was being misrepresented. You complained about someone else’s promiscuous quotation marks here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=243764&mesg_id=244560

From that I gather that you aver that “priest fucks boy… Church covers up” is someone’s actual position, and that it supposed to be a quotation. You would have to, in order to be consistent with your own claims. Is there any reason I should read that differently?

Back to the "Priests abuse..." thread. Post #94:

The very notion of such balanced discussion is met with condemnation, falsification and derision-

This was a response to darkstar3’s “BOTH sides” comment in post #91. That was followed with:

As if preventing child abuse was something above and beyond the call of duty for any decent human being.

Maybe you didn’t follow what darkstar was saying here. Again, I'm not going to say you got misstated his position out of malice.

I don’t think I’m being presumptuous when I say his intent was to say that your position is without merit, since your major premise was false. That’s what the whole “As if…” sentence means. He derided the notion that there are two valid positions, not the notion that balanced discussion is worthwhile. Rather he was saying it is impossible in this case.

Maybe you honestly misunderstood what darkstar and others were saying, but you certainly misrepresented their positions. And I never said that straw men have to be made on purpose. The "malicious lie" line is yours.

These are examples of you doing precisely what you complain about others doing to you.

they are bigotry in the extreme.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

They are clearly intended to slander and vilify the other via lie.

I don't see how your unsubstantiated claim to know people's motives is any more admirable than their unsubstantiated misrepresentation of your position.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. “those are the rules of engagement,” is your direct response to what I described.
49#
“The primary method of attacking religious people and agnostics on this board is the falsification, fabrication and blatant lie regarding what they have actually said. It is a game of false accusation and smear that has been going here for ages and has been frequently EVIDENCED.”



51# Your opening sentence-
“I don't know if you've spent time in other Internet forums but those are the rules of engagement, here and elsewhere”

What else other than “falsification, fabrication and blatant lie” can “those are the rules of engagement” be referring to?

“those are the rules of engagement” cannot be referring to what you subsequently wrote it can only refer to what preceded…to what I wrote- “falsification, fabrication and blatant lie”



“How could I have guessed that you would make a straw man of my position?”

I haven’t so you couldn’t.

My complaint was clearly directed to a specific set of behaviours-““falsification, fabrication and blatant lie” and I provided evidences thereof.
After declaring “those are the rules of engagement” you change my subject/complaint to your subject
“misrepresenting, sloppy, heat of battle, specious arguments and dumb, unsupportable claims.”

And I have already dismissed the attempt to change the subject in strong clear terms-
“No. It’s not “misrepresenting” or “sloppy in the heat of battle” argument.
It’s outright deliberate fucking lying about what the other has said…….”

At this point it is impossible to tell if you are misrepresenting deliberately or sloppily and inadvertently in the heat of battle……….only your clarification will determine if the discussion is worth continuing.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Why the hell should I try to clarify? You'll just straw man me again
I already explained that I don't approve of straw men, which shouldn't have been necessary because my language describing it in #51 was obviously condemning it. I addressed your examples collectively, but you claimed that I was ignoring them. I described them the way I see them, and now you're trying to imply that I was dishonest when I explained my position plainly.

You can dish it out, but you can't take it. Why should I continue this discussion?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #71
78. You shouldn’t because you can’t. I can't do it again because I haven't done it once.
When you write- "those are the rules of engagement" you are referring >back< to my post... which was not about strawman misrepresentation.

If you wanted to refer to the issues you raised then "these are the rules of engagement" projects forward to what you are describing.

Blaming me for your inability to express yourself clearly and calling a rational reading of your text a straw man won't help your pov.

“I already explained that I don't approve of straw men”

And I pointed out three times that the issue was not “straw men” or “sloppy argument” or any of the downplaying devices of distraction you put forward to desperately divert from the stated original issue-“ falsification, fabrication and blatant lie regarding what they have actually said”

And at this point, with you having cut, ignored and falsified that point/issue on four occasions I’m claiming you are displaying >exactly< the kind of falsification described.

“…which shouldn't have been necessary because my language describing it in #51 was obviously condemning it”

And my language in the following two posts was obviously pointing out that your condemnation of “straw men/misrepresentation was irrelevant to the point issue raised-
“And I have already dismissed the attempt to change the subject in strong clear terms-
“No. It’s not “misrepresenting” or “sloppy in the heat of battle” argument.
It’s outright deliberate fucking lying about what the other has said…….”

But you keep cutting and ignoring that point…three times now…which can only be gaming.

“I addressed your examples collectively,”

LOL…yea….let’s have a look at your collective addressing-

“ They're all examples of the straw man,”

“A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.”

First of the examples you reject as straw man-

“Anti-atheism bigotry is his religion and this is his church”

Is that a straw man? Is that “substituting a superficially similar proposition” to anything I have said? Is it supported by any evidence/substantiation?
No, it’s just a fucking baseless lie designed to slander and riding shotgun and pretending it’s some kind of “substituting” is just lying bullshit as well.

“now you're trying to imply that I was dishonest”

No such ‘implication’ is necessary.

“Why should I continue this discussion?”

You shouldn’t. You should have given up at the point at which you tried to pretend outright lying is straw man misrepresentation. Your position has been untenable since then…and that was three posts ago.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. Didn't read your post. Not interested anymore. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. Cool.You clearly didn't read the first post either. No change n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. Good, then we're cool. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
44. I thought it would take longer
before you pulled out the old "atheists are going to cost us the election" but you surprised me with your alacrity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
48. What you describe is indeed verifiable and demonstrable.
And the attacks are certainly not confined to “criticism of religious people” or their beliefs.

Religion itself is deemed “Worse than Meth or LSD” and “No good ever came of religion”

Propose that religious organizations such as the Salvation Army perform a vital role in provision of social services and the response is that they are “vultures, preying upon people”.
That Churches and church agencies provide surrogate community and support is deemed “horseshit”.
The role of Church Schools, Residential Care and Refuges in front line reporting of and protection against child abuse is deemed “bullshit” “a lie” and “Nobody gets Kudos for protecting against child abuse”.

While a significant number of theists here have expressed their disgust with the abuse of children and subsequent cover up in churches you will be hard pressed indeed to find anyone from the anti religion brigade expressing any recognition of the positive role of religious welfare agencies.
Indeed...the very notion of religion making any positive contribution to society is met with contempt.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. "No good ever came of religion"
Is that a direct quote? If so, could you link to the source?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. I believe the original was “F%$# religion, No good ever came of religion”
I would have to go back and check.

Here’s what I vividly recall about the quote…
When I first put it up I did so as I have done here without attribution to avoid ‘calling out’. I was asked to substantiate the quote (along with 3-4 others of like ilk) I immediately did so.

The author of the quote then posted a thread along the lines of ‘If you want me to leave I will” and claimed he was sick of being told to “Shut up and go away”. The atheist contingent consoled that this “Shut up and go away” to atheists was frequent and commonplace on the board. I asked if someone could link to anyone saying this and was told that such a question was tantamount to calling him/them liars. I was then provided with two links, not to posts but to 60+ post threads that supposedly contained “Shut up and go away” or something akin thereto.
I read the two threads and could find nothing like it…not specifically nor by allusion…no one was being told to “Shut up and go away”.

So…yea…It’s the oldest of all those quoted in 48# and the hardest to track back to…but I’ll go hunting for it…if you’ll tell me why it matters above the others…and why the not “ the first and only to present evidence” links already provided in 49# don’t even get consideration or a mention?

Reciprocity……It’s a wonderful thang ;-)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
41. Inquisition, Crusades, Burning of Witches. VERY open minded and tolerant
Edited on Mon May-10-10 09:04 PM by BrklynLiberal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. "All the saints are in churches and all the sinners outside of them" . . . ??/
Hardly -- the most immoral acts the world has ever seen have come from male-supremacist

religions!

Male-supremacist religion underpins patriarchy -- and it's "King-of-the-Hill" economic

system: Capitalism --

All of that should go -- the entire concept of patriarchy is suicidal!!

It's very core is a war on nature--!!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. I guess if I were a follower of a "male supremist religion", I'd not like that.
But since I'm not, I'll just have to say thanks for your opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. So, you are "a person of faith" who follows no organized religion?
Do you have faith in designer shoes?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
46. Do you always attribute phony quotes to the people you disagree with?
You know damn well the poster said nothing like "All the saints are in churches and all the sinners outside of them"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #46
81. Apparently it comes under the acceptable “rules of engagement”
In which grand theft fabrication,forgery and lie is downplayed and passed off as some form of sloppy straw man, whoops I didn’t hear you, misdemeanour.

It's a demonstration of ethical standards.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. Wait, I take back number 83. We're not cool
Forget what I posted two minutes ago: You're still misrepresenting what I said. Why is it okay when you do it? I thought that kind of thing was a malicious lie. Never mind what I said before about not caring. I really want to know why you think it's okay for you to do it, but when it happens to you, it's a form of bigotry. That's a major inconsistency.

It's a demonstration of ethical standards.

Well, I guess it reflects poorly on you as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #84
89. Hasn’t been cool since your falsification in 51#. Thrice+ explained to you.
For the 5th/6th time.

Issue raised in 49#- “the falsification, fabrication and blatant lie regarding what they have actually said.”
That is the invention, forgery, fabrication, complete and utter falsification and blatant lie with NOTHING in evidence to support it and no justification/explanation offered.

From 51# onwards you downplayed and misrepresented this as-
“People misrepresent each other's positions. Argument gets sloppy in the heat of battle. People make specious arguments and dumb, unsupportable claims.” “misinterpreted or intentionally misrepresented”, “misunderstanding--or arguing in bad faith”, “straw man”

It did not matter how many times I pointed out the distinction-
69#
“And I have already dismissed the attempt to change the subject in strong clear terms-
“No. It’s not “misrepresenting” or “sloppy in the heat of battle” argument.
It’s outright deliberate fucking lying about what the other has said…….”

You persisted in pretending the issue was “misrepresenting” what had been said rather than “falsification, fabrication and blatant lie” on the basis of nothing at all.

“You're still misrepresenting what I said”

That’s possible and could be determined resolved by discussion…but not in the face of dogged and determined falsification in which- “grand theft fabrication, forgery and lie is downplayed and passed off as some form of sloppy straw man, whoops I didn’t hear you, misdemeanour.

“ I thought that kind of thing was a malicious lie.”

No, 7th time, misrepresentation or straw man involves “illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition”. That is taking anothers EXISTING stated pov and twisting, distorting and re presenting it.

“malicious lie” is the fabrication and forgery of anothers pov from NOTHING at all.

Both strawman misrepresentation and fabrication are confirmed as lie when all requests for substantiation, explanation and justification are cut, ignored, rejected.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. I still don't see the distinction
between what others have done to you and what you have done to others. I read through your examples. I've read them multiple times now. People accused you of not wanting to punish Catholic priests for abusing children. This enraged you, because you hadn't said that. In response, you accused others of caring only about punishing priests and caring nothing about other instances of abuse. You made up a statement and put it in quotes: “priest fucks boy… Church covers up”.

Your falsification (to use your word) about others was the mirror opposite of what they had made up about you. Again, please explain to me why what you did was different from what they did.

That is the invention, forgery, fabrication, complete and utter falsification and blatant lie with NOTHING in evidence to support it and no justification/explanation offered.

Yes, I know you've written this more than once. I know you're angry at having to repeat yourself, but lemme tell you: I've read it each time and never seen anything to convince me that the behavior of the people who were arguing with you in the "Priests abuse..." thread was any different than your own behavior there.

Remember post #78 in that thread?

That’s funny…because I never claimed anyone held any kind of “moral highground”.

You pulled that out of your ass. No one said anything about you assigning the moral high ground to anyone. And you reacted to that fabricated point-of-view with the same bombastic anger that boiled through most of your posts in that thread. The question from #58 in that thread was about whether the Church "claim(s) higher moral standing and authority than the rest of the world" and how that related to the results of the study. You injected yourself and started wailing and gnashing your teeth over something no one had said.

How is this different from other posters putting words in your mouth?

Two other things I'd like to ask:

1.) Do you acknowledge that you also misrepresented what I said? I never said that fabricating a quote or point-of-view was acceptable, but in #81 in this thread you used that term in a clear (but inaccurate) reference to what I said in #51.

2.) Will you readdress my original point from #51 upthread:

It's a form of laziness, not a form of bigotry.

("It" in #51 and "it" in the next excerpt both refer to--again, your word--fabrication as a tactic.) In #53 above, you wrote:

it is driven by an open and overt bigotry

If the supposed prejudice against the religious is open and overt, why do you need to point to X and say this "is driven by bigotry"? Wouldn't an overtly bigoted statement be something like "all Muslims are terrorists" or "Jews are filthy and greedy" or some other ugliness? The bigotry would be right in the content. And if the bigotry is in the content rather than the tactics, isn't this whole "fabrication" argument a colossal red herring?

You being mistreated in the same way people abuse each other in arguments over a thousand other issues doesn't overtly have anything to do with the issue of religion. Hell, I've seen you do the same at least three times, and I still don't think you're a bigot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
33. Well you seem to have forgotten
that the "atheists of old" had to keep their mouths shut and their lack of belief secret if they wanted to live decent lives, because it was the religious folk who were belligerent and mean-spirited towards them. Sorry that we're not meek and deferential enough to please you any more...cope.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
43. You mean the ones that just shut up?
People in the South liked the old house nigger a lot more, too, but it isn't something we really want to go back to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
45. Because those atheists minded their own business, right?
Edited on Mon May-10-10 10:07 PM by DeSwiss
I used to mind my own business and left the religionists alone. Until that day when they flew airplanes into buildings. That's when I said enough this fantasy shit. Religion ruins EVERYTHING.

And yet I understand your nostalgia. I can remember back in the 1970's. Those were tumultuous but great times too -- at least for me. As is said often down here in the South "you couldn't hit me in the ass with an apple!" I could stay out all night. I could drink like a fish. And I didn't have this beer-gut either. But those days for me are gone.

- And so are the days that you adored so much, of the closed-mouth atheist who stood idly by while the intellectually-lazy drove us to the brink of oblivion with their incessant nonsensical ideas about god.....

on edit: spelling
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
47. Your post reminded me of the WW2 Vets
in the industrial/coal mining region I grew up in. Hard but fair no nonsense men who had lived through incredible hardship. Many, if pressed, would describe themselves as Atheists and more still would not even have such a title to put on their non belief.
But when the Salvation Army tin rattler came into the bar every man made a contribution on principle. These were men who had fought the Japanese in New Guinea and the Pacific in the most horrendous conditions…and frequently found, along some jungle track on some obscure island, the ‘Salvo’s’ had set up to provide a drink and a biscuit. (On a couple of occasions the SA almost being shot at because their flag resembled that of the Rising Sun).

Those Vets never forgot and never ceased to honour and support an organization that would go into a battle zone to provide basic needs to troops.
It’s an ‘Old School’ world view that places principle above politics/philosophy…and, as an agnostic, I am ashamed and embarrassed by the new breed that completely dismisses organizations such as Aunt Sally as nothing but “Vultures”.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #47
58. Yep...the good ol' days. Probably before everyone knew that the Salvation Army ....
would be exempt from discriminatory hiring
practices via executive fiat,
while accepting federal money, just because....

well, just because their bigotry is "sacred".

Mustn't sneeze near the house of cards!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #58
82. And that “executive fiat” negates the history of their war service
and the aid and assistance they provide to 33-34 million Americans every year…doesn’t it?

It’s a good thing there are so many secular NGO’s out there doing parallel or comparable work to the
“vultures” in the Salvation army
“Such local organizations exist all over the country, and, combined, they dwarf the SA.”

It’s just a dam pity no one can name/identify any of the constituent components of this mega secular charity ;-)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x243764#244285

There are many who worship at The First Church of Bigotry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. I can name them for you.

Salvation Army < the United States of America + each of the individual 50 states within the USA + a thousand local police departments + a thousand local fire departments.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Oh Dear......"NGO"= 'Non Government Organization'........n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
85. Those people are going the same way of blacks, Jews, and gays who "knew their place".
And there's nothing you can do about that. Suck it up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #85
93. ...
:applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Interesting!
Edited on Mon May-10-10 03:24 PM by AlbertCat
But I feel the need to point out that Science isn't technology. I agree with Lawrence Krauss who doesn't see that the "reason" to do science is so it will be practical, but so we may know what is going on around us and marvel at the amazing awesomeness of even the briefest and most ordinary moment.

"Of course, we need to stop trying to conquer the world "... but this is the goal of religion (especially the "convert or die" religions, Christianity and Islam), not science. And I don't have ""faith in reason, science, and technology" .... I trust it, not "believe in" it. That is because there is no mystery to seeing it work and improve my life daily, hourly.

And as usual, the concepts and contributions of Art are ignored.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
42. Equivocating on the meaning of the word faith is a favorite trick
Do I have faith that the Phillies will make the playoffs this year? Yeah, sure. I wouldn't use those terms, but that's a common colloquial definition of the word faith. But that isn't remotely the same thing as having faith in God. A lot of pro-theist or anti-science arguments rely on that false equivalence, though. That's a not-so-neat act of prestidigitation that believers and their apologists like to use.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #42
54. Exactly, and Hedges knew just what he was doing
Edited on Tue May-11-10 05:12 AM by skepticscott
It's hard to credit him as being "moral" when he engages in that kind of intellectual dishonesty, and hard to give his position much credence when he needs to in order to argue it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. Since I sourced the article you allude to, thanks for sharing your views
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Religion did not create morality. It co-opted it.
They didn't invent music or architecture either.

--imm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Co-opted then corrupted it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. That's a really good point.
--imm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Acculturation rather than co-opting
Acculturation rather than co-opting I would think...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. We'd be unloading "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" . . .
scanned the article quickly, but they are two licenses for the elite to exploit which

have to go --

and they come from organized patriarchal religion, which is the underpinning for patriarchy --

which also has to go --

Capitalism is their exploitive economic system, designed to move the wealth and natural resources

of any nation from the many to the few -- and that has to go.

Collapsing male-supremacist religion without collapsing its suicidal concepts would be

meaningless!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. He's mesmerized by false dichotomies.
Either we are moral or we are immoral. Either we believe in God or we believe in the Superman. Either we are compassionate or we are selfish.

I seem to recall Hedges equating atheists and fundamentalists, but I don't think most atheists see things in quite such stark black and white terms as he seems to see them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. Hedges often makes me want to scream but I do agree with him
on this one issue. Religious institutions are political and economic power structures used to control. The powerful know this and exploit those adherents through them, which is why they had to sneer so vociferously at Marx. That and the fact that he wanted them to give up economic power. The older I get, the better I understand this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. Most of all, we need male-supremacist notions to "fizzle" . . . !!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. It is curious that you, David, will walk along with Chris only as long as he
conforms to your own views and comforts your own prejudices -- and that when he says something with which you disagree, you turn on him and attack him, angry that he does not wholeheartedly supporti your own simple stereotyped views (say) that religion trains blind obedience, .. diminishes the value of life before death, .. shifts responsibility from people to imaginary beings, .. divides groups of people who kill in its name

These are your own ugly generalizations, David, and you would do well to examine them critically, not merely cherry-picking examples that reinforce your own prior views



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. It is curious that you posted this at all.
You see, EVERYONE does the exact same thing. I agree with Christopher Hitchens when he's right. That doesn't mean I think him any less of a cockbite.

When someone makes an argument or statemtent that we agree with, it is pure human nature for us to support it, parrot it, use it in future discussions, and generally "walk along" with that person as long as they continue to say things we agree with. THIS WHOLE BOARD does the exact same thing with Democratic politicians.

And I find it incredibly dishonest for any Christian willing to quote Bible verses to back their views to post such an argument. What you accuse David of is exactly what you do with the Bible, pulling quotes from that massive tome to support your own views, and ignoring or twisting those quotes that do not support such views. I think there's a stick in your eye...

And BTW, while David's statements about the negative aspects of religion are ugly and do apply on a general scale, it wasn't him who wrote the history of organized religion. To call what you have quoted "generalization" is to attempt to dismiss it as false, and that dismissal isn't borne out by history.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I learned the practical politics I know from a group of grassroots organizers who
worked on a variety of issues by actually getting people in the community to do real things to obtain definite results

No matter what concrete issue is at hand, better results are obtained if one keeps the discussion fact-based, non-philosophical, and free from bigotry and idiotic generalities

Your style is gratuitously irritating, pointlessly divisive, and counter-productive for any serious work
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. And your post was worthless,
Edited on Mon May-10-10 07:15 PM by darkstar3
and you're desperate to ignore the reason why.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #36
56. I agree that for grass-roots politics with definite aims in mind, focusing on immediate goals is ...
the best approach. And in many circumstances, these immediate goals are critical.

But, I also believe that philosophy is critical to determining long-term goals. Too much focus on short term goals can make you lose sight of the bigger problem.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
63. You come to a political discussion forum for serious work?
For that matter, what "results" are you looking for? Do you post here for a school project?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Have you ever played the question game from Stoppard's "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"?
Have you ever read the play? How was the game scored? Did rhetorical questions count?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. That reminds me of something from yesterday.
I was listening to a track from part two of Le sacre du printemps and as the percussion was playing repeated hits in a build to the next section, the track ended and the finale was abruptly replaced by Ray Nance singing "Tulip or Turnip" with the Duke Ellington band at the 1956 Newport Jazz Festival.

Turns out I left the 'shuffle' feature on from earlier.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Not a question: two points against you. Would you like to read the play before continuing?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Did you think that I was playing along?
How precious.

Sorry, but this discussion is about 20th century music. By insisting on changing the subject to a silly parlor game you're not contributing to productive discussion. I was hoping to shed some light on the subject, but if you don't want to participate, I'll thank you to not distract from the issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. How did "Do you post here for a school project?" contribute to productive discussion?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Where in this trainwreck of a subthread was productive discussion attempted?
I certainly don't see it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. Context matters.
Provocative questions designed to elicit a response to jump-start a stagnant discussion are entirely valid. Unfortunately, you couldn't stay on topic and here we are, mired in minutia irrelevant to the broader scope of 20th century music.

Somehow I expected better of you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. When I masturbate, I usually do it in private n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. I was wondering how to work that joke in there.
I suppose straightforward WAS the way to go. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uberllama42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #73
77. Well, I felt like it needed to be said
I'm no great put-down artist, but I'll step up when I feel like I have to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. Body, Mind and Spirit.
Those elements of human being ought to be in balance, it seems, and Hedges is struggling with the loss of the "spirit" element on the global level. We've got plenty of "body," as seen in the free market and how its fear-based activities keep us running and working in our little circles. "Mind," as we can call the function of government, is overly controlled by these "body" concerns, the id dominating the ego if you will, while the superego languishes on the sidelines as a corrupt and worn-out Church, devoid of the true spirit that most individuals seek and honor, but that has not found a collective voice.

Given that few people operate on the higher levels of Kohlberg's "moral reasoning" scale, it's necessary to provide some concrete principles, beyond civil and criminal law, for shared observance and action. While religion has attempted to do this, it's clear now that an out-of-control Body and a precocious Mind are in need of a new Spirit to bring balance to the world. I share Hedges' concern that simply abandoning this aspect of human society will not automatically advance us to a higher kind of humanity. I wish I knew, though, what can take its place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ironbark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #21
50. Enjoyed your post a great deal.

Would suggest that a number of factors (economic, political and environmental) will oblige the distinct National bodies to recognise they are in fact one, human, body.
This ‘spirit’ I believe is already manifesting in a generation of ‘Diaspora’ children- born in one country, refugees or migrating to another, educated in a third, employed in a fourth…they no longer see themselves as ‘exclusively’ Eastern/ Western/ European/ American/ Cambodian….and they draw on diverse religious and cultural traditions as their own.

There are inevitable problems as this new spirit/mindset runs up against deeply ingrained notions of national identity and national sovereignty and against broader political and religious paradigms.

But I can’t see any way of avoiding the fact that we are a single humanity sharing a single planet and will require a ‘spirit’ reflective thereof to survive.

;-)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
68. That sounds very similar to the God-shaped Hole argument.
If you are going to claim that we have three parts to us that must be kept in harmony, you must first submit any kind of proof that those three parts exist before going on a tear about how to reach said harmony.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
57. I disagree with your reading of Hedges.
Edited on Tue May-11-10 08:12 AM by Jim__
First of all, what he says about Nietzsche and the "last men," and our current society is hardly deniable:

Nietzsche had his doubts. He suspected that this new secular faith might prefigure an endless middle-class charade. Nietzsche feared the deadening effects of the constant search for material possessions and personal hedonism. Science and technology might rather bring about a new, distorted character Nietzsche called “the Last Man.” The Last Man, Nietzsche feared, would engage in the worst kinds of provincialism, believing he had nothing to learn from history. The Last Man would wallow and revel in his ignorance and quest for personal fulfillment. He would be satisfied with everything that he had done and become, and would seek to become nothing more. He would be intellectually and morally stagnant, incapable of growth, and become part of an easily manipulated herd. The Last Man would mistake cynicism for knowledge.

...

The consumer culture, as Nietzsche feared, has turned us into what Chalmers Johnson calls a “consumerist Sparta.” The immigrants and the poor, all but invisible to us, work as serfs in this new temple of greed and imperialism. Curtis White in “The Middle Mind” argues that most Americans are aware of the brutality and injustice used to maintain the excesses of their consumer society and empire. He suspects they do not care. They don’t want to see what is done in their name. They do not want to look at the rows of flag-draped coffins or the horribly maimed bodies and faces of veterans or the human suffering in the blighted and deserted former manufacturing centers. It is too upsetting. Government and corporate censorship is welcomed and appreciated. It ensures that we remain Last Men. And the death of religious institutions will only cement into place the new secular religion of the Last Man, the one that worships military power, personal advancement, hedonism and greed, the one that justifies our callousness toward the weak and the poor.


As for the nazis and Nietzsche, Hitler was far more enamoured of Schopenhauer than he was of Nietzsche.

But Hedges is hardly the only person calling for a re-evaluation of the place of religion in current society. In his critique of Jürgen Habermas's book, “An Awareness of What is Missing: Faith and Reason in a Post-secular Age.”, Stanley Fish notes that Habermas deals with a number of issues similar to those in Hedges article:


In his earlier work, Habermas believed, as many did, that the ambition of religion to provide a foundation of social cohesion and normative guidance could now, in the Modern Age, be fulfilled by the full development of human rational capacities harnessed to a “discourse ethics” that admitted into the conversation only propositions vying for the status of “better reasons,” with “better” being determined by a free and open process rather than by presupposed ideological or religious commitments: “…the authority of the holy,” he once declared, “is gradually replaced by the authority of an achieved consensus.”

In recent years, however, Habermas’s stance toward religion has changed. First, he now believes that religion is not going away and that it will continue to play a large and indispensable part in many societies and social movements. And second, he believes that in a post-secular age — an age that recognizes the inability of the secular to go it alone — some form of interaction with religion is necessary: “Among the modern societies, only those that are able to introduce into the secular domain the essential contents of their religious traditions which point beyond the merely human realm will also be able to rescue the substance of the human.”


Religion has served and continues to serve an important role in society. We need to understand that role, not dismiss it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
60. You don't get to choose.
There will always be religion. There will always be technology. You can't just disregard one or the other because you don't like it's particular manifestation. All you can do is make one that works better than the last one. And make them both work together in your life.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Religion/Theology Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC