Atheists Can't Think For Themselves! (Edward Current video 4:33)

[ZombieHorde]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgjGpPLCFhE&feature=channel

[ironbark]

1. All in all…pretty asinine and not very funny

The only interesting bit was the text over referring to the moon not being a light.

“OK, So maybe the moon isn’t a light. (Gen 1:16)”

The notion that the moon was a source of light was common (and seemingly obvious) to those of the ancient world.

As I understand it the Quran identifies the Sun as a source of light and the moon as a reflector of light…begging the question- how did an illiterate herder in 600ad know.

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then We clove them asunder and We got every living thing out of the water. Will they not then believe?"
sura 21, verse 30:

The Bible, The Qur'an and Science
by Dr. Maurice Bucaille
THE HOLY SCRIPTURES EXAMINED IN THE LIGHT
OF MODERN KNOWLEDGE
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MB_BQS/default.htm

[ZombieHorde]

2. Edward Current is pointing out some of the mental gymnastics

required for most monotheistic faiths. Especially for faiths which believe God interacts with our world, such as the God described in the Christian Holy Bible.

[darkstar3]

3. Maybe the illiterate herder guessed.

:shrug:

[ironbark]

4. Statistical Probability

“Maybe the illiterate herder guessed.”

Odds of the illiterate herder making an in the dark, coin toss right/wrong guess, on a single question? About 50/50 (or 51-49 if he uses a real coin ;-)

Then you need to calculate the odds of getting each subsequent guess right in succession without fail …..because if the “illiterate herder guessed” right each time in succession consistently and without fail then your dealing with a ‘rigged game’.

http://stattrek.com/Tools/ProbabilityCalculator.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy

In this instance the requirement is to calculate not just the odds of the illiterate herder guessing right on each occasion but the odds of those guesses standing to be proved/revealed to be invariably right over a two thousand year period.

Care to sit down and write a book on the following subjects that will contain no scientific error and stand for two thousand years?

Astronomy in the Qur'an
A. General reflections concerning the Sky
B. Nature of Heavenly Bodies
The Sun and the Moon
The Stars
The Planets
The Lowest Heaven
C. Celestial Organization
The Existence of the Moon's and the Sun's Orbits
1. The Moon's Orbit
2. The Sun
Reference to the Movement of the Moon and the Sun in Space With Their Own Motion
The Sequence of Day and Night
D. Evolutions of the Heavens
The Expansion of the Universe
E. The conquest of Space
The Earth
A. Verses containing general statements
B. The Water cycle and the Seas
The Seas
C. The Earth's Relief
D. The Earth's Atmosphere
Altitude
Electricity in the Atmosphere
Shadows
The Animal and Vegetable Kingdoms
A. The Origins of Life
B. The Vegetable Kingdom
Balance in the Vegetable Kingdom
The Different Qualities of Various Foods
Reproduction in the Vegetable Kingdom
C. The Animal Kingdom
1. Reproduction in the Animal Kingdom
2. References to the Existence of Animal Communities
3. Statements Concerning Bees, Spiders and Birds
Bees
Spiders
Birds
4. The Source of the Constituents of Animal Milk
Human Reproduction
Reminder of certain basic concepts
Human Reproduction in the Qur'an
1. Fertilization is Performed by Only a Very Small Volume of Liquid
2. The Constituents of the Fertilizing Liquid
3. The Implantation of the Egg In the Female Genital Organs.
4. Evolution of the Embryo inside the Uterus


That's a shitload of invariably lucky guessing across a deep broad range for an illiterate herder.

“In view of the level of knowledge in Muhammad's day, it is inconceivable that many of the statements In the Qur'an which are connected with science could have been the work of a man. It is, moreover, perfectly legitimate, not only to regard the Qur'an as the expression of a Revelation, but also to award it a very special place, on account of the guarantee of authenticity it provides and the presence in it of scientific statements which, when studied today, appear as a challenge to explanation in human terms.” Dr. Maurice Bucaille

[darkstar3]

5. Are you actually claiming that ancient Muslim knowledge of astronomy is proof of Revelation??

Are you perhaps unaware of the fact that it was the Muslims who invented Optics, who possessed telescopes capable of seeing local planets up close at least a thousand years before Galileo, and who also invented much of ancient mathematics?

That the ancient Muslims (and the Arabians that preceeded Muhammed) were exceptional scientists and mathematicians is not in question here. Now, if you really want to talk about probability, then answer me with the probability of the existence of a creature that could have provided the Revelation that you are claiming. Be specific, please.

[ironbark]

6. No. “Actually” and clearly I make no such claim of “proof”.

I’m clearly claiming that there is a statistical aberration to “the illiterate herder guessed” theory…and that is that the author of the Quran got waaaay to many correct “guesses” and no glairing >wrongs< when dealing with precise scientific concepts and omitting contemporary fallacies.
Some of his correct guesses not being confirmed until centuries later.

That is consistent with continualy/invariably tossing 'heads' over twenty+ throws.

I do not and have not claimed this is “proof” of anything other than something outside of the law of averages/chance appears to be taking place which aught prompt anyone with an interest in science to conduct further examination.

I am facinated by the attempt to suggest that this knoledge was commonplace to Muslim scholars who are ALL obviously working AFTER Mohamed and the Quran-

“Are you perhaps unaware of the fact that it was the Muslims who invented Optics, who possessed telescopes …..”

Um…….Darkstar…..if they are “Muslims inventing optics” then that places them AFTER the “illiterate herder/Mohammed’ and REPRESENTING the civilization born of his claimed revelation- Islamic.

“That the ancient Muslims (and the Arabians that preceeded Muhammed) were exceptional scientists and mathematicians…”

What a lovely sleight of hand- “the Arabians that preceeded Muhammed) were exceptional scientists and mathematicians…”

Name them.
Name the “Arabians that preceeded Muhammed) were exceptional scientists and mathematicians…”

I have read the pre Islamic poets….I am so looking forward to you introducing me to the pre Islamic “exceptional scientists and mathematicians…”

;-)

Reciprocity starts here or the discussion necessarily terminates.
I’m not playing- I answer all your points/questions you ignore/misrepresent all mine any more.

[darkstar3]

7. Talk about sleight of hand.

In #4 you do everything short of actually stating "The Qu'ran was divinely inspired," and you even went so far as to specifically quote someone who calls it a Revelation. Now, while you continue harping on this idea, you tell me that you never claimed anything of the sort?

:crazy:

[ironbark]

8. I’ve tried…We’re done...bye. n/t

[darkstar3]

9. Should I now accuse you of running away?

Dodging questions? Refusing to answer any of the points or questions that have been put to you? Manufacturing my opinion so that you can play the victim and run away? Should I now bring this unfinished argument up in as many future threads as possible?

I ask because I'm curious what the protocol is in this little play we've been having and where we have now apparently switched roles...What would YOU do THIS TIME AROUND if I had said "I've tried...we're done...bye."