The Problem of Suffering: Doubts from a Seeker

[FDRLincoln]

The biggest problem I have in my own spiritual journey in trying to make sense of the universe is the problem of suffering.

Now, I'm not talking about my own life. Indeed, my life (with a few rough patches) has been relatively suffering-free. I have a loving family, enough money to survive, a decent job, etc. So this is not a case of "my life sucks". My own life is good.

But that is not true for a lot of other people.

I am making a distinction here between what I call "human-actioned suffering" and "natural suffering." "Human-actioned suffering" are things that are caused by human beings. Stuff like wars, genocide, etc. It is not the Holocaust, or various murders, or any of the other horrible things that humans do to each other, or themselves, that makes me doubt the existence of God.

No, it's stuff like the tsunami. Or various sundry horrible incurable diseases. Or the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs. Or a kitten being eaten alive by maggots. That's the stuff that gets me and makes me doubt.

At the same time, while I have these doubts, I also believe that there is a spiritual reality of some sort. Traditional Christianity links suffering with sin (the wages of sin is death), but that makes little sense to me any more, since animals undoubtedly suffer yet they cannot sin. But while traditional Christian dogma is nonsensical to my mind, concepts of the "inner light" as understood by the Quakers, or the teachings of the Sufis about Love and the Oneness of the Universe, make a LOT of sense to me, and "ring true" in my mind and heart.

Yet, there is that old problem of natural suffering again.

These are the shoals I am trying to navigate.

I would be interested in hearing how Quakers, Sufis, and like-minded folk deal with the reality of suffering in the natural world.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Suffering

Like you, I've had my rough patches but can't say I've really suffered. Interstingly, when I've talked to mystics who have had health challenges and are survivors of natural disasters they don't look at their time as a time of suffering, but rather a time of learning. For some, the incident or illness acted as a wake-up call and helped them get out of what I call "mind-ruts"-patterns of thinking that are not helpful.

Getting beyond an event that has caused suffering is a vital spiritual practice. It starts with forgivness-of the situation, of those who may have caused the situation, but most of all, forgiveness of self. This practice can take a lifetime.

That's this Sufi initiate's POV, anyway.

[renter]

8. In Genesis, Chapter 3...

We learn that Adam and Eve are thrust out of paradise and must work the earth in order to live. The earth will not be a paradise any longer without this work. This is the beginning of man vs nature. Natural calamities are very unfortunate to those directly involved. Bad things do indeed happen to good people. These natural events do enable the rest of us to come to the aid of those involved. Here in the Midwest tornadoes are a real danger. After one strikes you can see the many churches, humanitarian organizations, and individuals helping those in need. I have never heard of a natural disaster affecting more people that cannot be taken care of by those unaffected. As ayeshahaqqiqa has pointed out a natural disaster can be a learning/spirtual episode. One, however I sincerely hope I never have to experience.

[Astarho]

2. Because Nature is indifferent

Some people say nature is cruel, but I think that is indifferent. Because it has to be (The world doesn't stop every time something suffers or dies).

Nature, God, Creator, whatever you want to call it has no moral underpinning, it simply 'is'.

It's a difficult question, and I have no idea if my reply was helpful or not.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

7. I have to agree

While some suffering is caused by human sin, things like the tsunami and other natural disasters are indifferent to humans and have been going on since before there was life on earth. After all, other planets in the solar system have volcanoes and storms.

Sometimes people get in the way of the earth going through its natural processes, sometimes not even knowing that there's danger. We all heard of the Kobe earthquake of 1995. Before it happened, no one even knew that there was a fault under Kobe.

None of us are exempt from physical laws. If an earthquake knocks a wall on top of us, we break.

[ironman202]

3. all is impermanent, all is without a self.

you could look at that all suffering, no distiction between human and natural, are the furnaces in which we burn, and get purified in and thus attain enlightenment. You just have to burn off that ego and your attachment to physical things and indeed, to yourself. There is no-self. You already have enlightenment, you just don't know it. This is the buddhist concept of Dzogchen.

[bonito]

4. There is mental pain we make real with our thoughts

but its not physical pain at all, but seems so real. Thoughts are things.(A play ground if you will) and then there's physical pain that brings it closer. and there we can better deal with it, like it or not. And there's only one way out, detachment. Separating the pain from our reality. things are thoughts. I'm not here for myself any more but for all the suffering. keep love as your guide post in your journey. hope this helps.

[DemBones DemBones]

5. I think there may be truths behind Christian dogma

that you haven't discovered yet. With Christianity being pretty much the default for Westerners in terms of religion, we often have a hard time seeing what's good about it (particularly when confronted with many bad examples!) and so look elsewhere for answers. Looking back at Christianity later, we can better see its depths as well as more relationships between all faiths. Which is not to suggest that you should be Christian, only to suggest openness to all faiths, learning from all. I'd especially suggest openness to the Christian mystics in addition to Sufism and Quakerism (which, of course, has a strong mystical component.) It's all good.


ironman said

"you could look at that all suffering, no distiction between human and natural, are the furnaces in which we burn, and get purified in and thus attain enlightenment. You just have to burn off that ego and your attachment to physical things and indeed, to yourself. There is no-self. You already have enlightenment, you just don't know it. This is the buddhist concept of Dzogchen."



To me, this Buddhist concept is in a similar vein to something said by St. Ignatius Loyola (not just founder of the Jesuits but also the author of spiritual exercises which have been in use since his lifetime.) St. Ignatius said something to the effect that if God sends you suffering, He intends you to be a saint. I think that ties in to the concept of suffering purifying you and showing you enlightenment; Ignatius might say suffering shows you God.


Beyond that, in situations such as the tsunami, I just don't see God as causing that sort of natural disaster. I'm not sure God deliberately sends any suffering to any of us; I just agree with Ignatius that you can use suffering as purification. But you can't use suffering that ends your life before you have a chance to reflect on it and seek purification.

[FDRLincoln]

6. mystics

Well, I was raised as an Episcopalian, and I've read some of the Christian mystics. Some of them make a lot of sense, some of them less so.

[Tux]

9. Natural disasters

They can be horrible but they just happen. No true meaning behind it other than a series of events that eventually lead to a disaster. If the dinosaur killing asteroid had it's course changed by 1 mm 180 million years ago, it wouldn't hit Earth. These things happen as a result of previous events.