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If the Catholic Church Was Wrong When It Murdered Giordano Bruno, What Else Might it Be Wrong About?

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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 09:43 PM
Original message
If the Catholic Church Was Wrong When It Murdered Giordano Bruno, What Else Might it Be Wrong About?
Giordano Bruno, burned at the stake on February 17, 1600 by the Roman Inquisition, merely for believing that there were multiple suns and planets out there in the universe, just like our own solar system. Science today has vindicated his theory, we now know that all these other stars out there are suns themselves, and that planets do in fact orbit them. How could the Church have gotten it so wrong? Surely, a "philosopher" of the caliber of Jesus with the knowledge of God would have let it slip that we are but one planet in a sea of planets in the cosmos, that we are not alone. Why allow for such ignorance about the nature of the universe that God supposedly created and had full knowledge of from the beginning? If a body as "infallible" as the Church could be so wrong about such a critical fact of nature, what else might it also be wrong about today?

Granted, the Church has evolved and even "liberalized" to some degree, finding tolerance for certain areas of science after all these long years of opposition to it, but what kind of truth is there in a religion that changes its mind all the time to keep up with the times? One that says it was this way once upon a time, and is now a different way in order to keep up with what scientific discoveries have taught us? Discoveries that it now cannot deny?

What future discoveries are there about to be stumbled upon by science, and what will that mean for the future of the Church? There may be a reason why the Church is in decline, and accusations about boy-buggering by priests would seem to be the least of its concerns, when science itself is the greatest threat to its existence...
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Don't forget the disembowelment of Gregor Mendel.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Now now... don't you know that only Muslims engage in...
such horrors--beheading and such... :sarcasm:
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. On edit.. Are you confusing Mendel with someone else?
I don't believe he is who you are thinking of. As far as I know he died a natural death.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. He died, Abbot of St Thomas's Abbey, Brno, Moravia, of nephritis.
Later he was called the father of genetics, not Abbot.

The premise of the OP is flawed.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. The premise of the OP concerns Bruno, who didn't have such a nice death. NT
Edited on Mon May-17-10 07:46 AM by dmallind
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. This is the premise:
"What future discoveries are there about to be stumbled upon by science, and what will that mean for the future of the Church?"

It rests on a dichotomy between science and the Catholic Church.

It is false.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. So the church will have nothing to say about cloning, or genetic medicine in humans, or ...
...new forms of contraception?

...or abiogenesis in labs?

...or (getting more speculative, but since you did not qualify "future")

...designer babies whose religious preferences can be specified by DNA manipulation?

...behavorial modification by neurochemistry, effectively guaranteeing human morality can be more effectively controlled by science than by faith?




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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. It's got plenty to say.
But take your antiapoplexy pills before visiting this site.

http://www.ncbcenter.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=183

BTW, your last sentence is overreaching.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. So it's impossible that neurochemsitry could ever be used to determine behavior?
Interesting thought. What's the obstacle that is insurmountable?

I'm not the apoplectic kind but since you suggest I would be that kind of shows that the idea of a dichotomy between science and the church is not all imaginary right? Or does the link say all such efforts are hunky-dory to the RCC by any wild chance?
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. You wrote neuroscience can regulate human morality, not behavior.
That's overreaching unless you hold the two are identical.
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I'm a utilitarian. I do. NT
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. Naw, he's just trying valiantly once again (and failing, once again) to defend his church.
The current spin among Catholic apologists was that Bruno wasn't murdered for his valid scientific theories but for having different religious beliefs and some pretty crackpot scientific ideas.

Because that obviously makes his murder reasonable, right? :sarcasm:

The truth of course is that the apologists think if they can show a detractor is wrong on one point, he's wrong about EVERYTHING and therefore his criticism of the precious mother church is invalid and the pope's farts smell like roses.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. I was going to explain where you're wrong but when you wrote "the pope's farts smell like roses",
I realized it is pointless.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Why, because they smell like lilacs? n/t
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. No, because you're better equipped to discuss anal emanations than history.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. My authority pales in comparison to yours on that subject. n/t
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. They could be wrong about a lot. i don't know much about other relgions, but having been raised in
catholic church and going to catholic school, i feel i have aright to weigh in on the catholic church. and i am not saying it to denigrate the fine nuns and priests i came in contact with who were there to do good things. i will bet there are a lot of people who participate to help people. but the organization as a whole is a bloated and corrupt entity. you have a pope who sure looks like some kind of royalty. they go around covering up priests abusing children proving their only true concern is themselves. I can't help but wonder... the jesus that i was taught about in the bible they claim to believe in.... he would be rallying against the catholic church. he would have nothing to do with them. and frankly i think they would call him delusional and that he couldn't be jesus were he to come today. If there ever was any truth to the bible beyond some story, I believe it would have long been perverted by those who had a reason to make things suit themselves. they go around with pomp and circumstance with a vatican city and fine linens and robes and a summer house when the man they claim as their savior was a simple man who wore plain clothes and would not be very happy with what they are today.

I am not a catholic... i call myself a recovering catholic. I started questioning things a long time ago and found that they did not like questions... which made me question even more. I do not believe the bible. I do believe in God, but not religion. so i guess i have some bias. Personally i do not know how anyone can participate in the church considering the scandals of child abuse nevermind all the other stuff.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. While emphasizing that these things were done by Catholics, it should be noted that
the very same types of events occurred under the watchful gaze and approval of those who were decidedly non-religious (declared atheists). Somehow that point seems to get lost quite often around here.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I think the problem here is not specifically that the Catholic Church did these things,
but instead that it has a pretty crappy track record and yet continues to claim authority, moral and otherwise.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. the holy roman church is the most corrupt institution in history
it is responsible for more deaths and degradation than any institution in history. even the exposure of the church`s centuries old perversions has failed to change the institution and sadly those who believe in catholicism.
my problem is with those who worship and do not speak out about the church`s own sins against humanity. everything that christ stood for was corrupted by the roman church. one only has to look to the coptic church to see how christ`s message is practiced.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Does that include the 100+ million or so that died under
the communist atheist regimes in the 20th century.?
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. That tune was old before you overplayed it.
http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=70175

Read the entire comment thread. I think you'll find that very few people with any knowledge of history buy the bullshit.

Oh, and BTW, ad hom tu quoque is STILL not an argument. Even if you could prove that some other group was responsible for the level and number of atrocities committed by the Church over the centuries, it wouldn't do a thing to absolve the Church or to change its horrible history.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. such a false response -- you know very well there is NO true account of how many the Church murdered
over the centuries.

Just the existence of a work like the Malleus Maleficarum, and the sanctioning of it by the Catholic Church gives a hint as to how bloodthirsty they have been in the past.

How anyone can make excuses for an organization that reveled in the murder of others is beyond me.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Where did I claim to know how many died because of the Church?
It is possible to get a fairly reliable estimate based on several factors. I was referring to the number the number who died under communist-atheist dictatorships. Those numbers are gleaned from eyewitnesses and archives of the 20th century. I don't see anyone reveling in anything, but I do see much concern for the acts of 4 to 5 centuries ago, but little for those of the 20th century.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. And by your logic
anyone killed by a Christian is a death laid at the feet of Christianity. Even if we accept your flawed premise and play within the confines of your logical fallacy, the Church still comes out of this ridiculous sum game with far more blood on its hands.

Communism =/= atheism. Never has, never will.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Oh, excuse me. I forgot that we only discuss crimes of humanity when it involves
Christianity or religion.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
38. This IS the R/T forum.
If you'd like to discuss crimes against humanity committed specifically against or by gay people, visit the GLBT forum.

If you'd like to discuss crimes against humanity committed by President Obama, try GD, or several other places around here.

If you'd like to discuss crimes against humanity committed by vast conspiracies, try the 9/11 or other tin-foil-hat locations.

THIS is the R/T forum, and if we discuss crimes against humanity, then generally they will be somehow related to religion, and when you add in the fact that more people here are familiar with Christianity than other religions (Western site, whatchagonnado?), well you get exactly what you'd expect.

What did you think we talked about in this forum, puppies?
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. how can the Church evolve? That's like saying God has evolved.
If the church burned him in 1600, how can they deny today that they were wrong to burn him? God isn't that fickle.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. The Church has been evolving since day 1 along with all of humanity.
Simply because the Church is an organization specifically designed for imperfect people. Has God evolved? No. How people perceive and relate to God? Yes.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-10 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. Giordano Bruno's Trial, Imprisonment and execution is weird
Giordano Bruno had become a priest at age 24 having entered the Dominican Order at age 17. He stayed in the Dominican Order for 11 years, then ended up in Geneva (Where he gave up his priestly dress, more to keep the Calvinist the Geneva happy then anything else). He was forced to leave Geneva, then Lloyd and Paris. In 1583 he ended up in England but left in 1585. In 1585 he returned to Paris and attacked Aristotelian natural science, which had been the stable of Western Science since the time of Aristotle in the 3rd Century BC and was forced to flee to Germany in 1586. In 1591 he was back in Italy, he was arrested in 1592 and transferred to Rome, where he underwent a "Seven Year trial".

For more on Giordano Bruno see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

The biggest problem when it comes to Giordano Bruno is trying to determine WHY he was executed AND why was he in prison for Seven years BEFORE he was executed. Unlike today, when it may take years to execute someone, at that time you had your Trial, you had the right to appear, but that was generally done within 30 days and then executed. Why seven years in the case of Giordano Bruno? He had no followers, he had turned off not only the Catholics but the Protestantism based on his statements saying Christ was NOT God (Christ being one with God is the heart of Christian belief). The Christian view is that Christ was God living as a man NOT as a God living among men (This later concept is found in many Ancient Greek and Roman Myths and rejected by the early Christian Church).

By 1600, the Catholic Church had adopted the concepts of the Counter-Reformation and was on the march to reclaim Protestant Europe. In fact the Religious wars of the 1600s reflects more Protestant opposition to this re-adoption of Catholicism then any advance of Lutheranism or Calvinism. We have to remember one of the side affects of the Protestant Reformation was a massive take over of Church Properties in Protestant Countries. These lands were taken from the Catholic Church without compensation and then given to the ruling elites of those Protestant Countries. The side affect of this land theft was massive opposition to anything Catholic in Protestant Countries. This opposition was based on the fear of these new land owners that they knew their lands had been stolen from the Catholic Church AND if the Catholic Church became the major religion in their area the Catholic Church would sooner or later demand that the land be returned (Remember the land had been stolen). Given this background the Protestant hated Catholics BUT it was on economic grounds not religious grounds. Giordano Bruno seems to have been to much for the Protestants and later for the Catholics, but for what people at that time would call eccentric religious beliefs. Giordano Bruno appears to have been his own victim, he had a long history of being very sarcastic and finally it appears he lost whatever Friends he had and then the most radical Catholic saw someone they could execute without offending anyone else. Thus it appears Giordano Bruno was executed in 1600 NOT for his observation that the earth revolved around the sun, nor even his religious outlooks (if either had been the case he would have been executed in 1593, when he was captured not seven years later) but as a person everyone in Europe had come to hate (Both Catholics and Protestants) AND whose execution would cause no harm for Giordano Bruno had no followers.

Giordano Bruno had been well known during his life time, he had connections and even been the friend of various Popes. At the end, he seems to have no friends and thus he was a free ticket for those radicals who wanted to execute Protestants without causing any long term harm. No one wanted to defend him, so the radical had a free hand. Compared this with Galileo whose own actions regarding the Earth Circling the Sun was only 16 year later (Through his actual Conviction for Hearsay would be 38 years later). Both men were tried by the same Cardinal but given different sentences, Galileo was given house arrest (in his old age) while Giordano Bruno was executed. Something else is up in regards to the execution of Giordano Bruno, I suspect he was just thrown to the dogs for people who dealt with him grew to hate him and that caused him to be executed, while Galileo would live out his life in his own home.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
13. You're wasting your time worrying. I don't trust ANY institution.
Read THE DEMON HAUNTED WORLD or watch COSMOS by Carl Sagan. He's practically in tears over the destruction of the library at Alexandria in the first episode. The Christians were busy destroying libraries and knowledge in many places.

In Episode III, Sagan points out that Kepler's mother was thrown in jail for being a witch, because she would recite spells and he would write stories about going to the moon. Kepler was the guy who figured out that the planets run in elliptical orbits using Newton's laws.

The Protestants aren't exactly nice to scientists or heresy either.

John Calvin lured Michael Servetus to Geneva, for a debate. He sneaked into the back of a church to hear Calvin preach, was recognized and arrested, and then the local council had him barbecued at the stake.

Michael Servetus was from Transylvania and was the first Unitarian, and a martyr. Barbecued for heresy.

He was also a medical doctor who described the circulation of the blood.

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HowHasItComeToThis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. I REMEMBER THAT EPISODE I SCREAMED TO MY SELF
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-18-10 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #13
42. It is, of course, dishonest to attribute the loss of the Library of Alexandria
to Christianity: beyond claims that it was burned in 48BC and 391AD or that its scrolls were used to heat bath houses in 640AD, it seems possible that it was pillaged by various conquerers, since it is also said (for example) that Mark Anthony gave FCleopatra hundreds of thousands of scrolls from the nearby Pergamon library

http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/articles/ArticleView.cfm?AID=9
http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-18-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
43. The destruction of the "Library" of Alexandria is questionable.
Edited on Tue May-18-10 09:55 PM by happyslug
For more details see the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria_library

http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm

Here is a comment on a pagan and anti-Christian author who wrote about the Burning of the "Library":



The pagan writer Eunapius of Antioch (died after 400AD) included an account of the sack of the Serapeum in his Life of Antonius who, before he died in 390AD, had prophesied that all the pagan temples in Alexandria would be destroyed (not a desperately surprising contingency at the time). Eunapius wants to show how right he was. As well as being a pagan, Eunapius is vehemently anti-Christian and spares no effort in making Theophilus and his followers look as foolish as possible. His narrative is laced with venom and sarcasm as he describes the sack of the temple as a battle without an enemy. If a great library had been destroyed then Eunapius, the pagan scholar, would surely have mentioned it. He does not.


Lives of the Philosophers by Eunapius:
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eunapius_02_text.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=C80ooPNa0nEC&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=Eunapius+-+Lives+of+the+Philosophers+Antonius&source=bl&ots=Zy0boX5kmO&sig=HUJjSqIVHTPeqG0p8W3hx-EyRQY&hl=en&ei=fEjzS-bDK8WAlAejpKysDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Since the above author paraphase Eunapius, I will quote Eunapius fully in regards to the Serapeum (In this translation called the Serapis):

An exception must be made of one of her sons; his name was Antoninus, and I mentioned him just now; he crossed to Alexandria, and then so greatly admired and preferred the mouth of the Nile at Canobus, that he wholly dedicated and applied himself to the worship of the gods there, and to their secret rites. He made rapid progress towards affinity with the divine, despised his body, freed himself from its pleasures, and embraced a wisdom that was hidden from the crowd. On this matter I may well speak at greater length. He displayed no tendency to theurgy and that which is at variance with sensible appearances, perhaps because he kept a wary eye on the imperial views and policy which were opposed to these practices.53 But all admired his fortitude and his unswerving and inflexible character, and those who were then pursuing their studies at |421 Alexandria used to go down to him to the seashore. For, on account of its temple of Serapis, Alexandria was a world in itself, a world consecrated by religion: at any rate those who resorted to it from all parts were a multitude equal in number to its own citizens, and these, after they had worshipped the god, used to hasten to Antoninus, some, who were in haste, by land, while others were content with boats that plied on the river, gliding in a leisurely way to their studies. On being granted an interview with him, some would propound a logical problem, and were forthwith abundantly fed with the philosophy of Plato; but others, who raised questions as to things divine, encountered a statue. For he would utter not a word to any one of them, but fixing his eyes and gazing up at the sky he would lie there speechless and unrelenting, nor did anyone ever see him lightly enter into converse with any man on such themes as these.

Now, not long after, an unmistakable sign was given that there was in him some diviner element. For no sooner had he left the world of men than the cult of the temples in Alexandria and at the shrine of Serapis was scattered to the winds, and not only the ceremonies of the cult but the buildings as well, and everything happened as in the myths of the poets when the Giants gained the upper hand. The temples at Canobus also suffered the same fate in the reign of Theodosius, when Theophilus 54 presided over the abominable ones like a sort of Eurymedon

Who ruled over the proud Giants,55 |423

and Evagrius was prefect of the city, and Romanus in command of the legions in Egypt.56 For these men, girding themselves in their wrath against our sacred places as though against stones and stone-masons, made a raid on the temples, and though they could not allege even a rumour of war to justify them, they demolished the temple of Serapis and made war against the temple offerings, whereby they won a victory without meeting a foe or fighting a battle. In this fashion they fought so strenuously against the statues and votive offerings that they not only conquered but stole them as well, and their only military tactics were to ensure that the thief should escape detection. Only the floor of the temple of Serapis they did not take, simply because of the weight of the stones which were not easy to move from their place. Then these warlike and honourable men, after they, had thrown everything into confusion and disorder and had thrust out hands, unstained indeed by blood but not pure from greed, boasted that they had overcome the gods, and reckoned their sacrilege and impiety a thing to glory in.

Next, into the sacred places they imported monks, as they called them, who were men in appearance but led the lives of swine, and openly did and allowed countless unspeakable crimes. But this they accounted piety, to show contempt for things divine. For in those days every man who wore a black robe and consented to behave in unseemly fashion in public,57 possessed the power of a tyrant, to such a pitch of virtue had the human race advanced! All this however I have described in my Universal |425 History. They settled these monks at Canobus also, and thus they fettered the human race to the worship of slaves, and those not even honest slaves, instead of the true gods. For they collected the bones and skulls of criminals who had been put to death for numerous crimes, men whom the law courts of the city had condemned to punishment, made them out to be gods, haunted their sepulchres,58 and thought that they became better by defiling themselves at their graves. "Martyrs" the dead men were called, and "ministers" of a sort, and "ambassadors" from the gods to carry men's prayers,----these slaves in vilest servitude, who had been consumed by stripes and carried on their phantom forms the scars of their villainy.59 However these are the gods that earth produces! This, then, greatly increased the reputation of Antoninus also for foresight, in that he had foretold to all that the temples would become tombs.60 Likewise the famous Iamblichus, as I have handed down in my account of his life, when a certain Egyptian invoked Apollo, and to the great amazement of those who saw the vision, Apollo came: "My friends," said he, "cease to wonder; this is only the ghost of a gladiator." So great a difference does it make whether one beholds a thing with the intelligence or with the deceitful eyes of the flesh. But Iamblichus saw through marvels that were present, whereas Antoninus foresaw future events. This fact of itself argues his superior powers. His end came painlessly, when he had attained to a ripe old |427 age free from sickness. And to all intelligent men the end of the temples which he had prognosticated was painful indeed.

The text is around footnote 55 on the following translation:
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eunapius_02_text.htm
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AlecBGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
17. One point
"Surely, a "philosopher" of the caliber of Jesus with the knowledge of God would have let it slip that we are but one planet in a sea of planets in the cosmos, that we are not alone."

As a teacher, I can attest to this fact: you cant tell students EVERYTHING because it will make their head pop. You do a little at a time, and as they grasp basic ideas you move on to more difficult concepts.

(Assuming you believe he existed) Jesus had one message to spread: He and the Father are one and he came to set us free from sin & death. Thats a tough enough message by itself and it got him killed. He didnt need to add in a discussion of exoplanets and solar physics.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. So why did he just do that little and never come back?
Shouldn't this have been an ongoing dialog? As humanity matures, he comes back to teach us more, etc., etc.?

Why did he visit when we were ignorant, illiterate bronze age nomads, and never come back?
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AlecBGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. a few things
#1) To a Christian, what he said and did isnt 'just a little' :)

#2) Teachers dont follow their students forever, instructing them. They try to get the learner to take command of their own learning and get them to search and discover for themself. Somebody once said "education isnt filling a bucket...its lighting a fire." I like that analogy! I think that is what Christ tried to do, to light fires under our butt to seek to know God. Personally, I am drawn to God whenever I contemplate creation, that is, the universe, the earth and all thats in it. I think thats one reason why I enjoy being outside so much, why I studied science in college and why I teach it today. Certainly not "THE SOLE REASON", but a big one nonetheless.

#3) He did come back (the Resurrection, appearing to the apostles) if you believe that, which IIRC you dont. According to what he said, he will also come again (thats what she said. sorry :P).

I hope these answer your questions. If not, let me know and Ill try to rephrase what I mean.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Nope, no answers.
1) Which Christians? The little he gave you has caused enough confusion that there have been several thousand different sects and cults that each have their own spin.

2) No, but teachers don't just teach Kindergartners their ABCs and then kick them out into the real world. As the child grows and matures, they get further instruction, building on the material that came before.

3) Yeah, see, you haven't established the veracity of your bible yet. There's a couple billion other people on this planet along with me who are unconvinced of the truth of your particular holy text.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
19. The mythology of Bruno results from the fact that he was the victim of the Roman Inquisition to be
burned alive. He was not actually a scientist in any sense: he did not make observations, he did not conduct experiments, he did not construct quantitative models of the world. Bruno's work might best be described as speculative philosophy, and a modern reader will mostly find it bizarre and unpalatable woo-woo. Bruno himself was argumentative, egotistical, and unpleasant to anyone who disagreed with him; moreover, the "scientific" ideas, that one finds here and there in his work, seem generally to have been stolen without any attribution from other people. The man wandered across Europe for some years, leaving in his wake a long trail of irritated people who didn't want to see him again and places to which he was unwelcome to return

Italian politics at that time was a brutal sport, as was politics throughout Europe, and the religious disputes associated with the Reformation often provided a convenient propaganda cover when other material conflicts existed. Bruno's "trial" lasted an astounding seven years, and must have produced a voluminous record; the fact that the Vatican entirely and forever "lost" that record, and only finally found a short summary of the proceedings in 1940, after decades of searching, strongly suggests that the whole affair had quickly become a matter of enormous embarrassment to various people originally involved, who thought it might be best for their reputations if the actual details were never known. My guess would be that Bruno's trial continued because he irritated and alienated people; that it continued long because he was vague and slippery in argumentation, so nobody could actually decipher clearly anything he said; that he was finally condemned because it was momentarily politically expedient to scapegoat him, with nobody objecting much because he had no friends; and that the record was promptly lost because any informed person, who read it dispassionately at the time, would have discerned the sham and found improper motives in the condemnation

We have a long discussion of Bruno here several years ago: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=112604#112735
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
22. K&R
What Else Might it Be Wrong About?

- Pretty much ALL of it......
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
39. You want to refight 400 or 500 year-old fights, as if they were fresh and new
But in fact they are moldy and covered with dust

The Roman Inquisition has been rehashed by generation after generation by now. At the time, the events were colored by sloganeering that looks idiotic to us in retrospect. Today, we ought to be far enough removed from the events to be able to examine them without our own idiotic sloganeering and with a dispassionate eye for factual historical detail, in the hope of actually learning something useful from the events

The Wittenburg Door and the Diet of Worms were 500 years ago: the whole modern Protestant establishment is an offshoot of fifteenth and sixteenth century criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church, just as the whole of Christendom was an earlier offshoot of first century criticisms of the Judaic religious establishment in the Roman imperial era. It is, of course, true that Christendom, entire or in schism, has often failed to heed the old warning You hypocrites! Get that beam out of your own eye before trying to remove the speck from anyone else's eye -- and in this respect we sadly resemble almost everyone else in the world, you included





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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Jesus was in favor of asskicking and the OT psychotic murderous God.
Your bible is NOT consistent. Jesus was not recorded to be a nice guy all the time.

They should throw out the condemning hateful stuff Jesus said (emphasizing the law and the prophets), and keep the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes.

But they don't. They get their jollies from being hateful and authoritarian.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Forgive my dim-wittedness: I cannot see how my post provokes that
particular reaction from you, and in fact I see little if any nexus between what I wrote and your response

Of course, if you read the Gospels and Epistles as psychotic, murderous, and hateful texts, then I can only say I do not read the texts as you do, and I should counsel you to go discover and read other texts, more to your tastes: a mere shouting match, over how one ought to read the texts, strikes me as uninformative, uninteresting, and unproductive
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