Do you Christians realise how TURNED OFF some of us are?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

I am so sick of hearing about Jesus and how wonderful he is for the last fifty odd years.

I was raised presbyterian. I graduated from a very fine Presbyeterian university where I got a wonderful education. I believed and went to church and had faith, read my bible, got baptised. They I asked people in two large churches with severalhundred people to help me get ajob. I was willing to help them spread the gospel, help them make CDs and DVDs to help, if they would pay my DH and I for our skills. We wanted to build a community center with funds from a DVD that DH had programmed, which told the story of a remarkable highly moral politician who had been a member of the congregation, and was now deceased. We wanted to help spread the legacy of that politicians morality.

They wouldn't help. The preacher wanted all the money after I spent a week slaving over a grant proposal.

Now I am totally against Christianity because they refused to help. I decided that if they were people of God, these are several thousand people, and nobody would help us find jobs, I decided that God wanted us to starve. Furthermore, I got sick of being told what a horrible sinner and evil piece of shit I am because I am human when I am minding my own business and doing the best I can. That made me fucking suicidal.

I told the preachers it made me want to crawl in a hole and DIE. One night I went home and tried to slash my wrists, and checked myself into the county funny farm for two weeks, so I would not be around knives and not hurt myself.

I walked away. Christianity is cruel. Christianity kills childrens' and adults' spirits by placing them in FEAR. Original sin is abusive and crooked. Read John Bradshaw's HEALING THE SHAME THAT BINDS YOU. Christianity is a death cult. Its basic premise is cruel. Original sin is a false problem from a fairy tale of two fruitmunching idiots. Jesus is a false answer in substitutionary atonement to a problem that does not exist. The idea that God needs animals sacrificed to him is extremely superstitious animistic magic.

There is nothing unique in the values of Christianity.

Let me tell you about this cool guy. He was born on Dec. 25th, in a manger. Wondrous signs appeared in the heavens around his time of birth. He performed miracles. He was the son of God.
He walked on water. He was a prophet and had magical powers.

Do you know his name? Jesus.
His other name? Apollo, the sun god.
Other name? Mithra.
Other name? Osiris of the Egyptians.

All those gods had exactly the same attributes as Jesus. We don't even know if he really existed.

I will not take as my moral guides a bunch of illiterate, superstitious, unscientific goatherders.

Today I had a jesus freak get in my face and tell me "You won't get to heaven worshiping Buddha and meditating". I told him, "Buddha is NOT a god. He never said he was a god. He said he was an enlightened man. It's a philosophy about impermanence and that the cause of suffering is desire, and in the meantime you should follow the middle way".

He said the bible was god's word. I said "Well, Mohammed says there is NO god but Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet". Other religions say they have the revealed word of God. Joseph Smith and his golden Plates that Moroni led him to that he translated". The Jews say they are the chosen people. Lots of other religions say they are the only way. Millions of people disagree with you and these are cultural ideas. All were written by MEN. " This guy apparently does not know the Bible as well as I do. I told him about my courses in old testament, textual analysis, dating different sources like J,E,D,P and then he got on my case for taking course and saying I was studying too much. I said "Education is ALWAYS a good thing". He didn't know about the mistranslations and I told him we read the New English Bible, now called the Revised English Bible.


Well, what can I say he listens to Fox and just can't accept ideas. I short out his mind. I bombard him with facts and history and I am a highly educated female.

I am waiting for his head to explode. That will be messy, spectacular and memorable.

I wish they would keep their damn mouths shut. Some day I am gonna explode.

It's destroyed lots of families. That's one thing Jesus was right about, setting families against one another.


I study Buddhism.

The cherry on top: He said our Constitution comes from the Ten Commandments.

I said, "No, it comes from Jean Jacques Rousseau and the idea that all men have unalienable rights, given to them by their Creator, and that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

"This is from the Enlightment of the 1700s. This was written in the 1760s, before the American Revolution and the French Revolution. Does the Ten Commandments say anything about inalienable rights?? NO? Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?? NO. The Bible says if you are a slave be happy to serve your master".

[notadmblnd]

1. My blood begins to boil when someone mentions god

and I hate, absolutely hate the phrase "I'm blessed or have a blessed day"

[Rageneau]

2. Jesus loves you.

[Betty Karlson]

110. He even loves me - and I am a Christian!

Yes, this Calvinist here clearly understands how much and why some of you are turned off.

Paraphrasing Kierkegaard: Sitting among the gentiles, I see a thousand reasons to become Christian. Sitting among Christians, I see a thousand reasons to give up on it.

Even so, I have chosen to identify, still, as a Christian. After all, there is nothing wrong with God's commandments and Jesus' words, there's just a lot wrong with Churches all over the World. But then, God and Jesus have warned us many times about that.

[MikeH]

129. I take issue with your statement that there is nothing wrong with the commands attributed to God

I disagree with your statement: “After all, there is nothing wrong with God's commandments and Jesus' words.”

I take it that by “God’s commandments” you mean commandments that are allegedly from God or attributed to God in the Bible, and I further take it that you specifically mean what are known as the Ten Commandments, or that you mean to include them.

I first want to say that the Bible was written by fallible human beings, and I believe that it fully exhibits human fallibility and human prejudice just like anything else that has ever been written.

And as far as the Ten Commandments are concerned, I want to say that I very strongly think that at least one of the commandments, as stated in the Bible, is wrong. I am referring to the commandment which says to “honor your father and mother.” This commandment, in the biblical text, is unconditional, and makes no exceptions if one’s father or mother is or has been abusive, or negligent, or otherwise not worthy or not deserving of honor or respect.

I think it is very wrong to say that any person who has or has had an abusive parent or parents has any duty or obligation to honor such parents.

If anything, there should be a commandment directed to parents which says for them to treat their children with dignity and respect, that they (the children) might come to treat others with dignity and respect.

I think it is very unfortunate that the commandment to unconditionally “honor your father and mother” is one of the “Ten” Commandments which have come to lie in the center of Judeo-Christian and Western traditional morality, and is a commandment which is attributed to God.

The recently deceased Swiss writer and psychotherapist Alice Miller, in her books and on her web sites, documents the harmful consequences of accepting, “forgiving”, or exonerating parental abuse in the name of the commandment to “honor your father and mother.” Among these are physical illness (which she particularly documents in her book The Body Never Lies), and passing the abuse one has received from one’s parents to one’s own children, or to innocent scapegoats that are acceptable in one’s society (such as to the Jews in Nazi Germany, or to gays here in America).

It should be further noted that if a person has been taught from childhood to be mortally afraid of challenging or questioning one’s parents (under threat of punishment, and always reminded to always “honor your father and mother”), then that person is going to be afraid of questioning or challenging other authorities (religious, political, and otherwise) later in life. And a person’s unconscious fear of questioning or challenging one’s parents, and unconscious desire for revenge from childhood injuries, if not acknowledged and dealt with, will always eventually overpower reason, sooner or later, and in some way or another.

Alice Miller’s now online book titled For Your Own Good (a phrase my father very often used) documents that the major Nazi high officials and perpetrators of the Nazi holocaust, without exception as far as she could tell, all had very “strict” (actually brutal and soul-murdering) upbringings, in which they were taught, under threat of severe punishment (physical and otherwise) if they did not (and often even if they did), to always honor their parents, and to unquestioningly obey any order from them. And they all regarded such upbringings as being good, right, and normal, and they all considered that they owed a great deal to their upbringings.

There is one very telling passage about how the how the Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss was raised as a child, in a section of her book titled The "Sacred" Values of Child-Rearing, which includes a quote by him:

The strong emphasis on obedience in Rudolf Höss's early upbringing left its indelible mark on him, too. Certainly his father did not intend to raise him to be a commandant at Auschwitz; on the contrary, as a strict Catholic, he had a missionary career in mind for his son. But he had instilled in him at an early age the principle that the authorities must always be obeyed, no matter what their demands. Höss writes:

Our guests were mostly priests of every sort. As the years passed, my father's religious fervor increased. Whenever time permitted, he would take me on pilgrimages to all the holy places in our own country, as well as to Einsiedeln in Switzerland and to Lourdes in France. He prayed passionately that the grace of God might be bestowed on me, so that I might one day become a priest blessed by God. I, too, was as deeply religious as was possible for a boy of my age, and I took my religious duties very seriously. I prayed with true, childlike gravity and performed my duties as acolyte with great earnestness. I had been brought up by my parents to be respectful and obedient toward all adults, and especially the elderly, regardless of their social status. I was taught that my highest duty was to help those in need. It was constantly impressed upon me in forceful terms that I must obey promptly the wishes and commands of my parents, teachers, and priests, and indeed of all adults, including servants, and that nothing must distract me from I this duty. Whatever they said was always right. These basic principles by which I was brought up became second nature to me.

When the authorities later required Höss to run the machinery of death in Auschwitz, how could he have refused? And later, after his arrest, when he was given the assignment of writing an account of his life, he not only performed this task faithfully and conscientiously but politely expressed gratitude for the fact that the time in prison passed more quickly because of "this interesting occupation." His account has provided the world with deep insight into the background of a multitude of otherwise incomprehensible crimes.

Alice Miller also has an entire chapter on Hitler himself, which documents how the authoritarian and totalitarian household in which he was raised, of which his father was the absolute and often brutal ruler (who almost constantly beat or otherwise mistreated young Adolf), very much anticipated the authoritarian and totalitarian dictatorship which Hitler as an adult later established in Germany.

I myself used to be a Christian as a younger man, and I had a very difficult father. My father did many very good things, and many very nice things, and he was far from being the worst father anybody ever had. However my father often behaved in ways that would be considered at least somewhat abusive, especially verbally and emotionally (though I did receive my share of spankings as a kid). In particular he was often very judgmental, and very quick to pass judgment. He often acted like being father of his children and head of the house gave him certain arbitrary privileges (though he would always deny that was so). My dad would often treat an honest mistake, an honest forgetting of something, or something that was not up to his standards as if it were a crime or a heinous sin. And he would always say he was doing it “for my own good”. And he was often very poor at understanding, or trying to understand, from my point of view, some sensitive issue which was causing me to be upset, frustrated, or otherwise unhappy.

If I were angry or upset with my dad or with something he said or did, it was always regarded as being a problem with me, never with my dad or with anything he said or did.

I came to realize, about a year after my dad died in the mid-1980’s, how angry I still was at him. And I came to fully realize that he actually was abusive at times. I.e. it was not just something wrong (or “sinful”) with me that I had the problems I had with my dad, and often resented things he said or did, which problems and resentments spilled into other areas of my life, especially in my relationships with other people, and particularly in my early jobs.

It was one of my major frustrations and disappointments in life that I was not able to stand up to my dad or to confront him appropriately when he was abusive or obnoxious, not even when I was an adult. I was very often either intimidated, or sweet-talked, into going along with or accepting something he said or did that I really did not agree with or felt was not OK.

Along with the realization that my dad at times had actually been abusive came the realization that Christianity had been of absolutely no help to me in enabling me to deal with my dad those times he was obnoxious or abusive, and had been of no help to me in enabling me to deal with anything else that was a source of pain, frustration, or unhappiness in my life. In fact Christianity aggravated the problem I had with my dad with, among other things, the commandment to “honor your father and mother”, and a passage in Hebrews 12 which says to gladly accept the chastening of the Lord, like that of a “good” father. Another troublesome part of the Bible is the epistle of I Peter, whose message seems to be to basically accept undeserved suffering. In other words gladly take abuse, and let the Lord work things out.

And Jesus himself said to turn the other cheek, whatever that might “really” mean. Actually I have seen some explanations of what that and other sayings of Jesus supposedly “really” mean. I am no expert on the Bible, so I would not be able to say how good or accurate any such explanations are. I will say that I do not consider even the words of Jesus to be absolute, infallible truth, and I do not consider myself under any duty or obligation to regard any words or actions attributed to him as being such.

I eventually came to the point at which I saw that I needed to part company with the Christian faith, and to absolve myself of any duties and obligations specifically imposed by the faith (as opposed to duties and obligations incumbent on any good or moral person). I am very happy about having done so, and am as certain as I am of anything that doing so was the right and healthy thing for me to do.

And my problem was with Christianity itself, and with the Bible, and not specifically with any church or with any Christian or group of Christians.

If the God believed in by Christians and other theists is really real (note to atheists: IF), then our reasoning ability and our critical facilities are gifts which were given to us by God. And if that is the case then it is really honoring of God to use these gifts, and certainly it is much more honoring of God to use these gifts than it is to uncritically and unquestioningly accept any alleged revelation from God or anybody who claims to speak for God. And using our gifts of our reason and our critical facilities is also, I would think, much more honoring of God than cringing servile fear as of a cosmic tyrant.

(Personal disclosure: I consider myself to be a Deist, and just on the believing side of agnostic. I think that there are some good philosophical reasons that the possibility of there being some God, or of some being higher and greater than ourselves, is not absurd or ridiculous. However I do not regard any alleged revelation from God, such as the Bible or the Koran, to actually be such, and I think that neither of these books, whatever of value might be within their contents, is any more “infallible” or “inerrant” than any other book on the planet.)

[David Zephyr]

3. I was raised Christian, but at its core the theology is rooted in fear.

Fear of death. Fear of sickness. Fear of non-believers. Fear of 'the devil". Fear of hell. Fear of even reading a post like yours or mine.

And most of all, the Bible makes it clear over and over that humans must "fear God"...or else.

I accept I am a mortal who will get sick and who will die. That's part of the circle of life, the death part.

Bertrand Russell said it better: "I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive."

[Manifestor_of_Light]

4. I also got the copout of "it's not a religion it's a relationship with Jesus"

Tough shit. I got no relationship with God. He dropped his bullhorn or something......


:shrug:

I wish I had a 20 foot tall dancing shiva to put in the yard. The rednecks would use it for target practice.

[skeptical cynic]

5. As someone once said:

When one person has an imaginary friend they call it a delusion, but when a group of people have an imaginary friend they call it a religion.

Just ignore it. Most people who say they are religious really aren't, and the legislation that true believers seek to help force their views on everyone else will be self-limiting. The first day of the next revolution will be the first Sunday beer isn't available anywhere.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

6. kick

[stuball111]

7. Seems to be a common thread tonight...

thing is we have to remember is that no religion has a monopoly on God. And I happen to believe in a spirit of the universe that is of my own understanding. And the story of Jesus is inspiring if all the bullshit and fear is stripped away. Read Emmit Fox's "Sermon on the Mount" Good stuff when the "Yer a sinner and going to hell" crap. Most other forms of religion, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, all have common threads, trust in your higher power, clean house, and help others. Simple. We humans are inherently spiritual beings in some way. We can't help it.

Native Americans wandered the plains and mountains for centuries and were in awe of what they experienced. This lead to simple "religions" or codes to live by. Unfortunately for most "Christians" these days, they are being lead by organizations that depend heavily on money, and use fear, guilt and shame to keep people coughing up into the basket. That doesn't mean those who don't conform can't come to the party.

I got curious about Judaism for instance, and looked it up on the good ol internet machine,and read Judaism 101, a site I found, which spelled out the basics. My curiosity was piqued by the anti sematism and I wondered what all the hubub was about. After reading about it, I found some pretty cool stuff,and some boring and useless dogma. So when these people strut their superiority and pompousness, they are really little kids whistling in the dark. Best to stay away from them lest they brainwash you into the tea party!

And God? Well, just look up at the stars at night, or watch a bee in a flower, or little kid laughing... therein you will find him. And best not to argue with the fundies either... it's a waste of oxygen

[get the red out]

8. I agree with every word you said

Lives are destroyed daily by fundamentalist Christianity. I have to work very hard to keep from feeling absolute RAGE every time I think of that institution. It is difficult for me, rage destroys and I don't want to be destroyed by them, it takes a lot of effort for me to remember this every day. I see the destruction all around me, and how people are battered by their extremist religion into not caring for others, into condemning others. Their very compassion, a natural human trait, removed by this institution. It makes me ill. But we have to try to reflect OUR values, which I would put up against theirs any day of the week. OUR values of trying to make the world a better place through tolerance and helping others. I try to focus on that.

[asjr]

9. I agree. A parent must be quite sure

these days about religion. I was young when I joined a Protestant church. I enjoyed services until a new pastor came along. He was fire and brimstone and I soon went to another church, then another, then another. I quit going some time ago. I used to have a neighbor who preached to me every day. She is a lovely person, really, and helped me out numerous times in many ways. I have always wanted to say to her Are you trying to convince me Jesus loves me, or are you trying to convince yourself. She had been so scared of dying and going to hell, she does that to everyone she meets. Any religion that wants to consume a person with fright does not bode well. People actually avoid her now and that is such a shame.

[elocs]

10. DU really does need an Atheist forum where atheists may go to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya".

Oops, well maybe the atheist equivalent of "Kumbaya". That way they wouldn't have to come to the Religion/Theology forum to complain about religion and theology. Although it is so very rare that I ever get to read someone vent and rant about Christianity here at DU.

I have to admit that I don't care for guns, but I don't go to the Gungeon and post anti-gun threads.

[get the red out]

11. Question?

Is it automatic to assume that if one is not Christian, then they are automatically an Atheist? I am neither, and I don't support any discrimination against either. I have just seen that as a very common assumption on both sides, one is either a confirmed Christian OR an Atheist and if a person does not have an exact answer to "what are you" they do not exist.

I suggest that the damage done to Christians in general by fundamentalist Christianity will be the longest lasting damage of all, the far right has made that entire religion seem like something that is halting the progress of our country to many as they engage in hateful politics from the pulpit. Perhaps the anger of moderate Christians would be better spent on the extremists of the religion, who created the horrific public relations to begin with, rather than those who react to our society being damaged.

[TZ]

12. "Shut up and go away atheist"

I always love this type of post. Maybe Christians and other believers should have a forum where they can go and complain about the atheists complaining about religion and theology!
I'm sorry but I think we have every right to come here. Some of us prefer talking to people with different viewpoints instead of echo chambers (there is a group for atheists amd groups for believers).
And I have seen people start anti-gun or pro-control threads in the gungeon.
If you can't bear to hear the legitimate angry criticisms of religion maybe you can do something called "hide thread".
BTW, if you are so damn secure in your faith why the HELL does it bother you so much to hear angry atheists?

[dmallind]

13. Let's see

It's a point about the harm caused by religion. It's not about atheism. Why should it be in an atheist forum when there is a forum for religion?

Do you whine like a spoiled brat about the people who DO go into the guns forum to complain about guns? If not you have no credibility to do so here.

[Goblinmonger]

15. There is an atheist group just like there are groups for various religions

Should theists stop posting in here, too, because they can post in your group?

This is a forum for the discussion of religion/theology. Do you somehow think that only theists have opinions on religion/theology or that religion/theology doesn't impact those that don't believe.

Oh, and, no, I won't go to the back of the bus and shut up.

[elocs]

18. My group? Hmmm.... Sorry, this isn't my group because I'm not a believer,

but it is so very easy to get the atheists bent out of shape. Thanks for proving that...again.

[Goblinmonger]

19. You have a star

go to the atheist group and post away.

You still have not answered the fundamental questions. Should atheists be able to discuss religion and theology? Is that just for believers? Does religion/theology impact those that don't believe.

You're the one saying atheists should shut up. That might be good for the way you want to live your life, but not me. I'm not bent out of shape other than a little frustrated when people tell me that I can't discuss something on an open forum just because of the status of my belief in some random god.

Edited to add: Make sure you understand the roles of groups and forums on DU. This is a forum and is much more open to what can be said. The groups, which you need a star to post in, are more protected. Theists can't come to the atheist forum and preach. Likewise, atheists can't go to a religious group and post the same things they could in this forum. I'm sure you're still going to go on the "wicked atheist" meme, but maybe you'll surprise me by not being a house atheist like you seem to be at this point.

[darkstar3]

20. Well, let's see.

#10 was a request for atheists to go elsewhere combined with snide and self-righteous commentary. Same old song and dance, in other words. So for you to now claim that atheists are easy to piss off is a little like using the word bitch repeatedly and claiming women are easy to piss off.

[TZ]

21. Indeed.

Funny how people get mad when they are broad brushed insulted and told that their thoughts and opinons don't matter. I don't know WHY anyone would get mad about that...:sarcasm:

[Goblinmonger]

22. I was just being a fundamentalist, militant atheist.

I should listen to the house atheist and tone it down a bit.

[DeSwiss]

37. "If you can't stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen." n/t

[beam me up scottie]

45. When organized religion and its minions stop interfering in my life and the lives of others,

stay the hell out of my womb, are no longer shielded from prosecution for raping children, can't use their money and influence to prevent glbt people from obtaining and enjoying the civil rights the rest of us take for granted, stop murdering citizens of third world countries by lying to them about AIDs, and so on and so forth, I will stop complaining.

Of course, that can't happen unless the religious stand up, confront and reject the instructions given by their violent and sadistic gods.

Since that will never happen, why not get into the spirit?

Join the chorus as we hold hands and sing the http://atheistempire.com/mm_dl/animation/stand.html">"atheist equivalent of Kubaya".

[JNelson6563]

75. Oh snap bitches!

I was going to write a reply to that post put yours is perfect so I'll just second it. :toast:

Julie

[beam me up scottie]

78. !

:rofl:
You always crack me up!
:toast:

[salvorhardin]

88. Actually, can we have this song as the atheist version of Kumbaya?

Maybe it's not explicitly atheist, but it sure seems pretty humanist to me. And it's a hell of lot more fun than any old camp song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKKqLl_ZEEY

[beam me up scottie]

91. Yes, that IS much more Kumbaya than mine!

But it also trigged a major 80's flashback.


Try to be more careful with those things! :spank:

[TransitJohn]

85. The OP is about Religion/Theology

What is your beef with discussing such matters on the right forum? Of course, there is an Atheist and Agnostic Group, which is well used. How about the insecure/easily offended Christians use the Catholic/Orthodox Christian Group or the Christian Liberals/Progressive People of Faith Group if they lack the strength to discuss religion and theology with countering viewpoints?

[dmallind]

14. While I have sympathy, that's a poor reason to decide against anything

I'm certainly a fan of people finding out that Christianity is just another syncretic mishmash of regurgitated hero-tales so well done for that, but to start off on that path because one congregation didn't help you seems like a shallow reason. Maybe they disagreed with your plans. Maybe they thought they had better options for their money. Maybe they were just stingy selfish people (and the realization that believers are likely to be so every bit as much as anyone else is important to internalize before making further decisions). Basing your philosophy of life on the disappointment on finding out that those who shared your previous philosophy were imperfect is a reciope for round after round of crushing disappointment.

I'll save you the pain if I can - Buddhists can be total asswipes. So can atheists, Jains, Muslims, Pagans, Wiccans, animists and so on. It makes them human, not wrong. Opinions or beliefs should be judged on both deductive and inductive arguments for them. Christianity fails there on many levels - that it also contains asswipes (in your experience - again they could have had valid reasons) is irrelevant to how true or valid it may be (or rather not be).

[Manifestor_of_Light]

23. Nope. You will be shocked when I tell you who this is. This was somebody with STAR POWER.

The famous, ethical politician that was a member of this church, that we wanted to make a DVD life story of, and sell to build a nonprofit community center in her old hood, was:

THE HONORABLE BARBARA JORDAN.


Not just any politician. The Voice of God. We wanted to make a DVD that says "Ok, you may be poor and black, or brown, or white, but you can study hard and make it to Congress and make a difference in peoples' lives".

Now if that is not a worthy goal, I do not know what is. This is Good Hope Missionary Baptist Church.

We started going to her church, after she died in '96 because she was a great person and we wanted to check out her church and see if we could help perpetuate her legacy of integrity.

DH and I are white. We wanted to help people get inspired and realize their dreams.
We got our dreams crushed. DH went ahead and made a CD-ROM (This was years ago before DVDs) and we sold it on the internet ourselves. We sold about 20 copies.

We also went to Windsor Village UMC with Kirbyjon Caldwell (buddy of GW Bush) and wanted to get paid to make CDs of their services with video and audio and sell them to people that didn't get to church on Sunday morning. Nope, we were supposed to starve to death.

[dmallind]

27. Not questioining the value of your intent even without the name

All I'm saying is there could have been any number of reasons why they decided not to support your specific tribute to her financially. They may want somebody else to do it, or may want a different kind of tribute, or heck may want to restrict their support to blacks. It doesn't have to be a valid reason you agree with to be valid for them.

Again you know the situation and I don't - it's quite possible that you are completely right and they are just assholes who don't gove a crap about your problems. Let's say that they are - that's not a reason to turn against Christianity. There are plenty of reasons to do that but one congregation bieng assholes (even again if that's the real reason they turned you down) isn't one of them IMO.

Anyway a minor nitpick not worth arguing about as it's subjective and unable to be proven either way so I'll take it from you that they simply didn't care if you starved. I just want to make sure that you at least hear that assholes are not confined to Xianity and that assholes are not always wrong, that's all. Hope you don't get to find that out too many times!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

29. I DONT HAVE TIME TO GO TO EVERY SINGLE CHURCH AND ASK FOR A JOB.

Sorry, this was two MEGA churches practically. Both had several ministers and staff.

I know assholes are not confined to Christianity.

It seems that they are quite visible because they are so vocal about how gawdly and righteous they are, and arbitrary and capricious and plain fucking greedy.

And how you better be just like 'em or you're goin to hell.

I do know some individual Christians that are good people.

[dmallind]

31. why should churches automatically give you one?

The idea seems to be that they are assholes becaus ethey didn't hire you. If that was the only reason then surely it is worth some time to be hired elsewhere? I'm sensing a bit of entitlement thinking here.

[beam me up scottie]

41. I don't understand your point either.

You are an highly educated person and you were only qualified to make dvds about christians and religious services?
And you weren't even applying for a particular position, you were soliciting. If you were so poor that you would literally go hungry if you weren't hired, why didn't you just seek assistance?

All of us have applied for jobs and been rejected, does that mean that those companies wanted us to starve? Did you even consider focusing on different subject matter?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

59. No we were not only qualified to make DVDs about christians.

You totally missed the point.

I thought that Christians were supposed to help each other out with a community. I did not want charity; I wanted a job where I would give them value and they would pay me. I was wrong; they didn't give a shit about promoting the message of Black empowerment through education and the example of Barbara Jordan; nor did they give a shit about making DVDs that people could buy to see the sermons when they were out of town, for example.


By the way, there were no Black programmers pounding on their door to make digital media for them about anything. In the hundreds of people I met, I saw no Black people who wanted to do what we wanted to do.

I took the DVD to a prominent secular ad agency and I called them back after doing a presentation. The woman I talked to kept saying "We can't do this we can't do that". I said, "Tell me what you CAN do. You're a professional advertising person. I don't want to hear about what you CANNOT do."

:grr:

We proposed it because it would be good for them, to raise money for a non-profit community center in the Fourth Ward to help people in a poor black hood, and we could make a living doing something to help other people, making a video to give people hope with a REAL WORLD STORY about a REAL WOMAN who did great things with her life.

We both applied for many other jobs in the secular world. For years and years. By the time we went to the two big churches, we were just about ready to off ourselves. That's where I was when I decided I couldn't stand all that shit about original sin and I had to go stay in the county mental hospital with a suicide attempt on my record. That stay was a complete fucking waste of time. The doctors give you lots of tests but I got one hour of game playing/art therapy a week and the rest of the time you sat around and read or watched TV. Complete waste of time. And when I told the doctors to tell me what I needed to know to help me, they got very arrogant, because I was trying to speak to them as an educated person who wanted useful information.

[beam me up scottie]

61. Are you actually saying that this one negative experience made you an atheist?

I am sorry you couldn't get the help you needed from medical professionals, I really am, but I still don't understand why any of this is the fault of christians or christianity.

Artists have had their work rejected for thousands of years, why are you taking the rejection of yours so personally that you are blaming an entire religion?

Isn't it possible that your dvd just wasn't that brilliant and that your proposal wasn't feasible?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

65. Everyone I showed it to was practically in tears over it.

I don't have to prove anything to you; however:

People were very moved by it.

Between the footage of the 1976 Democratic National Convention keynote speech, where she said she was not included in the original Constitution, and her famous speech when she was on the House Judiciary Committee investigating Watergate, where she said,

"My faith in the Constitution is WHOLE, it is COMPLETE, it is TOTAL; and I will not be an idle spectator to the destruction, the subversion, the diminution of the Constitution" it was extremely moving.

We got interview footage with Dan Rather from the local CBS affiliate, KHOU-TV. We got some documents and pictures from the Barbara Jordan Archives at Texas Southern University. We had over an hour of actual broadcast video on this DVD. We did our homework.

We did not write this up on a sheet of notebook paper and then take a picture of it, believe me.

We worked on it for several months.

However, this experience was horrifying to me because the church had this wonderful example of Barbara Jordan, and didn't want to use it to help the community or the first white members this church had had since its founding 125 years prior, shortly after the Civil War. Not that I wanted to be an example, I just wanted to help the black community make good use of one of its great citizens.

Also, because the two churches combined had a membership of several thousand people, and I'm sure there were people who could have provided seed money for a trial run.

The preacher at Barbara Jordan's church wanted TWO-THIRDS of the money for himself.

We said, pay us one-third, two-thirds to the non-profit Barbara Jordan Community Center you will establish to administer this.

Greedy bastard.

[beam me up scottie]

67. So a black church didn't want "highly educated" white folks to "help people in a poor black hood"?

Ah, now it all makes sense.

Here's what you've posted and my interpretation of What Really Happened:

We started going to her (Barbara Jordan) church, after she died in '96 because she was a great person and we wanted to check out her church and see if we could help perpetuate her legacy of integrity.

You were desperate for work and thought that the death of Barbara Jordan provided the perfect opportunity to capitalize on her good name, so you infiltrated her church in order to profit from her death.

We both applied for many other jobs in the secular world. For years and years. By the time we went to the two big churches, we were just about ready to off ourselves.

I took the DVD to a prominent secular ad agency and I called them back after doing a presentation. The woman I talked to kept saying "We can't do this we can't do that"

You couldn't find jobs in your field and even though "People were very moved by it", you couldn't sell your dvd to secular businesses either.

Did they want you to starve too?



By your own admission you weren't simply trying "to help the black community make good use of one of its great citizens", you were hitting up them up because you wanted "seed money":

I asked people in two large churches with severalhundred people to help me get ajob. I was willing to help them spread the gospel, help them make CDs and DVDs to help, if they would pay my DH and I for our skills.

The famous, ethical politician that was a member of this church, that we wanted to make a DVD life story of, and sell to build a nonprofit community center in her old hood

I wanted a job where I would give them value and they would pay me.

Also, because the two churches combined had a membership of several thousand people, and I'm sure there were people who could have provided seed money for a trial run.

The following posts are even more illuminating:

DH and I are white We wanted to help people get inspired and realize their dreams.

they didn't give a shit about promoting the message of Black empowerment through education and the example of Barbara Jordan

Translation:
"Ooooh, lookit us! We're highly educated white people here "to help people in a poor black hood", ain't we somethin?"





The last two nails in this particularly smelly coffin are these statements:

By the way, there were no Black programmers pounding on their door to make digital media for them about anything. In the hundreds of people I met, I saw no Black people who wanted to do what we wanted to do.

However, this experience was horrifying to me because the church had this wonderful example of Barbara Jordan, and didn't want to use it to help the community or the first white members this church had had since its founding 125 years prior, shortly after the Civil War. Not that I wanted to be an example, I just wanted to help the black community make good use of one of its great citizens.

What Really Happened:

By the time you got done 'splainin to dem po' black folks over and over and over again that they NEEDED TO PROMOTE THE MESSAGE OF BLACK EMPOWERMENT by PAYING YOU MONEY FOR A PRODUCT THEY DIDN'T WANT, they threw you out on your lily white asses.

And I'll wager it had nothing to do with their religion.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

86. No good deed goes unpunished.

Clare Boothe Luce was right. She said that.

[beam me up scottie]

87. What good deed? You tried to capitalize on a dead woman's legacy and failed.

You didn't volunteer your time, resources or product, this is what you did:

1)
After "years and years" of failure in your chosen profession, you joined Barbara Jordan's church after her death because you saw an opportunity for financial gain.


2)
You made what was probably a racially condescending and intellectually insulting dvd since it was put together by people who thought their skin color "DH and I are white. We wanted to help people get inspired and realize their dreams." and their education elevated them above their target audience "people in a poor black hood".


3)
You pitched it by insisting the church needed to promote YOUR message of BLACK EMPOWERMENT because after all, you WERE "the first white members this church had had since its founding 125 years prior, shortly after the Civil War. Not that I wanted to be an example" :eyes:, and instead of thanking you for slumming it, they told you to go pound sand.



And even though you couldn't get a secular ad agency (or anyone else, for that matter) to buy your dvd, you concluded that this was the fault of christianity, that christians in general sucked, and that god wanted you to starve.



You are NOT a victim and altruism is such a foreign concept for you, you wouldn't know it if it bit ya on your highly educated ass.



a good deed... phhhht! :spray:

:rofl:

[Dorian Gray]

66. I had the same reaction

to the story.

I know there are churches that are highly suspect and unethical, but this doesn't resonate with me for a reason to be justifiably angry with Christianity as a whole. (There are many other experiences that I understand much more. Abuse, etc.)

[beam me up scottie]

68. Now that the op has elaborated, it all makes sense - this had nothing to do with christianity.

The whole story stinks to high heaven, I can't believe anyone recommended it.

Ugh.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

71. I think your interpretation is nuts.

I got verbal abuse with original sin and what horrible sinners we all were, 'our righteousness is as filthy rags' etc. --- enough to make me think about knives a whole lot.

I am angry with Christianity as a whole.

I think the preacher was greedy. If they don't like a professionally produced product, that could help 'em raise money for a community center that is needed, then they can just go to hell.

[Dorian Gray]

74. That product may not have met their needs for a variety of reasons

There are many reasons to be unhappy with Christianity in general. I struggle with my beliefs a lot, and the Catholic Church in particular. A lot.

But not being given a job or an opportunity reads more as though you were personally affronted, and your gripe, though perhaps valid, is a sweeping generalization against a huge and varied community. I can't see where you sweeping generalization comes from this particular experience. It's a bizarre reaction in my mind.

[Critters2]

130. And then there's the suicide aspect.

Suicide is the result of mental illness. To blame that degree of depression on a church is beyond irrational.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

131. No, it isn't, not when they tell you how evil and sinful you are.

Just because they want to control you.

My mistake was taking their fairy tale bullshit seriously.

[Goblinmonger]

16. Dude, I'm sorry you had to go through all of that.

What theists need to remember, though, is that not every atheist had those experiences. We haven't all rejected theism because of bad experiences. I went to a Catholic seminary. Had a great experience. Still have very close friends that are former classmates and are currently priests. I just came to the realization that it was all just mythology. No hard feelings to religion at all.

But, man, I'm sorry for what you had to go through.

[raccoon]

17. Rec'd. I've encountered many of this type too. They think they're soooo superior

to you (and just about everybody else) because THEY'RE "saved," and only those who think EXACTLY THE WAY THEY DO are going to "heaven," and all the rest are going to "hell."

Such unbelievable arrogance boggles the mind.

[rug]

24. You're an atheist because you decided that God wanted you to starve?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

28. IF god works allegedly through "his people" and nobody helps me get a job, yes.

Secular Humanist Unitarian Universalist who reads Hinduism/Buddhism to counteract the Abrahamic bullshit.

[Angry Dragon]

25. Atheists belong in the Religion/Theology forum

From the way I read the definition of religion found in the Webster's dictionary (found below) is that any set of beliefs is a religion. A set of beliefs does not have to have within it a belief of a god.

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

— re·li·gion·less adjective

[beam me up scottie]

26. Actually, atheists and non-theists are allowed to post here because Skinner said so.

And I believe in Skinner.

[immoderate]

34. Amen.

--imm

[beam me up scottie]

42. Great to see you're still active in The Arena!

:hi:

[immoderate]

48. I read it a bit -- post rarely.

Haven't we already said it all?

And I always watch for your posts. :hi:

--imm

[DeSwiss]

39. Hallelujah!!!

[beam me up scottie]

43. Hope you and yours stayed safe and dry the last couple of weeks.

Things got a little dicey here, but the FSM heard my prayers, realized I was special and saved our house.

I made sure I publicly thanked him for loving me more than my neighbors on the National Day of Prayer.

[DeSwiss]

49. Just damp for me and mine mostly......

...but a lot of neighbors down and across the road closer to the creek weren't so fortunate....



The city continues digging out and throwing away. And its still raining and hasn't quit except for a couple of days before it starts up again.

- There's talk of changing the state flower to mold......

[beam me up scottie]

52. We're just north-west of you and faired the same.

I'm next to a creek that's normally nothing but a mud puddle. Our foundation was flooded but the water never reached the floor.

Flood vigil sucks - especially at night, I was by myself and couldn't leave (I do have a kayak but didn't have enough bungee cords to strap all of our critters to the deck).

I was taking pictures of the water when it finally went over the bridge and found one flood refugee you don't want to mess with:

[DeSwiss]

58. DAY--UM!!!

That looks like it was a lot of fun to clean up! :( Unfortunately, this is an all-too familiar scene because Nashville is RULED by developers (as are many southern towns) and that was especially so in the 90's and the early aughts. Because when you cover up the land with roofs, driveways and new streets to get to 'em, then this is what you get:














- I was the President of our neighborhood association back in the 90's and early aughts and we fought the city planning commission for storm water improvements. We still haven't got 'em......

[beam me up scottie]

60. I felt sorry for that poor snake, he's just as much a victim as anyone else :)

I saved several critters (including a large garter snake) from debris piles but I decided to leave Mister Pissed Off Water Snake alone. He managed to hold his own for hours and was gone the next morning.

I'm from the north where our rivers and lakes were made by nature and I simply cannot fathom why people think that a monster like the Cumberland can be tamed by earthen and concrete dams.

Speaking of dams, are you at all concerned about Wolf Creek?



And don't even get me started about developers. :mad:
For some reason, in this part of the country, those greedy, evil leeches are allowed to subdivide and bulldoze at will.

Beautiful bluegrass pastures where generations of thoroughbred colts used to frolic have been destroyed and replaced by gated communities of McMansions.




I miss my beautiful, independent home state of Vermont.

[struggle4progress]

30. I am curious about your claims that Apollo, Mithra, and Osiris were born in mangers

since I never heard any such claims

I heard that Apollo was one of a pair of twins born under a tree on the floating island of Delos, before it became rooted to the sea bottom; that Mithra sprang from a rock, fully dressed, torch and dagger in hand; that Osiris was one of the quintuplets born to the goddess Nut on five successive days, his wife and sister Isis being another of the children

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. Well, there are pro-atheist websites that just make stuff up about religion, just as there are

pro-fundy websites that just make stuff up about atheists.

[struggle4progress]

33. A pox on all their houses, I say

[darkstar3]

35. The trouble is telling the difference

between myth made up thousands of years ago and myth made up last week.

[beam me up scottie]

38. Which is why some christian DUers shouldn't ridicule scientology or any other religion/cult/woo.

The ones who have a snit whenever their religion is criticized and/or mocked keep breaking my hypocrisy meter.

;)

[darkstar3]

44. Precisely.

Where've you been, BMUS? We missed you. :hug:

[beam me up scottie]

46. Life's been tough down here lately.

The only retreat we can afford is the wilderness, so we've been spending a lot of time back country. I do miss the internet but I can hack it as long as I have my music.

I hope you're doing okay. :hug:

[darkstar3]

47. I think the phrase is "things are tough all over."

I'm working 80 a week, getting paid for 40, and aging rapidly because of it. There's been a lot of crap going down, but to quote one of my favorite shows, "we're still flyin'."

I don't know how you do it. I don't think I could live without the internet. I've been an addict since I was a teenager.

[beam me up scottie]

51. Holy crap.

How do you find the time to sleep? Please don't end up in the hospital from exhaustion ~ been there, done that, it's not worth it.

I'm still an internet addict, just more disciplined. It wasn't easy training myself to unplug from the net and I'll admit it took a while even though I lived without a tv quite happily for years.

When so much is wrong with the world, I have to distance myself, filter the intelligence, take it in small doses. That's one of the beautiful things about the net, I can get all the news from reputable sources minus the stupid comments and propaganda.

Otoh, nature never fails to blow me away (but in a good way). Never. I can't get enough. Even the tornadoes and massive flooding we've endured during the last two weeks were awe inspiring.

I could be a hermit as long as I had music and internet access.

[darkstar3]

53. "I could be a hermit as long as I had music and internet access."

My wife and I have both said that exact thing verbatim at different times over the years. :)

[AlecBGreen]

55. me three

:)

"Otoh, nature never fails to blow me away (but in a good way). Never. I can't get enough. Even the tornadoes and massive flooding we've endured during the last two weeks were awe inspiring.

I could be a hermit as long as I had music and internet access."

[beam me up scottie]

63. At the rate we're destroying the planet, potential hermits like us better hurry up.

Space may be limited. :)

[AlecBGreen]

70. i hear you

If I am online and looking at Google earth or maps, I like to look all over the country and think "Where would be a good place to live?" It has to be relatively isolated, close to fresh water, semi-mountainous, forested, and not in between any major cities. Top picks are eastern Kentucky, Arkansas/Missouri border, or northern PA. Michigan is also near the top of the list but its a little flat for my tastes. Good soil though and lots of wilderness.

The west would be good too (Idaho, MT, etc) but Im not familiar with it.

Not to go off on a apocalyptic tangent but both my wife and I think the **** is going to hit the fan in our lifetimes and it would be good to be prepared. From what little I know of you BMUS by reading your posts, I think yall would get a long well. She doesnt take crap from anybody ;)

[beam me up scottie]

73. With ya, but I'd steer clear of the west, lots of rw christian militias already there.

I'd head for upstate New York or northern New England myself.

And I'd love to have a beer someday with you and your wife, ABG. I think we have much in common.
:toast:

[JNelson6563]

76. Michigan flat?

Come north my friend, come north. Rolling green hills everywhere. Nothing like the much yuckier southern part of the state. Come on up!

Julie

[AlecBGreen]

81. Ive considered it

my moms family is in East Grand Rapids and we used to go up there all the time as kids. 12 hours in a station wagon was NO fun (my dad insisted we learn bird calls by tape....seriously) and my time there wasnt much better. As an adult, I recently went back for the first time in many years and I was blown away. We kayaked down a great river, the trees were monstrous, land was reasonably priced, the farmers markets were spectacular. The beaches are close, great fish and local beer, the list goes on an on. If I could find a teaching position up there in a few years we might just come on up ;)

My wife isnt much for cold weather though. She grew up in southern China so the Michigan winters might be a hard sell!

[DeSwiss]

64. Same here.

[dmallind]

54. ...and there's no connection between Romeo and Juliet and West Side Story either

Because after all West Side Story has songs and is set in a completely different country.....

[struggle4progress]

62. You don't seem to be very good at this. If you read the post you responded to, you would

see that I sought evidence for the OP's claim that Apollo, Mithra, and Osiris were all born in mangers. Instead of addressing that question, you respond with some sarcasm, which I suppose might be read as suggesting something about your views about religious syncretism -- but since you don't actually make whatever point you want to make directly and cleanly, there is really nowhere to go from your comment

If you have something precise to say, you should have the intellectual courage to say it precisely. Then you might be right or wrong in various ways, and someone might actually learn something from the conversation. If, instead, you leave it to me to attempt to decipher vague sarcastic remarks, then I must suspect you are intellectually lazy and cowardly, because you leave to me the work you yourself ought to do to work out what you want to say and because you thus carve out nothing but cheap wiggle room for yourself

I suppose I could say that syncretism has long been well-established or that I find exact and accurate studies of syncretism interesting -- but based on your response I do not think you much care about exact and accurate studies of syncretism

[dmallind]

69. No - you sought differing minutiae to distract from obvious parallels

The irony of your telling me to speak precisely is overwhelming, since your fixation on mangers is an obvious attempt to discredit the parallels between the Christ myth and other hero savior myths.

[conscious evolution]

127. Go ask a Mason

Especially one who has advanced beyond the 32nd Degree.
They have known this for eons.
Good luck getting an answer though.Most likely they will try to change the subject while holding their hands up as if lifting a heavy load.

[DeSwiss]

36. K&R

"Hercules was a sun-god. Jonah the same, rescued from the fiends of Night and carried by a fish through the under world. Samson was a sun-god. His strength was in his hair - in his beams. He was shorn of his strength by Delilah, the shadow - the darkness. So. Osiris, Bacchus, Mithra, Hermes, Buddha, Quetzalcoatl, Prometheus, Zoroaster, Perseus, Codom Lao-tsze Fo-hi, Horus and Rameses were all sun-gods. All of these gods had gods for fathers and all their mothers were virgins."

"We have already compared the benefits of theology and science. When the theologian governed the world, it was covered with huts and hovels for the many, palaces and cathedrals for the few. To nearly all the children of men, reading and writing were unknown arts. The poor were clad in rags and skins -- they devoured crusts, and gnawed bones. The day of Science dawned, and the luxuries of a century ago are the necessities of to-day. Men in the middle ranks of life have more of the conveniences and elegancies than the princes and kings of the theological times. But above and over all this, is the development of mind. There is more of value in the brain of an average man of to-day -- of a master-mechanic, of a chemist, of a naturalist, of an inventor, than there was in the brain of the world four hundred years ago.

These blessings did not fall from the skies. These benefits did not drop from the outstretched hands of priests. They were not found in cathedrals or behind altars -- neither were they searched for with holy candles. They were not discovered by the closed eyes of prayer, nor did they come in answer to superstitious supplication. They are the children of freedom, the gifts of reason, observation and experience -- and for them all, man is indebted to man."

"It is contended by many that ours is a Christian government, founded upon the Bible, and that all who look upon the book as false or foolish are destroying the foundation of our country. The truth is, our government is not founded upon the rights of gods, but upon the rights of men. Our Constitution was framed, not to declare and uphold the deity of Christ, but the sacredness of humanity. Ours is the first government made by the people and for the people. It is the only nation with which the gods have had nothing to do. And yet there are some judges dishonest and cowardly enough to solemnly decide that this is a Christian country, and that our free institutions are based upon the infamous laws of Jehovah."


~ Robert Green Ingersoll

- Congratulations on being able to break-away from the madness of the Jesus Death Cult......

[Odin2005]

40. Great rant!

:yourock:

[RagAss]

50. Good post.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

56. Ingersoll was a very cool guy.

I also told this Fox - bot:

Do you know what bomb throwing Socialist said this: Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital would have no value without the application of labor to make it into saleable goods." ?


Abraham Lincoln.

[DeSwiss]

57. And here are a couple more of my favortie Lincoln quotes:

"The presidents of the north and south would surely unite to exterminate the priests and the Jesuits, if they could learn how the priests, the monks and the nuns, who daily land on our shores under the pretext of preaching religion...are nothing but emissaries of the pope, of Napoleon III, and other despots of Europe, to undermine our institutions, alienate the hearts of our people from our constitution, and our laws, destroy our schools and prepare a reign of anarchy here as they have done in Ireland, in Mexico, in Spain and wherever people want to be free." ~ Abraham Lincoln

"I now have two great enemies, the southern army in front of me and the financial institutions in the rear. Of the two, the one in my rear is the greatest foe. The Government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity. Democracy will rise superior to the money power." ~ Abraham Lincoln

- Ain't it funny how you never hear Republicans saying any of this stuff, now?

[darkstar3]

72. After reading this OP and your contributions, I'd suggest you take a step back

The words that come to mind more and more as I read what you're writing are "white privilege" and "white messiah".

Your incredibly strong reaction to the fact that you were unable to find work suggests that somewhere deep down you feel entitled to that gainful employment. That sounds a lot like privilege to me. As for a white person approaching a black church unsolicited and suggesting that they can somehow help, that screams "white messiah." I'm not surprised they turned you down. I wouldn't be surprised if they had told you in no uncertain terms that you were unwelcome at their place of worship in the future.

Even as an atheist who would like to agree with you about the evils of Christianity, these words...

Now I am totally against Christianity because they refused to help. I decided that if they were people of God, these are several thousand people, and nobody would help us find jobs, I decided that God wanted us to starve.

sound downright petulant to me.

It's time to re-evaluate how you see the world. Nowhere in our founding documents is it written that you have the right to a job, or to acceptance by a private group of people. You're just like the rest of us, and we are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

77. Thank you for calling me "CRAP". NOT.

I think people who have skills should be able to get jobs.

That of course was destroyed by the ruling class and their infinite greed.

I admire Barbara Jordan greatly and happen to be a third generation Democrat. My father was a union organizer who voted for Norman Thomas in 1932. It wasn't about white versus black, it was about Democratic values of working together.

Ya missed the point.


If you'd gotten to where I did, staring at knives and even attempted to use one on myself, and getting two weeks in the county funny farm where I found out how useless the doctors and the county medical system was, you might be kinda petulant too.

I think the word is "enraged".

[darkstar3]

79. Oh, I think I got the point rather thoroughly.

I can see clearly that you are pissed off. I can also see clearly WHY you are pissed off.

You're not special, and you have no right to be angry at the church for not wanting your DVD. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll be able to move on and continue looking for work elsewhere.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

80. I stopped looking for work years ago.

It was an enormously frustrating effort with NO reward.

They say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

Well, looking for a job, for many years, and not getting one is the same thing. Insanity.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

125. Anyone who makes a work of art about someone is "EXPLOITING" that person?

That's an interesting comment.

I did not know that biographers, movie makers, playwrights, composers, etc. are "exploiting" their subjects.

BTW, Barbara Jordan's sisters Rosemary and Bennie both approved of what we wanted to do. We discussed it with them.

[darkstar3]

126. Wrong spot, perhaps?

Where did I use the word "exploit"?

[AlecBGreen]

82. UN Declaration of Human Rights, Article 23

"(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment."

[darkstar3]

83. Did you read the rest of it?

# (2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
# (3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
# (4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Oh, I agree with the statements, but do we follow any of them, especially 2 and 4? Furthermore, I mentioned our country's founding documents, not the UN charter.

[AlecBGreen]

84. no we definitely dont follow it

yeah, i read all of it while I was there. I almost laughed out loud when I thought of the reaction one of my teabag buddies would have reading some of that "socialist hogwash" the UN deems important. A right to paid time off?! His head would explode!

[humblebum]

89. Nice Rant. But I can guarantee most Christians couldn't

care less what you think, since an ever-increasing number are getting tired of the constant string of anti-Christian movies, books, and lectures put out by "new" atheists.

[darkstar3]

90. Constant string of anti-christian media

put out specifically by "new" atheists?

I call bullshit.

Enlighten me and the rest of us. Give us a list of these anti-christian media that have been constantly put out by "new" atheists.

There is a large difference between "constant string" and "a few voices tired of being silent."

[Manifestor_of_Light]

92. I agree with you. I call Bullshit.

Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins, mostly.

Christopher Hitchens gets big brownie points from me for exposing the fraud that is the Mother Teresa Empire. No health care, no actual hospital, no relief of suffering, just collecting millions of dollars from donors who didn't know any better.

[humblebum]

93. It's like I said, most of us don't even care anymore. Men

like Hitchens have identified themselves by their words. A bloviating bolshevik such as Hitchens shouldn't even be taken seriously.

[darkstar3]

94. I'm still waiting for that list. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

99. Made it to Russia in three posts.

Who won this week's poll?

[darkstar3]

101. Not me,

I usually take the '1 post' slot. It pays the least, but it's hit most frequently. ;)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

95. Oh, because he tells the truth?

I see.

Kill the messenger, ignore the message.

Would you count Bill Maher's movie Religulous in that? He's asking honest questions about religion in that movie.

[humblebum]

96. I would say that he attempts to tell his version of the truth. You must

remember that some of the man's stated heroes are also among the greatest oppressors of free-thought the world has ever known. Free thought as defined by Marx and Lenin and Trotsky was free thought within very severe limitations. When Hitchens advocates "ridicule, hatred, and contempt" to be shown toward religion, then I would say the man is attempting to establish his perameters of "free thought". Mahre is nothing but a 'Hitchensbot', but with far less intelligence.

[beam me up scottie]

98. How is showing "ridicule, hatred, and contempt" toward religion limiting free thought?

You're quite the hypocrite, btw, you do nothing but hate on atheists in this forum - and not atheism in general, just the people who lack belief in deities and are uppity enough to say so.

[humblebum]

102. I think you only need to take a look at the topical list of this forum

to see which way sentiments flow. Please produce a statement where I say I hate atheists. Debate is hardly a show of hatred.

[beam me up scottie]

103. The fact that you post almost exclusively in this forum and negatively about atheists speaks volumes

One only needs to do a search to see which way your sentiments flow.

[humblebum]

104. My posts are certainly not limited to this forum and you are dodging the question.

You accused me of expressing hatred for atheists. So far, you have only shown that I debate from a different perspective from many on this forum.

[beam me up scottie]

105. More hypocrisy. Still waiting for you to answer DS3's question and mine.

You've done the usual "anti-christian", "new atheist blah blah blah", "MARX!STALIN!LENIN!TROTSKY!" square dance and in case you haven't noticed, we're still not impressed.

Pony up.

[humblebum]

107. You're are still dodging the question and I couldn't care less about impressing you.

Whatever else you're talking about I have no idea.

[darkstar3]

108. You've been schooled here,

and the sad thing is you can't even see it. "I don't care what you think" is a lame out when you're posting on a discussion board.

[beam me up scottie]

109. Answer our questions, we asked first. Or is your three trick pony dead?

Stop obfuscating and answer our questions:

1) Post the list that qualifies as a constant stream of anti-Christian media from "new atheists"

and

2) Explain how showing "ridicule, hatred, and contempt" toward religion limits free thought

[humblebum]

111. In your opening post to me you made a serious accusation that have have yet to answer. As for

your question about a list - if I need to detail every anti-christian film advertised on DU over the past few years, or the number of books that have been written or the number of public appearances thtat have been recorded - if you have forgotten all of this then certainly you are not capable of a reasonable debate. The term "new atheists" is commonly used. You know that. And it generally is used in reference to Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, Maher and those who incorporate their methods and reasoning into their dealings with religion and the religious.
As far as "ridicule hatred and contempt" go - those are actual words out of Hitchens' mouth. Since he has made it a point to declare himself a Marxist, a Leninist, and a Trotskyite - I think it is safe to conclude where his orientation lies. Now, do I have to tell you about those people's attitude towards religion and what became of many who expressed thoughts or ideas contrary to the established and enforced doctrine of Scientific Atheism.
Are all atheists like that? No. There are many very outstanding and moral atheists. Are atheism and communism the same? Absolutely not. Are all Communists atheists? Officially, yes. Are all Leninists, Marxists, and Trotskyites atheists? Yes, officially.

[Goblinmonger]

112. In your little slippery slope attempt

to connect "ridicule, hatred, and contempt" to limiting free thought, you made a lot of silly small fallacious leaps, but you made one huge glaring one: that Hitchens actually has the power to enforce his thoughts like they did in Stalinist USSR. He doesn't. Slippery slope ends (well actually well before this, but certainly glaringly) here.

[humblebum]

113. It has nothing to do with whatever power he may have. It has everything to

do with what influence he might have. And I certainly never made any reference to "Stalinist USSR". The positions of Lenin, Trotsky, and Marx about religion are quite verifiable. And I am am still waiting for you to back up your accusation of hate.

[Goblinmonger]

114. First of all, as much as I love her and strive to be like her, I'm not BMUS

so the accusation of hate discussion you are having is with others (she has chthula kitty in her sig and I have the dancing goblin).

OK, fine, you didn't mention Stalinist, but same argument applies. Comparing Hitchens to them supposes that he has some power. I could have the same attitudes as Hitler toward the Jews--does that mean I could kill 6 million of them? What influence does Hitches have to translate his contempt of religion into cutting off free thought (see, I didn't lose site of your original claim quite yet, hard as you might try)?

[humblebum]

115. Sorry.

[Goblinmonger]

116. No biggy

I jumped in in the middle of a back and forth. Just didn't want my lack of addressing that reflect badly on BMUS.

[humblebum]

117. This forum would be sorely lacking without BMUS' input. nt

[beam me up scottie]

119. Awww.

You're just saying that so I'll wear my Lt. Uhura uniform to our next meeting.

[Goblinmonger]

120. ....

[beam me up scottie]

118. You claimed ridicule, hatred and contempt of religion limits free speech and you can't back it up.

As usual.

You were also asked to provide proof of "the constant string of anti-Christian movies, books, and lectures put out by "new" atheists" and you failed to name even one specific example.

As usual.


As for my claim, obviously I am not allowed to link to previous posts, but a simple search of your name in this forum is all that is required to observe that almost every one of your posts are indeed bigoted toward atheists and atheism. I personally cannot remember a time when you commented on anything else in this forum.

In fact, your anti-atheist bigotry and constant attempts to link atheism and communism are so blatant and so obvious we don't even need to read your posts to know their content.

Your constant repetition of the meme that atheists and atheism are to blame for more murders than all religious wars combined has become your mantra for you seem to be oblivious to the fact that it is no more true today than it was the first time you posted it.

Your behaviour is so offensive and so predictable one would think anti-atheism has become your religion of choice and DU your temple.



The FSM forgives you, go in pieces, my child.







oops, just re-read the previous posts and it appears that I inferred you posted almost exclusively in THIS forum, that wasn't my intention. Should have cleared that up right away, sorry.

[humblebum]

121. You are doing it again.

The "ridicule hatred and contempt" is an attempt to shame a religious person into silence. you are gasping.

[beam me up scottie]

122. Bullshit. It's one person's opinion of religion and nothing more.

DUers regularly and joyfully express "ridicule, hatred and contempt" about all kinds of religious fundamentalism. Are we all guilty of limiting free speech?

You're just like Hitchens, you constantly show "ridicule, hatred and contempt" for atheism.

Hypocrite.

[humblebum]

123. Hitchens will be very distraught to find out that the thousands

who come to listen to him speak don't really take him seriously.

[beam me up scottie]

124. Yeah, all those jack booted atheist thugs will have to find someone else to lead their crusade.

Maybe PZ Myers will step up.

I mean, just look at the guy, he's the obvious successor, a natural born Marxist dictator and oppressor of those who express
"thoughts or ideas contrary to the established and enforced doctrine of Scientific Atheism":



:rofl:

[darkstar3]

106. A single point perspective

centered squarely on Communist Russia and whatever way you can tie it to atheism today. Sounds pretty hateful to me.

It would be like me bringing up the fact that the Nazis were Catholic in EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD.

[darkstar3]

100. We now have 2 writers mentioned,

Maher and Hitchens, but neither by you. I'll throw in Dawkins, since everyone here already knows that name. Now where's the list that qualifies as a constant stream of anti-Christian media from "new atheists"? Can you even name a dozen "new atheists"?

[saltpoint]

97. If God and Jesus were really humane entities they would not allow

"Frosty the Snowman" to be played in an almost endless loop every time I walk into a drugstore or grocery store for a month and a half between Thanksgiving and late December.

I think once annually is PLENTY to play that song.

I could also do without "Jingle Bell Rock."

Thank you.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

128. I'm still wearing my blue medicine buddha necklace.

And my OM necklace and my Chai necklace (symbols of the three religions that I DO respect).

Redneckboy has done NOTHING to slow me down. He just drove my BP up for about three days and a couple of sleepless nights.