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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:21 PM
Original message
Pseduo-science isn't enough...now we have pseudo-math!
Edited on Tue Aug-09-05 05:23 PM by pabsungenis
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/package.jsp?name=fte/resurrection/resurrection

Oxford University professor Richard Swinburne...has created a formula that he says shows a 97 percent certainty that Jesus Christ was resurrected by God the Father, report The Age and Catholic News.

Now, anyone who knows mathematics, statistics, and probability better than I do, please join in the argument, but let me see if I can knock his logic down quickly:


The probably of God's existence is one in two. That is, God either exists or doesn't.

I choose to grant him this one, just for argument's sake, and to avoid having to work in the thousands of factors that would be raised by an attempt to prove the existence of God (something no philosopher has ever done).

The probability that God became incarnate, that is embodied in human form, is also one in two.

Again, I'll grant him this one. Since the odds of God existing are 1 in 2, and the odds of him becoming incarnate are also 1 in 2, then the odds of him existing AND becoming incarnate are 1 in 4.

The chance of Christ's resurrection not being reported by the gospels has a probability of one in 10.

Just for fun, let's grant him a 100% chance of God Incarnate rising from the dead. The odds of him rising, then, are still 1 in 4.

Since there is now a 9 out of 10 chance factored into this 1 in 4, that makes the odds 9 out of 40.

Considering all these factors together, there is a one in 1,000 chance that the resurrection is not true.

Actually, if we grant him every one of his arguments raised above, there is only a 22.5% chance of the Resurrection happening.

Hardly a certainty, and definitely not a 1 in 1,000 chance.

I can't believe any half-intelligent editor would regurgitate that crap without even thinking about it. Unless they were trying to forward their Intelligent Design arguments with Unintelligent Algebra.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Fuzzy logic...
Fuzzy thinking...
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mark11727 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. 2 + 2 = 5. Get with the program, you sinner.
:eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:
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achtung_circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Puh-leez.
That there are 2 possible outcomes at a decision point does not imply that the probability is equal.

Will achtung_circus become a rock star?
50% probability???
Not if you've heard me sing.

The probability that the universe was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, 50%, (s)he either did or (s)he didn't.
<http://www.venganza.org/>
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Bingo.
He's flawed from the beginning. Either/or doesn't equate to 50% probability.
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achtung_circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. How does this affect the Flying Spaghetti Monster? nt
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I'm hoping it doesn't.........
I'm a firm believer of the FSM and ANY intrusion into my personal belief system will be met with swift and violent retribution from His Macaroniness. :nuke: ALL HAIL THE FSM!
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achtung_circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Touched by his Noodly Appendage. nt
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Exactly.
But my point is even if we DID give him the best possible outcome for his arguments, it's still nowhere near the certainty he says.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. There is a 25% chance our minds are controlled by invisible flying llamas
1) There are either invisible flying llamas among us, or not. That's a 1 in 2 chance.

2) Invisible flying llamas can either control our thoughts or not. That's another 1 in 2 chance.

There is a 1 in 4 chance that both are true, hence it is 25% likely that our minds are controlled by invisible flying llamas.

Next, I will prove conclusively that I am a jelly donut....
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. Bingo.
Perfect example of why this "analysis" is insultingly stupid.
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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. From your lips to God's ass.
The key to understanding this formula is to calculate, with precision, what is the square root of bullshit

You see, if you take that number, let us call it Q, it follows that SWINBURNE = Q x (Q +/- 1/infinitysquared)
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NorCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. Right off the bat
the probability that God exists is not 0.5, it is either 1.0 or 0.0, depending upon your perspective. I say it's 0.0, therefore I have mathematically proven that God does not exist!

Anything that starts with that can't possibly be mathematically rigorous!
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. It's "0.97 chance of the ressurrection if the Gospels don't purposely lie"
A review of Swinburne's Book

Note:

The most problematical assertion in Chapter 1 is the following: ‘It is a further fundamental epistemological principle additional to the principle that other things being equal we should trust our memories, that we should believe what others tell us that they have done or perceived—in the absence of counter-evidence. I call this the principle of testimony. It must be extended so as to require us to believe that—in the absence of counter-evidence—when someone tell us that so-and-so is the case…they have perceived or received testimony from others that it is the case. Without this principle we would have very little knowledge of the world.’ (p. 13)


which implies that Swinburne' calculations have to take everyone at their word.

Also note this:

Assigning probabilities to the factors of equation 4′ is done by building up from other factors: ‘Let us represent by t theism, the claim that there is a God of the traditional kind. P(t/k) is the probability that there is such a God on the evidence of natural theology. I suggested in Chapter 1 that we give this the modest value 1∕2.’ (p. 211) Swinburne backs up this value only in the last paragraph of Chapter 1: ‘This evidence, the evidence of natural theology, provides general background evidence crucially relevant to our topic. I have argued elsewhere the case for this evidence giving substantial probability to the existence of God. (See esp. my The Existence of God and the shorter Is there a God? (Oxford University Press, 1996)). I cannot, for reasons of space, argue that case again here. But to get my argument going here, I will make only the moderate assumption that the evidence…makes it as probable as not that there is a God…’ (p. 30) I’ll return to more in Chapter 1, Principles for Weighing Evidence, after another illustration of assigning probabilities.


So, the first "one in two chance" is Swinburne's subjective claim that, given what he sees as the evidence from what we see in the world, then it is a 0.5 probability that it is a theistic god. Also, we see that Swinburne's equation is

P(h/e&k) = P(e/h&k)P(h/k)∕P(e/k)

and the meanings he assigns to the letters are:

Specifying the factors in equation 4′, Swinburne states, ‘Let k now be…the evidence of natural theology (including the sinning and suffering of humans). Let e be the detailed historical evidence, consisting of a conjunction of three pieces of evidence (e1 &e2 &e3 ). e1 is the evidence of the life of Jesus set out in Part II. e2 is the detailed historical evidence relating to the Resurrection set out in Part III. e3 is the evidence (summarized in Chapter 3) that neither the prior nor the posterior requirements for God being incarnate were satisfied in any prophet in human history in any way comparable with the way in which they were satisfied in Jesus.’ (p. 210) ‘Let h1 be the hypothesis that God became incarnate in Jesus, and h2 the hypothesis that Jesus rose from the dead. h is the conjunction (h1 &h2 ). Now at the end of the day this book is interested in P(h∕e&k)—the probability that Jesus was God Incarnate who rose from the dead (h), on the evidence both of natural theology (k) and of the detailed history of Jesus and of other human prophets (e).’ (p. 211)


So, Swinburne is saying we have historical evidence, that we should trust unless there's a good reason not to. I'd call that naive and gullible, myself, unless he factors in the chances of someone making up stories for the sake of gaining power. It's this that gets him the 0.97 figure - he divides another probability by "the chance that we get the 'historical evidence', just given the state of our world". He thinks there's only 1 in 1000 probability that people would make shit up to found a religion. :eyes: I'd be interested if he has applied his probabilities to other, mutually exclusive religions, and if he think very unlikely that someone would make stuff up in them either.
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Beaver Tail Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. It works on the basis that God Exists
Edited on Tue Aug-09-05 06:04 PM by Beaver Tail
Before you can even PROVE that Jesus was resurrected you MUST prove God exists. He has not done that and it is a critical part of the equation.

All he says is "The probably of God's existence is one in two. That is, God either exists or doesn't". That is not proof, it's an assumption.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
13. Pseudo-math was in place in 1999
when people with intelligence realized that George W. Bush's tax plans didn't add up . . .

But then the Pseudo-Journalists were handed their scripts and presented the Pseudo-News . . .
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
14. math isn't being taught in the US at all, to be honest
Grade school arithmetic is prehistoric. High school algebra (which is not what is called algebra in math) in its modern incarnation is 500 years old, though its precursors are likewise prehistoric. Trigonometry dates to antiquity.

That's the end of what most American people learn, and in fact, most never get beyond grade school arithmetic. Integrodifferential calculus of the form high school students study was entirely known to the originators of the integral and differential calculi (Newton & Leibniz) 300 years ago, and those same originators did much, much more than HS calculus courses ever cover (differential equations, calculus of variations, etc.).

It is entirely descriptive to say that the level of general math knowledge in the US is stone age.

From what I see of foreign students, it looks like the standard is more intensive skill-building in high school algebra and high school calculus in most cases. Hungary in particular seems to be particularly advanced. In Hungary, it appears that high school students take on real analysis (theoretical underpinnings of calculus) and asymptotic analysis (slightly advanced calculus-related subject), and possibly more (probably complex analysis). In the US, these things are not seen except at the university level, and in ways that are arguably less intensive (for instance, US grad students I knew were stumped badly by several problems posed in a Hungarian high school student's homework). There are likely other countries with similarly higher levels of math education.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
17. is this a hoax?
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 03:29 PM by enki23
.

what is the probability of such an staggeringly nonsensical probability... er.... "analysis" finding an incomprehensibly stupid reporter, AND a fantastically incompetent editor, by pure chance?

ok, so i'll grant a bit of selection bias regarding incompetent editors and stupid reporters. and i suppose i'd further have to admit that these particularly bad reporter-editor combinations would naturally gravitate toward nonsensical stories...

apparently, the probability of this particular incident happening is 1.0. that means it's at least somewhat likely to have happened. furthermore, it means it has a 137.5% chance of occurring again within the next 48 hours, +/- 23.5%.
note: the statistical power was 42. the rate constant was equal to the speed of light, in M/s, at STP. with 30% chance of showers.

who'da thunk it?
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