My late Dad, the atheist.

[rogerashton]

Yes, he has been gone for, let's see, nearly six years, and yes, I still miss him. Always will.

But I think of him when fideists (advocates of faith in "God") claim, as they usually do, that atheists must be bad, immoral people, since they have no fear of an avenging God to keep them moral, or (as in another thread) are unfeeling and cruel and dead to wonder, or want to impose their atheism on others. Dad is my counterexample to these falsehoods.

Pop was as morally upright as any Christian or Jew I know personally. (Mother Theresa may well have been moreso). In fact, his atheism was based on a felt moral imperative. He felt a moral duty to believe what his reason led him to believe is true, and so for him it would have been immoral to believe in God or an afterlife -- and, as he got older, the afterlife part tempted him.

Now, my Pop was not a proseltizing atheist. He didn't want other people to become atheists, because he thought (along with those fideists, I suppose) that most people are indeed too morally weak to act morally without fearing some supernatural power. He felt (with some of the founding fathers) that religion, while not true, was good for society. But he also felt a moral conflict -- unlike some of the founding fathers -- that he himself could not practice religion against his own reason.

According to the old country song, there's a whole lot of Sunday Christians --people who profess Christianity for the social benefits of doing so, but do not practice it. There are no Sunday Atheists (or whatever the appropriate day may be) because there are no social benefits of being an atheist. Just the contrary. Atheist bashing is still accepted by the followers of that Prophet who instructed his followers to love their neighbor as themselves. I don't say all atheists are like my father. In fact, very few people of any kind are as intelligent and strong as Dad was! But why would one be an atheist, if not out of honest opinion and a moral urge not to base one's opinions dishonestly on social norms?

There were a couple of things Pop and I disagreed on. I don't consider myself an atheist (although most fideists probably would) and I don't agree that people in general are very morally weak nor that those who are are made better, rather than worse, by religion. But Pop and I could always talk about that, because we had a common commitment to reason. One of many reasons why I still miss him. It's that commitment that is much too uncommon in this world.

[Racenut20]

1. You just basically described my father...RIP

[Dhalgren]

2. Thank you for sharing this.

I greatly admire your dad - through you.

[tg]

4. If there is no God, all we have is each other. n/t

[sybylla]

3. What a wonderful man he must have been

I thank you for sharing this. It makes me wish I had someone like him to guide me along my own atheist path, to show me how to travel along it with such class and decency, to live in a world seemingly filled with people who judge you for your beliefs.

[China_cat]

5. Next time someone tells you atheists want to impose

atheism on everybody else, ask them when was the last time an atheist came to their door and insisted that they stop believing.

[shrike]

7. Actually, one did

Well, not to my door. But a former co-worker of mine did try to "convert" me, or at least show me the error of my ways.

Nowadays I look back at it and smile. I honestly think he was doing a pre-emptive strike -- so many Christians had tried to convert him, I figure, that he was trying to head me off at the pass.

Once he got it through his head that I had no interest in converting him (or anyone else) we got along fine.

[China_cat]

8. That is the very first time I have ever heard of that

happening. In one hell of a lot of years.

[shrike]

9. Which is probably why I remember it so well

It was, indeed, very odd. As I said, I think this guy had had some very bad experiences with believers in the past and figured he'd give me a "taste of my own medicine." A pre-emptive strike, if you will.

The turning point came during the holidays, when we were all playing Secret Santa for each other. (He had no problem celebrating Christmas; he just said he thought of it as wintertime festivities, which I thought was nice of him.) Another co-worker was his Secret Santa. She came to me and asked for gift suggestions, since my desk was right next to his. I told her he had just begun to engage in a new hobby, one he was very excited about. She said, "I just saw a book on that very subject."

Well, when gift exchange time came, this co-worker handed him the package and said that I had helped her pick it out. He scowled and said, "Then it must be something religious." He then opened it up and was completely thrilled with the gift. It was just what he wanted, he said.

The next day, he asked if he could buy me lunch. We talked about everything under the sun BUT religion, which is the way I like it; other people's spiritual beliefs, or lack of them, are none of my business, as I see it. We got to be pretty good friends after that. One of the more intelligent people I've worked with and a pretty cool guy once you got to know him.

[China_cat]

10. See, that's the thing most religious people

don't even want to see about non-believers (or will even deny exists)...that we don't care what you believe. Just don't try to drag us into it with you by passing laws based on your religion.

[beam me up scottie]

6. So sorry for your loss.

My dad too is an atheist and he has always been my moral compass.
I doubt I will ever meet anyone as intelligent and compassionate as he is.

When I hear the morality of atheists questioned, I think of my dad and I get angry.

Why is it perfectly acceptable to do this to one group of people when it would be considered intolerance if it was directed at another minority?

[struggle4progress]

11. "Only an atheist can be a good Christian" -- Ernst Bloch

[wurzel]

12. I would have liked to have asked him how he explained beauty.

It is the one thing that keeps me agnostic. There is no rational, natural, or evolutionary explanation for why the Universe is so beautiful.

[beam me up scottie]

13. What does being religious or not have to do with explaining beauty?

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

[wurzel]

14. To be an atheist you have to be a materialist.

Materialism cannot explain beauty. So you have to look for a non material explanation. That means a "spiritual" or trancendental explanation. This introduces "religion". The problem is where do you go from there?

[beam me up scottie]

15. Actually, as an atheist, I don't need to question

the beauty of the natural world.
I don't know any atheist that does.

Who told you this?

[wurzel]

16. It is not a matter of "questioning", it is a matter of "explaining".

I don't need anyone to tell me this. This is no small problem. Beauty is a necessity for a human life. We cannot live as human beings without it. Where does the idea of beauty come from, and why is it so essential? This was largely ignored by Communist Russia and was a huge factor in its' failure. Incidently we have similar problems here with American Capitalism which is also materialistic and has no more concern for beauty than Russian Communism did.

You may recall in Orwell's 1984 that the novel turns on the exchange about beauty between Smith and the antique shop keeper. Perhaps that explains my problem better than I can.

[beam me up scottie]

17. Sorry, not true.

None of it.

Where do you get your misconceptions about atheists, or for that matter, humans?

[wurzel]

18. Beam me up!

[onager]

20. I must be a bad atheist too...

I constantly muse on the beauty and wonder of the Universe. But as a famous wiseass smarter than I once said: we atheists appreciate the mystery and beauty, we just don't go round making up fairy tales about how it all originated.

Hmm. This thought just crossed my alleged mind. The world has some awesome secrets to be unlocked, but as far as I know, it only gives up those secrets to people who are willing to do the hard work. That would be scientists, whether they are biologists, naturalists, astronomers, physicists, mathematicians, etc.

I know of no useful natural secrets which have been unlocked by the psychics, the spoon-benders, the navel-gazers with their Magic Crystal Pyramids or the other shysters who are always gabbling on and on about the Awesome Mystical Powers lurking out there Somewhere in the Universe.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. I can't see your argument at all

To use the cliche, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Since we disagree on what is beautiful, it seems strange to say religion is required to explain it.

I also disagree that the Soviet Union ignored beauty (it had a lot of state-sponsored arts, such as ballet), and to say it was a huge factor in its failure seems ridiculous. Give some example, for goodness' sake. I quite honestly can't fathom what you're saying here.

Your reference to 1984 seems pretty opaque too. The nearest that I can find is:

"That’s coral, that is," said the old man. "It must have come from the Indian Ocean. They used to kind of embed it in the glass. That wasn't made less than a hundred years ago. More, by the look of it."

"It's a beautiful thing," said Winston.

"It is a beautiful thing," said the other appreciatively. "But there's not many that'd say so nowadays."

Winston immediately paid over the four dollars and slid the coveted thing into his pocket. What appealed to him about it was not so much its beauty as the air it seemed to possess of belonging to an age quite different from the present one. The soft, rain-watery glass was not like any glass that he had ever seen. The thing was doubly attractive because of its apparent uselessness, though he could guess that it must once have been intended as a paperweight. It was very heavy in his pocket, but fortunately it did not make much of a bulge. It was a queer thing, even a compromising thing, for a Party member to have in his possession. Anything old, and for that matter anything beautiful, was always vaguely suspect.

http://www.orwelltoday.com/renting.shtml

and in no way can I either say that the novel turns on that point, nor is it remotely explanatory of your point. Perhaps you had another passage in mind? In which case, a reference to it would help.

If you want a 'materialistic' (in the sense of non-supernatural) explanation of the concept of 'beauty', try this: Beauty is a sense of well-being experienced by someone when they see part of a healthy environment with which they are familiar and suited, or heathly and happy people. This reinforces behaviour in which we seek out these suitable environments, and so increases our chances of breeding successfully.

[shrike]

19. My dad was Catholic and so am I

He was a bit obnoxious about religion at times (so I try not to be), but when the chips were down he knew how to treat his fellow man. He's been gone four years and I miss him every day. So I know how you feel. I'd give anything to talk to him one more time.

[NMMNG]

21. What a wonderful story, thank you for sharing

It so effectively dispells myths and lies bare truths people would rather leave hidden.