I need some input.

[rug]

My son was given, in homeroom, a flyer inviting students to come to the Milford Bible Church tomorrow night after the football game for "fun", "prizes", "games" until midnight. This was handed out to all the students in the high school by the teachers during homeroom. It is a public school.

Also on the flyer, next to a picture of either Darth Vader or the Grim Reaper were the words "Ready or Not" next to the words "Answers about the Afterlife, a 4-part series" in smaller type. Apparently, around 11:30, after a few hours of games, one of the ministers delivers a 20 to 30 minute sermon/lecture to the teens and then they leave at midnight.

I know what my reaction is. I left voicemails with the district superintendent and the high school principal and I expect to hear from them tomorrow.

However, I do need some calm, rational input. I see some significant issues here. Before I go off half-cocked tomorrow, what do you think?

[Duer 157099]

1. I would be LIVID

My son is in high school also, and that would really, really, REALLY piss me off if his teacher was handing that invitation out.

Sorry, I can't be the calm voice of reason, lol.

[rug]

3. Well, just asking the question has restored some objectivity.

Thanks for your response.

[gateley]

2. Eek. I'm not the one to give calm, rational input. I'm interested to hear what

the superintendent and principal say. The principal must have been aware as all the homeroom teachers distributed them. I can just imagine what "Answers about the Afterlife" would be. :grr:

:hug:

[rug]

4. Oh, I know what the beliefs are.

http://www.milfordbiblechurch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=24

Frankly, I'm less pissed off at them than I am at the school. I expect they're going to spew some pablum about it's a recreational, not a religious, activity; it's a good way to channel the kids to a wholesome activity after the game instead of rioting, blah, blah, blah.

The flyer is not handed out by a few teachers in a few classes; it's school-wide and must have administration's approval.

[madmax]

17. I'm stunned. A public school involved in this? nt

[rug]

19. It is indeed.

http://dvsd.schoolwires.net/dvsd/site/default.asp

It also requires urine testing for a parking permit or any extracurricular activity, including chess.

So I'm not surprised this administration would even consider the impropriety of this.

[madmax]

20. My son and his wife would definately be pissed off

and concerned, just as you are.

[Ineeda]

5. only somewhat facetious question...

is there a mosque or synagogue in town that's going to get 'equal time' to indoctrinate the children? But seriously, I would be outraged. This has no place in a public school--ever. Secular discussions of the religious intolerance currently in the headlines could be appropriate, but on neutral ground only. Maybe a round table panel that included respectable people of various faiths, non-believers, and experts on the Constitution.

[rug]

8. No, it's a small rural county.

About 50,000 people in the entire county, county seat has 1,100 residents. About 10 churches and one synagogue in total. Heavily Republican.

There really is not a lot for teenagers to do so the church is providing a service of sorts. But . . .

why are they preaching at the end of it and why the fuck is the public school promoting it?

[Ineeda]

10. Then have the kids go, enjoy themselves with the fun part

and book outta there as soon as the proselytizing starts (like the hounds of hell were nipping at their heels!) But I'd still go ballistic on whomever gave the go-ahead on this.

[rug]

12. I'm leaning towards that.

But the school district still needs to provide some answers.

[Fumesucker]

6. You ought to crosspost to GD, it's a far more important topic than at least half of what's there..

This definitely strikes me as an important church/state separation issue.

You'll get a lot more input on GD, I really urge you to post there as well.

One question you could ask is whether they would also distribute a similar flyer from an Islamic Mosque, my guess is that question will flummox them big time.

[rug]

9. I thought of it but believe it or not, I think I'll get a more thoughtful focused answer here.

Maybe I'll follow up there once I talk to the district.

As to your question, I've dealt with the Superintendent in the past. She is a jaded, head-nodding bureaucrat who will answer "Of course!', knowing full well there's no mosque within 50 miles.

[Fumesucker]

13. Eh, tell them your neighbor's a Wiccan and would like to extend a similar invitation..

Adapt, improvise, overcome.. :)

I sure would like to see something in GD to dilute the concentrated idiocy that's been on there for the last couple of days, between the Kos Troll and the Koran burning there's precious little of any substance there right now.

[rug]

18. The Lounge is always grappling with the burning issues of the day.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x9491742

[JuniperLea]

7. Oh boy... this would set me off but good!

Please do follow up and let us know how this fine cake pans out!

Why are these kids being kept out so late? When my kids were in high school they had a 10pm curfew.

The school is way out of line here, imho. I'd raise hell. But I'd also go to this function to see wtf is up!

[rug]

11. It did. My son has been rolling his eyes at me all night.

All he wants to do is play basketball but he needs me to drive him there and back.

You asked two good questions. Indeed, why is the school advertising a function that will keep minors out past midnight? I suspect the local police are encouraging this because they're complaining about rowdy kids after the football game.

And, can parents go? I'll ask. Maybe it's an 18 and under only function.

[JuniperLea]

14. 18 and under only would REALLY make me suspicious...

but then, I'm a DUer... just call me Juniper Suspicious Lea!

:D

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. I expect the defense will be something like this:

- The flier is clearly marked who is sponsoring it and its content
- Other organizations are free to hold their own events and will be given equal distribution

I like the Wiccan suggestion up thread. Might try the same with a LGBTQ night

[rug]

16. Ok, that's one I'm ready for.

Thanks.

[Odin2005]

21. I would be in thier face screaming.

[rug]

23. I'm trying to avoid that. I probably won't.

[MineralMan]

22. Well, the school shouldn't be allowing that distribution.

What to do about it depends on how serious you want to be about raising the issue, I think. It's a good issue, and there are probably other parents who are angry about it, too, but figuring out which ones they are is likely to be problematic.

I think I'd make the complaint, see what the school offers as an explanation/excuse, then go from there. If they blow you off, then a cease and desist letter from an attorney should put an immediate stop to it. You could also contact the ACLU in your area and see what they think.

It's going to be tough for one parent to make a big deal of this, I expect. You'll probably need other parents or legal help to make something happen. Odds are that the school board in your district is complicit in this whole thing, so they're unlikely to be much help.

One step at a time. That's my suggestion.

[rug]

25. You're right. One step at a time is key.

The cast of characters here is pretty small.

I'm a lawyer and I've appeared before the School Board several times representing students facing expulsion. There are two judges in the county, either of whom is likely to hear any lawsuit filed. This past year, the wife of one of them organized a group of parents to complain about the new curriculum. Otherwise she is pretty conservative. The school attorney is also a part-time public defender whom I've worked with on a few cases.

I think this is part of the problem. Everything is so local - and so conservative - that is that there's a sense of consensus, that there's not even an overt question that distributing church youth leaflets in school is objectionable, let alone unlawful.

So, yes, one step at a time. Given the dynamics, I don't think I'll be blown off as another crank parent but then, no parent should. Let's see what their explanation is and take the next step from there.

[MineralMan]

36. Sounds like you're well equipped for the fight.

Good luck with it. You're on the correct side, so you should prevail.

[jgraz]

24. Send the flyer to the Freedom From Religion Foundation and the ACLU.

http://www.ffrf.org

http://www.aclu.org

[rug]

26. Good suggestion!

I'll figure out how to scan it a send them an email. At the very least, they can provide solid information. Thanks.

[struggle4progress]

27. I spent most of my student years objecting to this stuff in the public schools

As a student, I was very bad at winning such fights

Many years later, I was advised that it's easier to start nice and turn nasty than to start nasty and try to turn nice: I think that's generally good advice, though I'll add that a former middle school once gave me precisely the opposite advice, just in case I ever needed to teach middle school classes

I might try to make sure I had my facts right. Then I might point out sweetly that there has always been some diversity of religious opinion in town, that not all children were being raised in traditions of Milford Bible Church, and that this seems insensitive to children from other religious beliefs. Ask for a copy of their policy on this

If push really comes to shove, it might be fun to get on the phone and encourage absolutely every group in sight to ask their handouts to be distributed: I'd bet a number of the kids could be very interested in a Rastafarian game night and a lecture on sacramental herbs

[rug]

28. Hmmm, there's a Buddhist temple over the river in New York about 25 miles from here.

And one of my son's friends said he's become a Buddhist...

the germ of a plan.

[struggle4progress]

29. Or maybe you could just get a bunch of troublemakers ordained by the Universal Life Church:

... simply complete the form provided, and in most cases, you will receive an email within 72 hours confirming that you have been ordained. It's that easy ... Become a minister today, it is always free of charge. You do not have to purchase anything from ULC to be an online ordained minister ... http://www.themonastery.org/

Another idea: the school might be very excited about advertising an event with a speaker from the Free Marijuana Church of Honolulu

[rug]

34. Oooh, I could ask them to speak on the school's zero tolerance policy.

[cleanhippie]

30. Be ANGRY! BE VERY, VERY ANGRY!

You should demand to know who authorized this and why. This is highly unconstituional.

[rug]

33. Oh, I'm there already. Now I want to effectively change this.

[cleanhippie]

39. Then get the answers you seek and bring in the FFRF and the ACLU.

[trotsky]

31. What are you, some kind of atheist who wants to silence the religious?

How terrible!

[rug]

32. No, I'm a theist who wants to stop the government from promoting religion.

I doubt we disagree.

[trotsky]

38. Oh we probably don't disagree.

However I think it's funny that an atheist started a thread much like this a while back and I remember a lot more calls to just "ignore it" and not rock the boat. Double standards are always entertaining.

[cleanhippie]

40. The same people said to "ignore it"?

In THIS forum? Come on, really?

[trotsky]

42. Oh I don't know if it was the exact same people...

and I wish I could remember more details of the thread, but yeah, I remember some dust-up in the thread after someone said the school was being reasonable and the atheist parent was not.

[cleanhippie]

44. Okay.

But I would like to see that myself. Sure, there are ALWAYS a few that cannot see reason, but in THIS forum, I find it difficult to accept many favored that position.

[jeepnstein]

35. I would suggest...

sitting down with your son and telling him why you don't want him to attend this event.

As long as the school isn't requiring attendance at the event I don't see the harm. Discuss your objections to the Christian faith, or that particular church, with your son and then get on with life.

[Ineeda]

37. That's not the point

The point is that the school is doing something illegal/unconstitutional.

[cleanhippie]

41. It sad that you "don't see the harm", because thats EXACTLY what this causes.

It teaches kids to be sneaky and underhanded in an attemp to circumvent the law when you cannot get what you want and it trashes the 1st Amendment.


See the harm now?

[trotsky]

43. But it's OK when it's the majority faith, see?

I figured someone would chime in with the attitude that the parent should STFU when it comes to religious proselytization in schools.

[cleanhippie]

45. Yup, very sad, indeed.

[rug]

46. Update: The School Superintendent called back.

She said the flyer was distributed in conformity with School District Policy 913, which were approved by the School Solicitor.http://dvsd.schoolwires.net/185610111981531737/cwp/view.asp?A=3&Q=275194&C=54960 (Sorry, my computer at work won't open the link.)

I see nothing in there that permits this. In fact, materials that "violate federal or state laws" are prohibited. Furthermore, these specific materials may be distributed only after the Superintendent or her designee approves it.

She's blowing smoke up my ass. I'll keep you posted.

[muriel_volestrangler]

47. And section 2, point 7 looks like it's broken too:

(Prohibited activities and materials - activities and materials which: )
"Interfere with or advocate interference with the rights of any individual or the orderly operation of the schools and their programs."

It seems to me there's a 1st amendment right involved here.

[rug]

48. Yup, it looks like a species of proselytizing speech.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=12723054299513362318&q=busch+v.+marple+newtown+school+district&hl=en&as_sdt=800000000002&as_vis=1