DU Pagans/Wiccans/witches, can I have a word?

[Prophet 451]

I've noticed several threads here rebutting Christine O'Donnell's latest lunacy. Reading through them, I notice that several of you go out of your way to explain that you aren't Satanists. Fair enough, you're not. I am though and I know there's a couple of others here as well.

Now, I'm sure it was unintentional but in your understandable urge to both explain that you aren't Satanists and explain that you don't eat babies, sacrifice animal, etc, you seem to be implying (again, accidently, I'm sure) that Satanists do do this stuff and/or that being a Satanist is something terrible. Needless to say, apart from a few teenaged posers, we don't do any of this shit either and being a Satanist isn't something to be ashamed of.

Again, I'm sure you didn't mean to give that impression but please, for those of us who actually are Satanists, could you be a little more careful with your phrasing or at least include something like "Satanists don't do this stuff either"? It would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[RandomThoughts]

1. If you can be honest and open about your thoughts and beliefs.

You probably are not following the same thing by that name that is bad in other religions, even if you mention the label. Unless there are parts of it that have secrecy, deception, selfishness, and hurting people as primary doctrines.

There are many variations of dark side, and in many groups, many people in many religions really aren't the same as the religion they think they follow.


Just like the people that march against the WTO are not anarchist. I think the label you use might be the wrong label, unless you are dishonest about the beliefs, or if you can not talk about them.


If they are the ideas of denial of the supernatural, ideas of self first, and nothing other then this life, then you could be part of that group.


Although many people can serve many things without knowing the real beliefs behind those groups, so sometimes a religion that is based on deception does not even tell the people in it what it is about, so that could be it also. Same thing with some secret fraternal groups.

[Prophet 451]

2. Quick note

"If they are the ideas of denial of the supernatural, ideas of self first, and nothing other then this life, then you could be part of that group."

That's LaVeyan Satanism. Like many belief systems, we have multiple denominations which believe very different things.

[greyl]

5. I think you meant to say "No True Satanist Fallacy". nt

[RandomThoughts]

8. You caught that. It is from the viewpoint of him being the deciever.

The bad from many religions is the deceiver, so no person that could be part of his 'group' or religion, would be told the truth, so it would be impossible for anyone to actually be in that religion, but could be deceived by that religion.


It is why there are so many false doctrines also, and why they are used to try and get people to believe empathy breaking ideas, or ideas that hurt people.

[Ozymanithrax]

3. Satanism (the word) carries baggage of decades of bad movies and centuries...

of bad press. The same can be said for witches, which of course we are not supposed to suffer to live if you accept one translation.

[HEyHEY]

4. But, being a total geek IS something of which to be ashamed

[Prophet 451]

22. Couldn't disagree more

Life-long geek here :)

[sense]

25. No doubt!

[pa28]

6. OK so you are an admitted satanist.

Maybe you can shed some authoritative light on what O'Donnell said. Her "midnight picnic" scene sounded like some leftover from Crowley's "Equinox". I really don't think you innocently stumble into the company of satanists but I'd be curious to hear your interpretation of the story.

[Prophet 451]

13. Yeah, it's bollocks

It simply doesn't happen. I reckon she got it from the usual sources, Sumner, Michelle Remembers and the "Satanic Panics" of the Eighties. Maybe she's crazy enough to believe it actually happened but I'll bet cash money that it didn't or, at least, not in the way she described.

[pa28]

34. She's going to regret that one.

Ironically it may come back to haunt her as it was probably fabricated for the sake of a good salvation story on "Politically Incorrect".

[Prophet 451]

37. That's entirely probable

If you read up on the Satanic Panics, you find this kind of stuff all the time. If you say to your buddies "My Satanist name is Yob-Shagroth and I eat puppies raw", the response you're likely to get is "yes Dave, have another drink Dave". But if you stand up in front of a crowd of Christians (a particular kind of Christian, to be fair) and say "My Satanist name was Yob-Shagroth and I used to eat puppies raw", you get rapt attention, admiring words and, if you're smart about it, lots of opportunities for personal wealth (see Mike Warnke).

[silverojo]

41. My guess....

She might have been hanging around with one of those sickos I mentioned in another post in this thread. There are young people, in particular, who are messed up in the head, and want to rebel against society by scaring people. So they call themselves witches or Satanists, even though they have no clue about either, and make up horrible rituals to prove how badass they are.

Christine might have had a genuine interest in witchcraft, as many young people do. But she was understandably scared off by this guy. Yet, if she had read actual books about witchcraft--and there were lots of them in the 1990's--she would have known this guy was a liar, a loser, and a fake.

What she ought to do now is grow up, act like an adult, and read up on what witchcraft really is, so that she can put her previous experience into proper perspective.

But of course, she won't. Education and teabagging are mutually exclusive.

[pa28]

43. Absolutely.

Her story is fiction at worst and some form of performance art at best. In any case it's in play for the election and I think she should go on the record about it.

:evilgrin:

[Lucian]

7. Oh yeah...

admitting you believe (and worship) in a being who does nothing but bring about death, destruction, human suffering, deception, etc., is so much better, right?

:eyes:

[Prophet 451]

14. OK, rule one....

...what you think we worship is not the same thing as what we think we worship.

[Lucian]

17. Enlighten me.

Last I checked, I knew who Satan was. Where am I wrong?

:eyes:

[Prophet 451]

20. To our way of thinking, yes

We (Luciferians) view Satan as the jusified rebel against a tyrannical god.

[Lucian]

45. Who causes death, destruction, disorder, suffering...

disease, pretty much every bad thing imaginable. Yeah, let's worship/praise/look up to that guy. :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: Referring to Satan as a justified rebel is like saying Hitler was rebelling against the tyrannical Jews. :eyes:

I'm not religious, in fact I'm an atheist, but if I were religious, I'd rather worship someone who doesn't do/cause those bad things.

[Prophet 451]

46. Once again

What you think of our deity is not what we think of our deity. We don't think Satan causes any of that stuff. Who created the universe, designed the system, put the pieces in place and designed the maze? Answer that and you'll understand who's actually responsible for this stuff.

Incidently, for an atheist, you seem unusually wedded to a very Christian worldview (and fixated on a particular smiley). Just an observation.

[Lucian]

48. I'm just basing everything on the Christian belief.

But thinking on what the bible says, apparently all the bad things in the world (death, disease, etc) were caused by the fall of man, as a punishment from god.

Hmmmm.

Touche, Prophet 451.

[skepticscott]

72. Well, since neither Satan nor the god

he supposedly rebelled against actually exist, neither religious practice makes particularly more sense than the other in any case.

And of course, there are also plenty of folk nowadays who think Hitler was a really great guy, one they'd like to have a beer with.

[Prophet 451]

73. Not quite the same thing

Hitler's atrocities are a matter of recorded, provable history. God and Satan are, as I'll be the first to admit, a matter of faith, neither provable nor disprovable.

[skepticscott]

76. The point is

that just because someone's follower's/worshippers/adherents think that they weren't all that bad (or even that they were good) doesn't make it so.

And when you say things like this:

"What you think of our deity is not what we think of our deity. We don't think Satan causes any of that stuff. Who created the universe, designed the system, put the pieces in place and designed the maze? Answer that and you'll understand who's actually responsible for this stuff."

You don't sound at all like this is simply a matter of faith or imagination to you. "actually responsible" is a statement of fact, not belief. Why would you make statements like that, or live your life as if any of it were true, unless you actually have what you consider to be convincing evidence for it?

[Prophet 451]

89. True but...

What is convincing evidence for me is not necessarily convincing evidence for you. To me, my personal experiances with Father Lucifer count as convincing evidence. You, however, would be entirely within your rights to assume that I was deluded or mentally ill in some way. When the poster above and I talk about who is "actually responsible", we are talking about matters of faith, viewed through a religious paradigm.

[XemaSab]

47. I have no dog in this fight

but in the Bible, God is the one who causes virtually all of the suffering.

Satan's big moments were tempting Jesus before the crucifixion (which God caused) and tempting Eve in the garden (with the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, which God would have denied us).

Making it like God is some terrific dude and Satan is the big bad in the Bible is not supportable.

Even the Gnostics believed that the God of the Bible was a total poser, and they posited a beneficial goddess, Sophia, as the creator of the flawed Demiurge.

[Lucian]

49. I realize that now.

I wasn't thinking before (it's been a long day).

I added the "touche, Prophet 451" at the end of my last reply to him. :)

God is a massive asshole.

[tavalon]

52. You just described Yahweh perfectly, by the way

Think about that for a minute or two.

[Lucian]

53. Already did.

See post 48.

[roguevalley]

56. I don't care for the tribal god of Israel with all his violence and

the consuming duality between good and evil with tests strewn about. IMO, God is independent of most of the notions we have about him, the melding of personal ideology, duality of reasoning based on flawed perspectives, personal shibboleths and philosophy and the rest. I have never thought that a god that could create the infinity of the universe would care so much that he would be checking a list of things so mundane as whether you believed in satan or dabbled in witchcraft. The god that I believe in would allow curiosity and not feel the threat, thereby allowing progress.

[cleanhippie]

77. Doesnt that pretty much describe god?

a being who does nothing but bring about death, destruction, human suffering, deception, etc.,


The bible is FULL of god doing those things.......

[ZombieHorde]

81. Delete, issue resolved. nt

[Zephie]

9. TL:DR edit of what I wrote before

I tried very hard to jump through every hoop I could think of to be all inclusive of my language in my OP and I apologize if I offended you. I also apologize for rambling before this edit.

[Prophet 451]

24. Didn't see it before the edit

And I wasn't actually offended, it was more a "Um, did you mean that?" thing although I appreciate the good will evident in the apology.

[shireen]

10. Just curious ... exactly what is a Satanist?

Thanks!

:hi:

[Prophet 451]

18. How long do you have?

This could get rather complicated. In the most basic terms, a Satanist is anyone who worships Satan. However, it can be roughly broken down into three main denominations: LaVeyan Satanists (the biggest denomination) don't believe Satan exists but worship him as a kind of metaphysical embodiment of selfish urges and are called "Satanism" largely because Anton LaVey liked annoying Christians. Essentially, it's materialism with mystical knobs on.

The Temple of Set are the second largest. They have a very complicated theology that I admit I don't fully understand but from what I can tell, they worship Satan (who they prefer to call Set) as a sort-of patron spirit of intellectual enlightenment.

Luciferian Satanists are the smallest and least organised. We actually do worship Satan but disagree wholly with Christians on his character and motivations. We consider him the justified rebel against a tyrannical god.

Finally, there's a loose collection of mostly teenaged posers who adopt some of the symbols or phrases to try and justify stuff like sacrificing animals and vandalising graveyards. The vast majority of us loathe them for fairly obvious reasons.

[flamingdem]

54. Question: where does Halloween fit into your religious universe? nt

[Prophet 451]

55. In simple terms, it doesn't

Well, that's not entirely true. I buy candy to give out to the neighbourhood kids and it is (by complete coincidence) our aniversary. But it has no religious significance to me.

[shireen]

79. thanks for the info

you gave me a good summary of the fundamentals. I can look up the details on google.

I suspected as much that Satanist don't worship Satan in the conventional sense that we know, that is, as an entity of evil. There are many ways to interpret what 'Satan' means.

BTW, if you haven't already, there's an interesting novel by Arthur C. Clarke, called "Childhood's End". I think you'll like it. There's more at the wikipedia summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood's_End

[Prophet 451]

85. Thanks for the recommendation

Adding that to the Amazon list.

[Fuzz]

11. Arg, ghosts, goblins and invisible things one 'worships' or has ceremonies

for are to be equally mocked, imho.

[Prophet 451]

15. Fair enough n/t

[wookie72]

83. You might want to change your avatar then

Dylan may not be a "Christian" any longer, but in most interviews he says he believes in at least something.

[alittlelark]

12. I would suggest a name change.... honestly

In all honesty I do not know much about satanism, but I DO know that its negative connotations will not be eradicated this year, decade, generation or likely century.

Just Sayin' as an atheist.

[Prophet 451]

16. We're tried occasionally

See, for example, the Temple of Set or the use of "Luciferianism". But everyone says "you're Satanists" so, eventually, you figure "fuck it, we do worship the devil".

[alittlelark]

32. 'Temple of the Set' sounds just fine.

Work on it... Your current name sucks! Get involved in what you believe in and make changes Happen!

[Prophet 451]

35. Well, the Temple have their own theology

See, we can be broadly divided into three major denominations. The LaVeyans have that name largely because Anton LaVey liked annoying Christians. Luciferians (this includes me) actually do worship the devil but consider him the justified rebel against a tyrannical god. The Temple have a fairly complex theology which centres around veneration of Set as the spirit of enlightenment (as far as I understand it anyway).

[alittlelark]

40. Could you send me a link that actually defines your beliefs?

I am curious and googling it is producing varied results.

I may be an atheist, but I am interested.

[Prophet 451]

44. Sort-of

Wiki has a half-decent article on Luciferianism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferianism ) and Theistic Satanism generally ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_Satanism ) although the usual limitations of Wiki should be borne in mind. Diane Vera runs a fairly comprehensive site on Theistic Satanism ( http://theisticsatanism.com/ ). My personal beliefs are closest to the Black Goat Cabal ( http://theisticsatanism.com/bgoat/ ) although I also differ from them in some areas, in much the same way as even the staunchest Catholic will disagree with the Pope on some things.

Probably the single best primer on Luciferian Satanic thought is a novel called The Devil's Apocrypha. I can't find an online copy but you might be able to torrent it.

[wookie72]

84. Interesting stuff, but I still don't know what your core beliefs are

Like, for example, is there a theme to your religion, like the Golden Rule or the Four Noble Truths, or the Five Pillars?
It sounds like you've done a lot of reading about other religions, and you know your stuff (too many atheists and anti-theists seem to think, for example, that if the Pope says it's so, all Catholics must believe it or be excommunicated. It's good to see you know that's not true.)

[Prophet 451]

86. If you mean in the sense of the Ten Commandments...

...then no, there isn't although we follow the Golden Rule just as most belief systems do. There are numerous recommendations scattered throughout the various writings on the subject however. For example, The Devil's Apocrypha (a novel but an excellent primer on Luciferian thought) contains the teaching that "if the lot of man is to improve, the seer must be the doer" i.e. it isn't enough to bemoan how awful injustice is, you must do something about it. In very, very simple terms, you can boil it down to self-reliance, compassion, justice and truth. Now, the last of those requires qualification because what we are discussing is the truth as you understand it. My truth is not necessarily the same as your truth.

I hope that helps but I fear it might not. Trying to explain a whole belief system is not an easy task.

[wookie72]

92. I completely understand

I consider myself a postmodern believer, i.e. I think we're all grasping around. But let me put it this way: I consider JC and the Buddha exemplars, something to aspire to. I'm just wondering how following Lucifer would be different. (My only experience with Satanism is LaVey, who seemed to preach selfishness, basically Ayn Rand with ritualistic trappings)
I'm genuinely interested, btw.

[Prophet 451]

93. Hmmm

I had much the same opinion of LaVey.

If you mean, how does your life change in day-to-day practice, I'm not sure how to answer that. The being you pray to has a different name but probably the primary differences are in how we should conduct ourselves. We should be compassionate, seek knowledge and self-improvement and stand for those who cannot stand for themselves. Is that any different from how followers of most faiths are supposed to conduct themselves? I wouldn't know. As far as who we look up to or consider worth emulating: Opinion is divided on JC (some consider him too passive) but I think he was a great man, Buddha, Mahatma Ghandi, many others. Two I would add that might not come to mind: The unknown hero of Tianeman Square and Giles Corey, a victim of the Inquisitions who was subjected to the press (being sandwiched between two boards which then have rocks piled on top) and, knowing he wouldn't get a fair trial, responded to every question with the words "more weight" (as in, add more stones). Since we are taught to fight for the right, no matter what the personal cost, those two stand as awe-inspiring examples.

[Nye Bevan]

19. Did you sell your soul? If so, what did you get in exchange?

And in the Satanist community, is "go to hell" considered to be a compliment?

[Prophet 451]

21. In order

Yes, but I was twelve years old at the time so I don't think it counts.
Nothing, she still didn't want to date me.
No, it's mainly used as a joke or something like "get outta here".

[cecilfirefox]

23. As a Wiccan, Pagan, and a Religious Studies Major at a Big 12 school,

I do not understand why you folks call yourselves Satanists or say you practice Satanism. The very word is derived from the Christian religion, by choosing that name you choose to identify as something that the vast, VAST, majority of the population is going to infer as meaning something else- then you guys get your panties in a knot when people make those accusations or infer as such.

I know I'm just a young idealistic college student dreaming of a better world- but why is that this doesn't make much sense to me??

[Prophet 451]

28. Oh, that's complicated

Firstly, we have occasionally made efforts to use a different name but since most people say "you're just Satanists", many of us eventually figure "fuck it" and use the name ourselves.
Secondly, and speaking as a Luciferian Satanist, what else should we call ourselves? We worship a being known by various names and virtually all of those names are known to be synonyms for "Satan" by the public. We could call ourselves "Luciferians" (and I did for a while) but since everyone is going to see that as Satanist anyway, why bother? Now, LaVeyan Satanists are something a bit different. They have a different belief system and seem to be called "Satanist" largely because Anton LaVey liked annoying Christians.
Thirdly, why should we use a different phrase? I'd imagine a fairly large number hold anti-muslim views right now, should the muslims call themselves something else?
Finally, and from the point of view that actually cares about facts, the accusations have always been bullshit.

[cecilfirefox]

30. Then explain to me this being your following,

As I understand it from what you are writing you are then some sort of theistic Satanist who is worshiping a being- if so, what being and where did it come from(In terms of religious movements)?

[Prophet 451]

33. OK, I'll do my best

Yes, I am a Theistic Satanist and I worship a being whom I refer to as "Lucifer" and who we believe was the justified rebel against a tyrannical god. That is, I fully admit, drawn in large part from Christian theology, disagreeing on character and intent of the rebel, but also incorporates elements from Gnosticism and various other faiths.
Where did it come from? The honest answer is that no-one really knows. We can trace some of the concepts back but as a faith, no-one's entirely sure. You have to realise that organised groups of Satanists are extremely unusual. Most of us came to these beliefs independent of anyone else and meeting someone with the same beliefs was very rare until recently. It's only because of the rise of the internet that we're able to find one another. We don't have the huge books of history that most other faiths do so while some of the individual concepts can be traced to various sources, none of us know who the first person to describe themselves as a Satanist was.

Hope that was relatively easy to follow.

[meowomon]

26. Aw, she was proly just hangin out with some dudes who thought they'd pick up some cool points.

They went up to some abandoned old house with lots of "devil worship" graffiti on the walls. They listened to head banging music and thought they were conjuring up some power from beyond. Anything that is anti establishment is way awesome to kids. O'Donnel seems to be a narcissistic publicity seeker and wouldn't know a real Satanist.

There are none of those baby eating kind and if they do eat babies and call themselves a satanist, they are really just deranged individuals who use religion for their depravity. Like the man who bombed the Murrow building, the man who killed my doctor, J. Baird Britton and the evil men who killed almost 3000 on 9-11-01.

While not exactly liking the idea of calling it Satanism, I understand the reasons. I personally love Kali-Ma, the destroyer of earths and eater of men. I don't feel you can really embrace all of life without embracing the dark as well as the light. There is no damned "Satan". Nor in my opinion, is there a God.

[eridani]

27. Most pagans I know of think of Satanists as Christian heretics

--who may eventually move on to actual paganism which disregards the Christian version of God and also its devil.

Presumably this is all distinct from that Muslin, Satinist, Linenist triumvirate.

[Prophet 451]

31. That's one way of looking at it

A friend of mine (who happens to be Christian) and I once worked out that Satanism can be classified as an Abrahamic faith (since we acknowledge the Abrahamic God even if we don't worship him) which owes much of it's terminology to Christianity but also draws elements from other faiths.

[meowomon]

29. "They" lump all heathens together anyway, so it

doesn't matter your explanation, nothing will let us into "their" heaven. Like I'd want to hang out with a bunch of mean nasty old bigots for all eternity. In the words of Billy Joel, "I'd rather laugh with the sinners, than die with the Saints".

[silverojo]

36. I'm aware of this, but thanks for bringing it up

True Satanists are definitely not the sociopaths and psychos using "Satanism" as a catch-all excuse for their cruel, sick behavior.

The one good thing about Christine O'Dumbell is that she's going to get people talking about witchcraft, and real witches will take the opportunity to dispel the myths.

A lot of people seem to think Islam is the most-maligned religion in the world. Not by a long shot. Pagans of all types have it a lot worse, and Satanists have it worst of all.

I've defended witchcraft, but I've never condemned Satanists on this board. Rest assured, there are people who understand the difference between true Satanists and the sick freaks who give them (you) a bad name by hijacking the term for themselves.

With threads like yours, though, perhaps more people will learn the difference. I'm silverojo, and I approve your message. :)

[Prophet 451]

39. Cheers dude

For fairly obvious reasons, most of loathe the idiots who use Satanism as an excuse for being a dickhead.

[TlalocW]

38. This thread brings up so many questions for me

Do Satanists have potluck dinners?
Do they adopt pieces of the highway to clean up?
Are there, "Lapsed Satanists?"

TlalocW

[Prophet 451]

42. Seriously?

Problem with the internet is that I can't tell when someone's joking. Probably exposing myself as humourless, I'll assume you're serious.
A) Not usually. There's rarely enough of us in one place to make it viable.
B) Yes, but not in the sense of "this highway was cleaned by the First Satanic Church of Michigan" or whatever. While many of us are charitable, we tend to act privately and, where possible, anonymously.
C) I don't know any but logically, I guess there must be.

[ORDagnabbit]

50. satanism is just a subset of christianity...same mythology. no christianity - no satanism.

[Prophet 451]

57. Partly true

We're not a subset of Christianity because to be a Christian, you have to worship Jesus as divine (see Nicene Creed) and while many of us view Jesus as a pretty cool guy, very few of us think of him as divine. Additionally, we draw elements from many non-Christian faiths, most obviously Gnosticism. But it's fair to say both that if Christianity didn't exist, Satanism (probably) wouldn't either and that we draw much of our terminology from Christianity.

[tavalon]

51. It seems that everyone needs a whipping "boy"

For nudists, it's swingers. For swingers, it's polyamorous folk. For Pagans, it's the Satanists. I've had interesting conversations with older Satanists and while I can't help but see it as an offshoot of Christianity, for what that's worth, I hardly see Satanists as the boogieman.

[Prophet 451]

59. Thank you

To an extent, describing us as an offshoot of Christianity (but distinct from it in the same way as Mormonism) is true. In many ways, we're similar to some of the pre-Nicene Creed heresies while also incorporating elements from outside Christianity (such as Gnosticism).

[southmost]

58. in religions god and satan are all relative

for most ancient religions

Cristianity Came And Slaughtered the original religion
whereby Gods Became Satan
and Satan Became God


so it can be confusing for sure

[lillypaddle]

60. Interesting thread

I just recc'd & it when from 8 recs to 7! I appreciate the calm & respectful discussion, even though I just "don't get it." Guess some aren't as open minded as you'd think dems/liberals might be.

[shireen]

80. another reason to hate the 'unrec' feature! nt

[Luminous Animal]

61. I am totally loving the being a rebel and worshiping thing.

I've got the silver tongue but I lack the immorality to be a flimflam man.

[Skip Intro]

62. A question, please.

Doesn't the fact that you call yourself a Satanist mean that you, if not worship, somehow hold that deity in high regard?

What is a Satanist without Satan?

[Prophet 451]

63. And an explanation

In brief terms, Satanists come in three main denominations. LaVeyans follow an atheistic philosophy which essentially amounts to materialism with mystical knobs on. It's called "Satanism" mainly because Anton LaVey liked annoying Christians.
The Temple of Set have a fairly complex theology which I confess I don't fully understand but which seems to be based around emulating Set as a figure of intellectual enlightment.
Luciferians (which is what I am) do worship Satan. However, what we understand by "Satan" is not the same as, say, Pat Robertson understands by the same term. In the absolute simplest terms, we worship Lucifer (Satan) as the justified rebel against a tyrannical god. However, we don't (as a rule) sacrifice animals or babies, commit crimes, abuse children or pretty much anything else from the tabloid press or a Dennis Wheatley novel.
The people who do do shit like that are referred to by any variety of derogatory names. Diane Vera refers to them as Black Circle Boys after the film of the same name. They're usually teenagers who appropriate the symbols and a few of the phrases for shock value but don't know or understand a thing about the belief systems that underpin them. Think of them as the Satanist equivelent of Hitler's protestations of his Catholicism and you're on the right lines. For fairly obvious reasons, the vast majority of Satanists loathe them.

[Skip Intro]

64. That's what I don't get.

Thanks for responding, and your response was enlightening. But I don't get that, if God is real, which you must believe if you believe Satan is real, then, as I understand things in that realm, you forsake the entity of love for the entity of hatred, or the entity of all that is good for the entity that is of all that is bad, the opposite of God. If you believe in the God paradigm, and side with the his/her enemy, his/her antithesis, then you must shun the "ten comandments." I don't get how someone can buy into the whole biblical thing and then side with the bad guy. What am I missing?

[Prophet 451]

65. That we don't consider him the bad guy

Are you familiar with the concept of theodicy? In the simplest terms, theodicy is the theological concept of the problem of evil. One way to express it would be "If God exists, why is there evil? If he cannot stop it, he is not God. If he will not stop it, he is not worthy of worship". Luciferian Satanism solves that problem by positing that God is a fucking liar.

To us, the Bible is, at best, propoganda. It's the form of account written by the being who controls the accounts, one that demonises (pun intended) his opponants while whitewashing his motives. If you read the Bible, you find that the overwhelming majority of evil acts are actually committed by God. Murders, rape (or, at least, the tacit encouragement of it), slavery (ditto) and so on and we're not supposed to question the Big Beard, essentially because he's more powerful than us. Luciferian Satanism says "fuck that", not only can we question God's motives and morality, we must do so because a moral system where the most immoral of acts can be made moral purely by the boss saying so is the most relative morality of all. If God is, well, God, then he designed the system, he specified the crimes and punishments, he set the pieces in place knowing full well what the results would be. Logically then, he is to blame for the results of that system.

Further, when you follow that thought process to it's conclusion, what you end up with is not a God of love but a God with an adolescent fixation on being loved. And if you torture humanity and they love you for it anyway... That's power, that's the feeling of having people devoted to you. The slow-of-thinking imagine that, if God was the sadist we believe him to be, why he doesn't just kill us all? And that's why they are slow-of-thinking. Because the true sadist is looking to inflict pain. Just killing everyone brings that to an end. If you are a supreme being and a sadist, why not create a world which is constantly divided by religion, by race, by sexuality; a world which can never truly know peace. A world where life is a constant struggle; create a thinking, feeling human and then forbid them to use those facilities; design them with instincts and urges and then forbid them from excercising those. That's the act of a sadist, the kind of mentality that likes leaving footballs on the pavement filled with concrete. And then, to do all that and command humanity to love you for it?

So I chose to worship the first rebel, the one who stood up and said "hang on, this is bollocks!" (yes, we disagree very strongly with Christians on Satan's motives). And what I found there was a being that didn't command my love but desired my friendship, that didn't condemn my rage and hatred but taught only that they needed to be channelled in the right direction; that taught that it wasn't enough to pray for the unfortunate, you had to get off your knees and get your hands dirty; that said that it is my actions that define me, not the thoughts that none of us can really control. A friend not an authority figure, a mentor not a commander, a teacher, a lover and a guide. He is my deity and my friend and yes, I love him.

Now, full disclosure: I have a pretty twisted way of thinking and I am mentally ill. I suffer from Major Depressive Disorder. I don't think my beliefs are coloured by that because I've held much the same beliefs (in a somewhat simplified form) since I was a teenager but I'll concede that it's a possibility. I'll concede also that I can't prove any of this to anyone but nor am I trying to. It's faith, the belief in things unseen and unproven and my beliefs do not require you t believe them. Faith is a journey, not a destination and although we may compare maps on occasion, it's a journey which each of us must undertake for ourselves because the journey teaches us as much, if not more, than the arrival.

That's my opinion anyway.

[Skip Intro]

66. Wow. Thank you for that very eloquent reply. I still have a question.

Do you believe in Hell?

I ask, because, as I've been taught to believe, Satan rules over Hell, and Hell is not a place anyone would want to be.

This concept of Hell, however, has led me to question my belief. How could a loving and merciful God condemn his own creations to an eternity of misery? I don't get that.

However, I do know that I have prayed to God, in the name of Jesus Christ, and have asked for things to come to be that have come to be. Some of things came to be against the greatest of odds.

What I really think is going on is that there is some great universal force, with unlimited power to manifest the certain beliefs of those who ask for that manifestation. Belief being the operative word. There are schools of thought on this that say you can, essentially, will your own reality. That's where my beliefs fall for the most part. And if people want to call that God, it's no skin off my nose.

But that steps outside the whole Biblical sphere. And outside that sphere is where I think the truth lies. The truth lies. Urrrghhh!

[Prophet 451]

69. Yes but...

Yes, I believe in Hell. However, if you think about it, it makes no sense for a being who has openly declared his opposition to God to carry out God's wishes in his own realm. Why would Satan go along with God's plan by torturing the Hellbound? It makes no sense. Hell is Satan's domain and, as such, under his control and so, it's not half as bad as it's cracked up to be.

Even if it were as bad as it was described, it wouldn't change my position. Because it's not about winning or having a nice cushy afterlife, it's about doing what is right, no matter what it costs or how long it takes.

[rug]

67. For what reason would God cause evil?

For that matter, why would Satan cause evil?

[Prophet 451]

70. Why...

I don't think Satan causes evil.

As for God... You know how some children go through a phase of pulling the wings off flies? He's the supreme being, no-one ever told him it was wrong. I once saw an online video (I think it was even on this site) of a man taking a dog for a walk. He stepped into an elevator and called the dog, and it was a friendly little thing. And then he kicked it across the elevator and the dog cowered away from him but when he called it over again, the dog came up to him, wagging it's tail and hoping it's owner would give it a fuss. And this happened over and over again, a boot followed by cowering, followed by his master's call and the hope of a kind reception. And I can remember thinking that this little turd, this evil little shitehawk, he must have felt like a god. Because that's power. When you can abuse something unable to defend itself and it will keep coming back, it'll love you anyway, that's devotion, that's power. And for a being hung up on being glorified, being adored, that's the only rationale required.

[rug]

75. That doesn't answer why.

Assuming limitless power, you cannot assume the only expression of that limitless power is sadism.

[Prophet 451]

87. But you cannot assume it isn't either n/t

[mysticalchick]

68. Thank you for explaining, Prophet

I appreciate you clarifying things as you did. So much of theology comes from bits and pieces we gather as we go along and it helps when someone can speak to their beliefs clearly. (I'm sure you get a lot of practice!)

This was enlightening - I knew a bit about Anton LaVey but not a lot further than that. And I have to add that it's been a very reasonable discussion - I've seen these things (right here, even!) get totally out of hand.

FWIW, I'm all for people following their own path - whatever that is. Knowing there are always consequences (positive and negative) of our actions, we are free to choose what feels authentic.

Thanks again for the clarification.

[Prophet 451]

71. You're very welcome

I used to work for Beliefnet.com. So I got quite a lot of practice explaining my beliefs roughly every month :)

[MorningGlow]

74. Not at all

In my thread on the subject, all I said was what WITCHES do and do not do. I never said that Satanists do the things that witches do not. The only "comparison" I made to Satanists was my point "Satanism is an entirely different belief system." That is all.

As one of the main tenets of witches/pagans is "An (if) it harm none, do as thou wilt." In other words, live and let live. So in my view, you have the right to believe whatever you want, practice however you want. I was just pointing out the basics of the belief of witchcraft. I noticed your response in my thread, and I think it explained Satanism very well. (I didn't respond to your post and others because my son wasn't feeling well and I couldn't get back on the computer last night.) :hi:

[Prophet 451]

88. I hope your son is feeling better

I appreciate that I may be being overly sensitive on these matters.

[MorningGlow]

94. Thank you

He's 6 and so pretty resilient. Home from school today, though, with lots of sneezes.

And you don't have to explain to me about being sensitive about your beliefs! I am right with you on that! Zoinks! :) :hi:

[rrneck]

78. Interesting stuff.

You've got a good thread here. Would that followers of other faiths had as intelligent and articulate understanding of their deity as you. They could learn a lot from your example. Rowing against the current is more work but you learn a lot more about rivers that way.

I expect your brain chemistry has had a considerable effect on your beliefs. I know mine does. If your experience is like mine you have to, for lack of a better term, create faith every day; sometimes every hour. If you want to really understand how something works build it yourself.

[Prophet 451]

90. I'm never sure how much effect my brain chemistry has

I've held these beliefs in a somewhat simplified form since I was quite young but I wasn't diagnosed as ill until I was in my mid-twenties. Could my chemistry have been being affected a decade prior to that? I don't know, I'm a techie (and training in ciminology), not a doctor.

That said, thank you for the kind words.

[ZombieHorde]

82. I recommend pro-Satan threads.

I read a really good article in Gnosis magazine about the Temple of Set, written by one of their priests.

http://www.gnosismagazine.com/issue_contents/contents50.html

[Prophet 451]

91. Thanks for the link

Once I can find my credit card (I think my SO has been on eBay again), I'll be ordering that issue.