New Meaning to 'Onward, Christian Soldiers'

[cleanhippie]

Let me get this said at the beginning: I am both an active church member and a three-year veteran of the U.S. Army.

Now. Despite the above - because of it, actually - I can't help being troubled by the "Rock the Fort" Christian event that the Billy Graham Evangel-istic Association threw at neighboring Fort Bragg on Saturday.

I'm also aware that a majority of my fellow Americans - especially readers in this part of the country - probably do not join me in that feeling. They are more likely, in fact, to be troubled by groups like Americans United for the Separation of Church and State - which complained that the event improperly enlisted the military in a campaign to win converts to Jesus.

Sorry, but those annoying people are right.

http://www.thepilot.com/news/2010/sep/29/new-meaning-to-onward-christian-soldiers/#comments

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A very reasoned and sensible argument. I concur.

[cleanhippie]

1. MODS - Please move this to R&T, I misposted!

[riderinthestorm]

2. In light of the US Air Force Academy thread and evangelicals

in the military, AND religious services within the military....

I just have to K & R this.

[Arazi]

3. Another kick for those who aren't worried enuf about the rising religious craziness in the military

Sheesh, more from the article:

:scared:

"The Bragg observance was not the first of its kind. Nor will it be the last, apparently. The Graham organization held others at Fort Jackson, Ky., in June and Fort Leonard Wood, Mo. (where I went through basic training during another steamy-hot summer a zillion years ago), and at least one more is planned for Fort Jackson later this year. The Bragg gathering was reportedly different in that it invited community members to attend along with Army members.

I don't know exactly what happened at the event. Some described it (cringe) as an attempt to recruit "God's Army." Besides fervent messages from evangelical speakers and presumably altar calls, there was also to be music performed by such Christian artists as Hawk Nelson and God Rocks.

...

The military has always had chaplains, but their purpose has been to serve members of various religious faiths, not to take the words to "Onward, Christian Soldiers" seriously by appearing as if they're trying to turn military members into modern-day Crusaders."

[riderinthestorm]

4. Afternoon kick. nt

[humblebum]

5. You would first have to ask yourself if those attending this event were under compulsion

to attend, which you know well they were not. If that is the case then probably any attempt to interfere with such an event would be a violation of C&S, and also of their rights of freedom of speech, of assembly, and of the free exercise of religion. It doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks of it, as long as no one is being forced to attend or participate. If others are annoyed, then really it is a personal problem. Go see a movie.
This is certainly nothing new in the military. These kinds of religious events have been going on for as long as there has been a US military.

[cleanhippie]

6. There was some compulsion to attend.

Many stated that if they don't go to these things, then they stay at the barracks and clean and do other chores.

And just because its been happening does not make it right, or legal

[humblebum]

7. Very doubtful if there was any compulsion and if any did happen

it was extremely rare and there is recourse. Never did I see any instances of that during my time and I doubt whether you did either. As for being right - that's opinion. As for being legal, religious services are totally legal on a military base.

[cleanhippie]

8. Have you not read ACTUAL servicepersons reports from this?

The informal "compulsion" was far greater than you seem to think it was. ANd if you do not think that the idea of "go to this evangelical presentation or stay in the barracks and scrub toilets" is not recourse, then you and I are not living in the same reality.

Religious services are offered at the CHAPEL, where they belong. Utilizing government property, equipment and base-sanctioned support for a single-denomination event like this where the overt theme is proselytizing IS unconstitutional, not just my opinion.

I too, am speaking from experience. As a 21 year Navy veteran, I saw quite a few of these myself, and they were hardly non-demoniational nor "optional" in attendance. I was personally responsible just 6 years ago for stopping a command policy for weekend duty sections where if on Sunday, there was no work to be done, the duty section could either attend church services or stay at the hangar and clean, then everyone could secure at noon when services were over. Do you think THAT is constitutional? Neither did my CO when I explained it to him, and the policy was ended. (In his defense, it was a carry-over policy from the previous Skipper that he had not addressed)

[charlie]

9. Google Ft Eustis and Barlow Girls

for a recent instance of the attend or be subject to lock down you're describing.

[cleanhippie]

10. Exactly. For someone to claim it doesnt happen is just plain ignorant.

[humblebum]

11. First of all, you need to get your stories straight. Which is it?

This? - "I am both an active church member and a three-year veteran of the U.S. Army." or this?- "I too, am speaking from experience. As a 21 year Navy veteran, I saw quite a few of these myself" or both. Secondly, just because you say something is unconstitutional does not make it so. Religious speech is still speech and therefore protected under the freedom of speech. Freedom of assembly inside a chapel or outside of a chapel is nowhere deliniated. And the free exercise of religion is certainly not limited to private locations. The word "free" has a specific meaning. No one that I know of enjoys overt in your face proselytizing, but if it is not forced it is nothing more than bothersome. And I never said that it never happened at all - I said cases are rare.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cleanhippie]

16. You need to learn how to read.

Only the last line in that post is mine, as is indicated.

[humblebum]

17. And you need to learn how to write and use proper quotation and citation.

DU rules forbid plagiarism.

[cleanhippie]

18. Like I stated, notify the mods. I did.

And Like I explained to you, you were wrong, which is why they deleted the sub-thread. If you continue to accuse me, I will notify again.

[humblebum]

19. Then I can only assume that you are the author of the article. NT

[cleanhippie]

20. Assume away.

But as usual, you would be wrong. Again.


As per DU's posting rules:

Copyrights: Do not copy-and-paste entire articles onto this discussion forum. When referencing copyrighted work, post a short excerpt (not exceeding 4 paragraphs) with a link back to the original.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[humblebum]

21. It does not matter where you are presenting your writing. Whenever

you borrow someone else's exact quotation and fail to put it in quotation marks with proper citation, you are claiming that quotation as your own. It is the universal academic standard.

[cleanhippie]

22. then start alerting the mods. You can start with my thread then move to GD

and just start going down the list. This is the accepted method on DU, if you don;t like it, take it up with the mods, but please, let it go with me. You have made your point and I have made mine.

[humblebum]

23. I think it should be done with too, but you started posting again. nt

[cleanhippie]

24. I know, I couldn't help myself.

Sorry about that, I too, get emotional sometimes.

[ironbark]

13. "Jesus killed Mohammed" The crusade for a Christian military.

“Humphrey had been in Samarra for a month, and until that day his stay had been a quiet respite in one of the world’s oldest cities. Not long before, though, there had been a hint of trouble: a briefing in which his squad was warned that any soldier caught desecrating Islamic sites—Samarra is considered a holy city—would fall under “extreme penalty,” a category that can include a general court-martial and prison time. “I heard some guys were vandalizing mosques,” Humphrey says. “Spray-painting ’em with crosses.”
The rest of that Easter was spent under siege. Insurgents held off Bravo Company, which was called in to rescue the men in the compound. Ammunition ran low. A helicopter tried to drop more but missed. As dusk fell, the men prepared four Bradley Fighting Vehicles for a “run and gun” to draw fire away from the compound. Humphrey headed down from the roof to get a briefing. He found his lieutenant, John D. DeGiulio, with a couple of sergeants. They were snickering like schoolboys. They had commissioned the Special Forces interpreter, an Iraqi from Texas, to paint a legend across their Bradley’s armor, in giant red Arabic script.
“What’s it mean?” asked Humphrey.
“Jesus killed Mohammed,” one of the men told him. The soldiers guffawed. JESUS KILLED MOHAMMED was about to cruise into the Iraqi night.”

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488

[humblebum]

14. "... a general court-martial and prison time" are very much in order here.

Whoever gave the order is an embarrassment to the US military, to Christians who abhor this type of behavior, and harmful to the mission. They need to be made an example of.

[onager]

15. My USMC experience...

1. Compulsion to attend a religious service? You bet - those dorky "Prayer Breakfasts" sponsored by some bunch of Bible-thumpers. I got ordered to attend that stupid thing several times. But since outsiders also attended, at least the food was better than usual. Fresh eggs instead of powdered!

When I was in the Corps, AFAIK, you could not get "Atheist" on your dog tags. Dog tags seemed limited to the Major Religions. Or "No Pref(erence)," which is what mine said.

Well, what a coincidence! Everybody who was a "No Pref" always seemed to end up at the Prayer Breakfast!

I don't believe that was an official decision from the higher-ups. Most likely it was believers who worked in S-1 (Administration) and made up the roster of...uh... volunteers to attend. They had access to the personnel records, where religious preference (or not) was recorded.

As usual in all military units, there are never enough people to volunteer for anything, so people get volunteered. Somebody probably thought the prayer breakfast might convert us heathens. If so, that person was badly mistaken. We just ate the food and cracked sacriligeous jokes.

2. When I was a Drill Instructor, in our Series (4 platoons) we encouraged recruits to skip Sunday services.

We suggested that instead of sleeping (which is all they did in church anyway), the time might be better spent learning how to field-strip their rifle or apply a field dressing...since, in a serious situation, the rifle or the field dressing would be a lot more helpful than Jesus. (As expressed in the Official Marine Corps Proverb: "A sucking chest wound is Nature's way of saying - 'you fucked up.'")

Unfortunately, we were a victim of our own success. So many recruits started skipping church that the Chaplains noticed. In a heartwarming display of ecumenicalism, the Catholic and Protestant sky-pilots got behind an order that at least 50 per cent of each platoon WOULD be at Sunday services every week.

In general, D.I.'s don't much like Chaplains, for reasons it would take me too long to explain. But some of which should be obvious if you've ever seen Full Metal Jacket.

[ZombieHorde]

25. Fucking lame. nt