On religion and evolution

[nadinbrzezinski]

Well we have seen here the reaction to some of us not sharing a spiritual view of the world. Now let's put this in perspective. It is not the US. We are seeing this reaction by leaders of the three major faiths. So let me explain what extreme Orthodox Jews have taken. Kids go to schools far away from public. Here these kids are taught a literal explanation of the Bible. There is no access to oh the Internet. Nor to oh modern chemistry or physics. Yes, these kids are stuck in the 17th century.

The same is happening with some Muslims and some Christians. In the US the Home School movement is not limited to right wing Christians, and yes for the record Progressives are also part of it. But it does help to shelter kids from the evils of this social evolution.

Now why is this happening? Why do these people feel under attack? In a way they are. This started in the Enlightenment and it is just accelerating. What we are seeing is the rise of a new culture where the authoritarian religious systems that took hold oh about 10k years ago are in the process of being replaced by a different culture that relies on things like cooperation. By force modern religions will either evolve or die. In Western Europe we are seeing the leading edge of that, where religious attendance is at an all time low. It is also a place where a few scandals are not helping because of the cover ups.

So yes i get it why people of faith feel under attack. Their leaders do. And they are far from silent on this.

By the way a great read on this is the Chrysalis Effect, highly recommended.

Oh and like all births, we are in the midst of birth pains and all that.

[cleanhippie]

1. You may be right.

Interesting take on it. I tend to agree.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I highly recommend the book

It clarified a lot of this for me. I was on the way to that but it is a brilliant (DU'er recommended) read.

[cleanhippie]

4. I will put it on my list.

Just finishing The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan. Maybe this one will be next. Thanks.

[HereSince1628]

3. 10k years ago, which of the authoritarian religious systems existed?

Do we know from a global perspective, what religions were actually dominant back 10K BCE? Are they the same ones dominant today?

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Judaism was taking it's first tentative steps

That was the time where the Great Mother was replaced by Yahve, Ba'al and other male gods.

Yahveh did not take a singular monotheistic place for another five hundred years. Like our current evolution the process was slow.

It coincides with the rise of agriculture.

[HereSince1628]

7. I do think the social reorganization moving from nomadic to fixed place living

seems to echo in Genesis and in the Exodus/40 years of wandering.

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. (a) 10K years ago is not the same as 10K BCE

10,000 years ago is 8,000 BCE (OK, 7990 BCE to be precise)

(b) With written records only going back to about 3000 BCE, you really can't say what religions were active then. There are religious artifacts dating that far back, but they're not clearly linked to any existing religion (apart from something too all-encompassing to be of any use, such as 'goddess worship'). The oldest religious book still in notable use is probably the Hindu Rigveda, which dates to before 1000 BCE.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. I am sorry but ten centuries before the common

Era we had an oral tradition and writing started not much later.

Cuneiform and all that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. 10 centuries is not '10K'

K=kilo=1000, not 100

Yes, everyone has oral traditions, and they had them 10,000 years ago too. But the oldest writing (as opposed to pictures, or tallying marks) dates to the latter half of 4th millenium BCE. That's 5000 years ago, roughly, and no-one can say an oral tradition lasted accurately 5,000 years, including an accurate account of how many years have passed since something happened, and then it got written down in the world's earliest deciphered script. No-one was counting the years accurately, and it's far too easy for an oral tradition to say "that happened 960 years earlier" with no proof. Look at the ages given to Adam, Noah etc. in the Bible for an example of how meaningless counts of years are (and someone bothered writing them down at some time).

[dimbear]

11. Religious systems from that far back have no written records, of course.

Nevertheless there were some interesting ones. One of my favorites involved severing the heads of deceased tribal leaders and keeping them around the house, especially in the bedroom, often under the bed. The heads would be gaily decorated with pigments, probably treated with spices or salt for durability.

This system is known because it leaves obvious traces behind.

A little surprisingly, the heads tend often to be heads of females. Not all, tho. That time was before the days of the patriarchy.

Probably when questions would come up, the tribe would "go ask aunt Maude." And someone would soon be found to be especially good at interpreting her answers. And so it goes.

[Deep13]

6. marking for future reference nt

[Lost-in-FL]

12. Sounds like a great book.

Unfortunately, it is not on e-book format as of yet. I am really looking forward to this book. Sounds like a fantastic book.

[DeSwiss]

13. K&R

So yes i get it why people of faith feel under attack. Their leaders do. And they are far from silent on this.

...

Oh and like all births, we are in the midst of birth pains and all that.

Agreed. This is why I am not a subscriber to the idea that some amorphous middle ground can be found in order to achieve a false peace of mutual respect and acceptance of these opposing views.

Reason is diametrically opposed to faith. Reason requires proofs. Faith exists because of the absence of proof. Reason accepts change and will undergo modification based upon a greater understanding. Faith generally denies change and it seeks to remain fixed in its position of the immutability of its god.

Thus, just as no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time, neither can reason and faith.

- If these are birth pains, it must be a breech birth. Let us hope that we can all survive the delivery.