Why I don't believe in gods.

[Goblinmonger]

A. There is absolutely no evidence for one.
B. There is not need for one to explain anything. Let me explain through events yesterday that spurred this OP:

My daughter was in a car accident yesterday. She went about 40 miles away to an apple orchard and then was going to visit a nearby "gravity hill" (the perspective of the surroundings makes it seem like your car is rolling uphill). She was stopped on the highway to turn left and the driver in a car coming up behind her was not paying attention and hit my daughter's car at approximately 55mph. Her and her boyfriend were pushed about 100 yds. The car is totaled (OK, I don't have the "official" call on that yet, but it's totaled). Luckily, she is not dead. She is in a neck collar and needs to go to the neurologist tomorrow because there is some spacing between C4 & C5 and they need to make sure it is just a ligament sprain (no fractures on the CT). It was just a random string of random events that caused everything (OK, the guy not paying attention caused the accident but you know what I mean). Had my daughter not decided to be nice and stop in a long line to get her brother a caramel apple, she would never have been at the road at the same time as Mr. Inattentive. Had she turned her wheels to the left while she was stopped waiting for oncoming traffic, she would have pushed into that oncoming traffic. She had about 7 pumpkins in her trunk and had her back seats open to the trunk because she got some corn stalks, too. Had she not been a serious violin player, she would not have had the sturdy, metal music stand in her trunk that is mangled and likely stopped those 7 pumpkins from flying to the front of the car to do more damage to her and her boyfriend. If she had not been in a car that we purchased because of safety rating (to some extent), it is likely the very large pickup truck that hit her would have done more damage to her car and, relatedly, her. Sorry for rambling (this happened yesterday at 4 pm--I did not get to sleep until about 1:30 am and when I went to get her her favorite egg bagel sandwich this morning at Big Apple Bagels, I had to pull over and cried for about 10 minutes for the first time since the protection instinct kicked in) but it feels good to pour this out on the computer.

In short, neither her getting in the accident or surviving it needs a god to explain it. A whole bunch of circumstances came together to make it happen and to not make it worse for her health. To me, right now, it seems like a pretty good analogy for life. (And for those of you that file me in the evil atheist or asshole atheist in your head, when we were talking to our neighbors about it this morning and they said they would pray for my daughter tonight, I said "Thank you.")

[WillParkinson]

1. I feel your pain...

When I had the accident I had so many people tell me gawd or guardian angels were watching out for me. I politely said that I was more believing that Ford had just built my car very well.

I hope your daughter heals quickly and completely. My sympathies to your family. Gentle :hug: to you all.

[skepticscott]

2. If you were thinking more clearly

you'd see that this was all part of god's plan (including the egg bagel thingie). The subtlety is just more than non-believers can grasp with their horribly closed minds....

[Angry Dragon]

4. I hope that is sarcasm

If not then tell me how you know what god's plan is

[Goblinmonger]

6. It's sarcasm. I got it.

skeptic and I are all good.

[skepticscott]

19. Sorry about your daughter, btw

Hope she's back in good shape quickly.

[skepticscott]

7. God's plan was

that someone on this thread would wonder if I wasn't being ironic.

[handmade34]

3. I am very sorry your daughter

was in an accident... I send gentle thoughts your way and hope she recovers quickly.

((we do not need God or gods to explain what happens in life; though some still think they do. I am not concerned either way except when people who think they need God foist it upon the rest of us... gods were created at times when we didn't have science or greater understanding...))

[Ruby the Liberal]

5. I am sorry she and her BF are going through this.

:hug:

That said, who has ever said that God micro-manages our lives? Circumstances are part of life - they have nothing to do with the existence of God.

May she heal quickly and completely. :hug:

[Goblinmonger]

8. Plenty of people do.

Even the liberal Christian sects. We have friends who's daughter died in a car accident a couple years ago. There was plenty of talk about how God wanter her with him and that's why he "took" her.

Thanks for your thoughts. She seems to be doing well (actually wanted to keep her commitment to the local Dems to make calls this afternoon--that's where she is with her mom right now) but, obviously we are a little nervous about the MRI she will likely have tomorrow. She's taking the neck collar like a trooper.

[Ruby the Liberal]

13. Wow! You must be proud.

Good on her for continuing her volunteer commitment. We should all be so strong. :hug:

[Odin2005]

9. I hope your daughter recovers fast, Gob!

:hug:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

10. Sorry your daughter got hurt. Glad it wasn't worse.

You are right, we don't need a god to explain phenomena.

We have Newton's laws of motion for car wrecks and everything else that moves (in our observable world -- we can't really see the circumstances where Einstein's laws apply).

A theologian named Rudolf Bultmann said that the miracles and healings in the Babble could be explained by science. So, basically, miracles were put in to make Jesus look supernatural;

Pierre Simon LaPlace wrote a giant treatise called Celestial Mechanics between 1799 and 1825. He was showing Napoleon an orrery, which is one of those crankable models of the solar system and the planets you might have seen in grade school.

Napoleon said, "There is no God in it" and LaPlace replied that the system did not need a God.

Christopher Hitchens mentions this anecdote very briefly in one of his YouTube debates.

I don't think you're an evil atheist. I agree with you. And when people say they will pray for me, I say "Thank you" since they want to feel like they are doing something. If it makes them feel better to do so, I will not argue with them.

[Bitwit1234]

11. And I am beginning to think along the lines of an Atheist

I say to myself every day. If there is a God why does he allow people like Rush, Rove and the tea bags and fox and Palin to continue to sow the seeds of destruction of this country. Why does he load up the coffers of the super rich, like the Koch Brothers, Rove's America Prosperity Group and most of all the most evil doer in this country Cheney.

They scream and rant and rave about the fact that they are Christians and the whole darn group does everything they can to make the life of the average American as miserable as they can. All they really want is money and more money. They want politicians in office who will make and pass laws that benefit them and their corporations. They want to cut the meager benefits that the people in this country have come to fall back on so they can fill their own greedy pockets.

And you tell me there is a God looking out for this country. He can't be. Because if there was there wouldn't be any republicans and tea bags.

[Ruby the Liberal]

15. Thoughts on this

1. The love of money is the root of all evil

2. Jesus wept over the corruption

3. Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple

4. It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.

5. Jesus said, "what you do to the least of these, you do to me"

God isn't looking out for this country. God is weeping over what we have let it become. Greed has taken over and the "least of these" are the ones paying the price, sacrificed on the altar of greed.

[onager]

12. Best of luck to the kids. And thanks for your thoughts.

"...neither her getting in the accident or surviving it needs a god to explain it."

Exactly.

[trotsky]

14. Glad your daughter is not seriously hurt, GM.

My best to you & yours.

[HawkerHurricane]

16. How I think...

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
— Marcus Aurelius

[MikeH]

37. These seem to cover the possibilities

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
— Marcus Aurelius

For me it is an open question about the reality of God (or of gods), and about the reality of a life after this present life. I consider myself closest to being a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism">deist, and just on the believing side of agnostic, and I accept uncertainty about the matter. The above quote by Marcus Aurelius provides an excellent attitude to take toward life and living which takes such uncertainty into account.

I do not wish to take any definite position as to what reports of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience">near-death experiences might actually indicate (I myself have never had a near-death experience -- and I don't think it is wise to wish for such an experience! -- and I don't know of anybody I know personally having had such an experience); however it is interesting to note that in the reports of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_review">life reviews that sometimes accompany near-death experiences, as reported in books by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Moody">Raymond A. Moody and elsewhere, the reviews focus on the deeds a person has done, the motives of the deeds, and the effects of the deeds on others. A person's religion, religious beliefs, or theology do not matter at all. In one of Moody's books a former seminary student reports that during his NDE he came to see what a stuck-up ass he had been with all his theology, and his looking down on anyone who was not a member of his denomination or who didn't subscribe to the same theological beliefs that he did.

As to the possibility of God or the gods being unjust, I will say that the God as believed in by fundamentalist Christians and preached by people like Billy Graham, Pat Robertson and others, is most definitely unjust, and is really a despicable and arbitrary tyrant, and is not worthy of worship. This God sends people to hell for all eternity if they happen to miss out on "accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" in this lifetime, for whatever reason, or if they happen to guess wrong by adhering to a religion other than Christianity. And I think an "unsaved" murder victim, one who has not "accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior", is condemned to hell by this God, while if the murderer later "repents" and "accepts Christ", the murderer is let into heaven by this God.

And even if for myself and for purely selfish reasons (e.g. fire insurance, and hope of possible glory in the next life) I might accept the so-called "gift" of "salvation" offered by the fundamentalist Christian God (really the arbitrary favor of a tyrant), I could never accept having the thought in the back of my mind that others are either "saved" or "unsaved" (and condemned to hell for all eternity if they happen to die "unsaved"), and I could never accept the obligation to tell others about Christ or about their need to accept Christ motivated by that concern. I don't see how one can get any joy or enjoyment out of life or living if one has to worry about that. Again this God is arbitrary, unjust, and is a despicable tyrant, not worthy of worship, and certainly not one I want to tell others about.

Hi HawkerHurricane. :hi: I have met you at a couple of DU gatherings, a number of years ago now.

[ZombieHorde]

17. Yikes! I hope they both turn out OK in the long term. nt

[ejpoeta]

18. some people need that prayer. some people need that god in the sky.

not everyone does. does it make you a bad person? no. it is just a fact of life that we are all different. some feel better feeling that some benevolent god reached his or her hand down to save one person from being harmed. some people like to be helpful and feel that praying helps. it doesn't hurt, i don't think. it is their thing. it isn't everyones.

i had a car accident in 1997. i wasn't wearing a seatbelt. i was ejected and the car landed on me. if the ground were still frozen.... if there hadn't been a rock or something to keep the car from completely crushing me.... if someone hadn't been following behind me to see me on a section of road with no houses.... there were two trees and the car went in between them.... things could have been very different. i like to say that there were people looking out for me. but i need to feel that my mom is somewhere. i can accept that there is a possibility that i have to believe that because otherwise what's the point!

we all have those moments in our lives when chance leads us one way or another. what leaves one to walk away unscathed while another ends up dying? i live a quarter of a mile from where i had my accident. a few months ago three teenagers just down the road the other way hit a telephone pole and all died. what chance of fate spares one but takes another? some choose to explain it with a higher power. while others choose to accept it as a lucky or unlucky. just take a deep breath and BE thankful that you have tomorrow to say i love you and to be the best you can be. because we all have our date.higher power or no.

[PADemD]

20. Why didn't you post this in the Atheist/Agnostics group?

[Goblinmonger]

21. Because I didn't want to.

Because it deals with concepts of theology and religion.
Because it provides somewhat of a counter to the "Why I believe in God" thread (did you ask that person why they didn't post that in the appropriate religion group?).
Because there are people in here that I respect that are theists that don't go into A/A.

Sorry to piss on your parade. You didn't need to read it, though.
Are you one of the people that unrecd it? Not that I give a tinker's fart about recs but find it interesting that someone would go to the trouble of unrecing this OP.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeSwiss]

22. K&R n/t

[beam me up scottie]

23. Your daughter sounds like quite a young woman.

You must be so proud. I'll be thinking good thoughts and hoping that both make a full recovery.

Thank you for posting this, Gobby, it can't have been an easy decision. :hug:

[HarveyDarkey]

25. Physics explains it better than a god (or gods) do

best wishes to you and your daughter. Thank science for technology & medicine.

[cilla4progress]

26. An agnostic myself..

but I'm still going to say bless you and your daughter and her boyfriend (could be blessings of the universe, y'know). Wow - what a scare; relieved everyone is OK. Really enjoyed your post. Safe travels to all.

[struggle4progress]

27. Glad she's probably OK

[intaglio]

28. If Wishes work

Here's wishing your daughter, her family and you, well.

Be strong and come here when you need to weep. :hug:

[TZ]

29. glad she's okay

I've never gotten why random events happening seems to be so difficult a concept to grasp for so many. "Shit happens" to me sums up a hell of a lot of stuff....

[Jim__]

30. I'm glad your daughter wasn't seriously hurt. - n/t

[cleanhippie]

31. Aw, man! I am so sorry to hear this!

I hope the two of them recover quickly and painlessly.


I am also glad to see that you have not fallen into one of the simplest and dangerous traps our minds can play on us. Good job keep reality and sanity at the forefront.

Hang in there, man.

[raccoon]

32. Hope your daughter and her BF recover soon.

I have a problem with people saying things like God was watching out for me, etc.

Because that seems so--capricious. Why was God watching out for this person, and not that person?

[Goblinmonger]

33. Update

Went to the neurologist this morning and the neck brace is off! She has severe whiplash, will be in pain for a while yet, needs to to range-of-motion exercises, and probably won't be able to play violin for a week or so, but all should work out fine.

ETA: Her BF is fine, too. Pain and stiffness in the back but that should pass over time.

[Evoman]

34. Glad she's okay. As I mentioned before, I recently got hit by a car as well

It happened while I was crossing a street (the walk sign was on, but asshole turned left and crashed into me when I was almost at the middle of the boulevard).

I thought about the randomness and coincidences of that incident. Earlier in my walk, I stopped for about 3 or 4 minutes to give a homeless man money and talk with him. If I had been an asshole and just walked by, I wouldn't have been hit by a car.

I made an aggreement with my abusive boss to let me go from work a month earlier than my term because I couldn't take it anymore. If I hadn't quit, I would have been at work and I wouldn't have been hit.

I decided to make some life and career changes, and I was walking back from my career counseling appointment when I got hit. I'm trying to make a new life for myself, and was hoping to go in a direction where I could work at a job that I love and hopefully help other people. And I got hit by a car.

There is no good and no bad force out there watching me. The truth is, the accident had some very bad consequences (it gave me some ptsd and darkened my mood, to the point where I basically said fuck you to the world). I've recovered to some extent, and in a lot of ways I'm better....to tell you the truth, lately I've felt bulletproof...like I can do anything. I waver between these two types of feelings.

A random shitty thing happened to me. God neither caused my accident, nor helped me recover. God was not there, and god has never been there. God does not exist...and everything I've gone through makes perfect sense if you take him out of the equation.

[laconicsax]

35. But you do need a god to explain people digging a hole to free some trapped miners.

Saying otherwise is the height of religious intolerance.

[LAGC]

36. LOL, I stayed out of those miner threads because I couldn't stand the hypocrisy.

The religious types were taking things WAY too seriously, seeing "miracles" where sheer human perseverance was the only factor responsible. Nothing supernaturally "miraculous" saved those miners, the natural work and determination of MAN did.