How many people do you think are regular churchgoers, possibly church members, and even active in

[raccoon]

church, and really are closet atheists or agnostics?

I'm guessing at least 50%.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. why do you care?

[raccoon]

4. Why are you always picking on me? nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

6. just asking an honest question, is all.

[raccoon]

9. Here's why I care: because people who are non-believers are often viewed as

being "bad" people by those who believe, or pretend to.

They may not SAY it, but the looks they give you. As if they'd just found out that you were a mass murderer. As if you've got leprosy and they're afraid they'll catch it.

It's perfectly understandable that many people pretend to be believers when they're not. Because of social pressure.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

12. ok. I wonder

why do you care about these socially pressured people? Are you one of them?

Are you struggling with your own faith?

You strike me as a non-believer who is looking to antagonize people who differ from yourself. If you understand it then why are you questioning it?

I just really don't get it.

[raccoon]

22. Here's an example of why some people might pretend to be religious because of social pressure.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9664334

[cleanhippie]

21. racoon asked a question first.

why don't you answer his OP before adding questions of you own?

[Deep13]

16. I'm willing to stipulate that the OP does care.

Otherwise, he or she would not have asked.

[raccoon]

23. Yes. Because non-believers, or even non-fundies, are made to feel like

second-class citizens when among fundies.

[RKP5637]

2. Yeah, same here, about 50% or so. n/t

[MineralMan]

3. I have no idea. I don't really care.

An even better question, though, would be: How many members of the clergy are really atheists or agnostics?

Of course, they won't ever admit it publicly, but I suspect the percentage is substantial.

[raccoon]

5. Good point! nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

8. care to share a personal anecdote of this phenomenon?

Every minister I know of speaks of personal troubles of belief.

There is a prayer for that, actually:

Dear Lord,
I believe. Please help me with my unbelief.

[MineralMan]

10. Sure. During my late teens and early 20s, when I was transitioning to becoming a

strong atheist, I had discussions with a number of clergy. Notable was one with an RCC Bishop. I wasn't Catholic, but I discussed my transition with this man, after the minister of my church actually arranged the appointment. I will not disclose the Bishop's name. During our conversation, he admitted that he was not really sure that any deities really existed, but that he believed that the good that came from belief outweighed the distinct possibility that it was all a myth. I thanked him for his candor.

You might wonder why I bothered will all this. I actually ended up discussing the issue with a number of religious leaders. I had a book in mind, but never actually wrote it. This all started when the minister of my church told me that the church was willing to pay for a free ride at Wheaton College in Illinois if I would choose a career in the ministry. Since I was already on the road to atheism, I decided to explore the entire religion thing in a serious way.

That Bishop was not the only clergyman who equivocated about his actual belief. It was a very interesting period in my life.

[charlie]

11. Dan Dennett's interviews with 5 nonbelieving pastors

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/Non-Believing-Clergy.pdf
(PDF file, 105K)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

13. gotta admit, the job is none to demanding physically. Would be a good gig.

Can't say as I blame them.

[charlie]

14. Uh, no

They're not cynics. They feel trapped, conflicted, and lonely.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. I said PHYSICALLY undemanding and they can quit anytime they want

[charlie]

18. Heh

Good gig. Can't blame 'em. Right.

Yeah, they can quit anytime they want. Them and Mother Teresa.

[AlecBGreen]

19. that is a good question

though I disagree that the "percentage is substantial."

I would venture less than 10% SERIOUSLY question their faith (as opposed to moments of indecision & doubt). I would further guess that less than 1% is full-on atheist. Of course this is total speculation

[LiberalFighter]

7. Church attendance is below 41%.

I believe it was much much lower during pre-revolutionary through the Civil War era.

[AlecBGreen]

17. when you say closet agnostic

Do you mean those who will admit to feelings of doubt or confusion? I think that describes 99.9% of clergy. As our pastor said, "Anyone who claims to never had any doubt is a liar or a lunatic."

[raccoon]

20. I didn't mean anyone who will admit to those; I guess I meant someone who's closer to the atheist

stance than that.

You have a good point; any thinking clergy will have SOME doubts or points of confusion.

[Deep13]

24. Some, but no where near half. nt