A Poll for Atheists and non-believers only

[Speck Tater]

To celebrate receiving an anonymous donor start, a poll on my favorite contentious and controversial subject. :)

Which best applies to you?

[Mojambo]

1. I call myself an Apatheist and don't care if god exists. n/t

[EmeraldCityGrl]

8. I am so going to steal this.

:rofl:

[Merlot]

36. good one!

[DeSwiss]

41. ....

[toddaa]

2. Poorly worded

The agnostic and atheist positions are garbled. I do not believe in the existence of a god. I'm both agnostic and atheist, none of which are covered in this poorly worded poll, which is set up as a trap for both atheist and agnostics.

Nice try in trolling for militant fundamentalists, but I'll pass.

[MrModerate]

9. I think you're being a bit harsh on the OP, even though the labeling is not especially apt.

I take the agnostic/no god label to mean "I believe in a supernatural component to the universe but reject the notion of a Christianist supreme being."

And given that I know people who adopt that point of view (and about which I've learned not to snigger, lest I be considered boorish), I think it's possible that's what the OP had in mind.

[toddaa]

20. I am being harsh

I'm an atheist and agnostic. Your label is even worse with respect to the agnostic position. In the pop discourse, the word agnostic nothing more than something spewed out to bash atheists. I'm quite proud to call myself both, but agnostics who go out of their way to avoid being called atheists, tend to be nothing more than sanctimonious solipsists, who live in abject fear of being accused of having an opinion.

An agnostic holds the position that knowledge beyond the limits of human reason is untenable. It is the position of one who grasps their own finite limitations. On the other hand, those that chose to hold a position perpetual abeyance in the matter of the divine are mostly just obnoxious jerks.

It certainly is a philosophically well grounded position to be an agnostic without being an atheist, but in my experience those who take that position rarely use either word to describe themselves and are far more interesting to talk to than those who proudly cling to the notion that they are superior due to pure, unwaivering ignorance.

Yes, I am being deliberately harsh. But I can do that because I am a militant, dogmatic agnostic.

[MrModerate]

25. I could debate the benefits of being a militant agnostic . . .

And why you consider it necessary to combat those who have a softer definition of the term. But that's a discussion for another day.

I'll admit that in pop-speak, "agnostic" translates as "atheist-lite" and hence hardly means anything at all. However, your definition of agnostic seems to replace "unknowable" with "untenable," which is not the same thing. Outside of microtome-thin dissections of the subject where definitions begin to break down under excess examination, I think my definition of supernatural-(maybe)-but-no-god-(probably) more accurately captures the sense of the term.

Neither atheism nor agnosticism is subject to empirical proof, and while one can certainly have some fine-honed discussions on the topic, I consider it much more meaningful to consider how they affect one's life and daily practices. As in, "while I can't conclusively prove the nonexistence of god(s), it also doesn't really matter since there are demonstrably no godly impacts on my life." Or the "I don't care, I don't have to" maxim.

Militant agnosticism, though . . . what's the point?

[toddaa]

40. I am a militant

The word militant has been hurled at me as an insult so often that I've decided to embrace it. I'm a militant, dogmatic, absolutist fundamentalist. I'm also a hateful, strident, bigoted antitheist who knows nothing about any religion and should keep my ignorant, baseless opinions to myself, but can't because I'm an obnoxious atheist.

You're right, though. God(s) have no impact on my life. Except for the Morrighan. She kicks ass.

[MrModerate]

42. Well, I think I might want to have had my first beer *before* I sat down with you for a beer . . .

But one's passions are what defines a person, so more power to you.

(And yes, I had to look up "Morrighan".)

[toddaa]

43. Don't worry...

I'll get the next round.

[Speck Tater]

34. Good points. And harshness is some times well earned. :)

I myself have used the label "agnostic" to avoid taking a stand. But to be perfectly honest, while I am open to the possibility of the existence of some kind of god or another, I very strongly doubt it, so I would consider myself an atheist-leaning agnostic.

More than anything, I was curious to find out how self-proclaimed atheists use the word "atheist". That was my only real intention with the poll. I have no argument with any particular use of the word. My curiosity revolves around semantics, not theology.

[beam me up scottie]

19. GADZOOKS!!! toddaa!

How the hell are you? When did you come back? Geez, I missed your rants, I still have a couple of your greatest hits saved for inspiration.

Welcome back, I've missed you. :hug:

[toddaa]

24. i hate the internet

The thought of someone saving my drunken lunatic ravings does nothing more than pad my psychiatrist's bank account.

Misanthropy loves company. Why is that?

[beam me up scottie]

29. Aw, you're so sweet.

Just as I remembered. :evilgrin:

I can't stand humans yet I seek the company of others who can't stand me either.

We're one big really really dysfunctional family.

[mr blur]

91. + 1

[PDJane]

3. I don't believe in God.

I may believe in a lot of other things, but not in God as most humans perceive him. I simply cannot believe in a God made in man's image, nor can I believe in the Bible as holy and wholly writ.

[salvorhardin]

4. 2nd option but...

I'm an atheist and I think it's so incredibly unlikely that God exists as to render the question meaningless. However, the traditional Christian God is supernatural by definition and thus there's no way of ever knowing. Yet we can test certain religious claims (e.g. "God answers prayers") and of all those tested, none have shown any positive evidence.

[wallwriter]

5. Stunningly narrow-minded view...

of how a person might understand the source of creation, the spiritual qualities of humanity, the many attempts of human beings to understand their encounters with a sense of the Divine. God, god, gawd. Very limiting words when trying to establish understanding.

[MrModerate]

10. I take it you reject the practice of multiple choice tests entirely, then?

Including the necessary simplification that ensues?

[freshwest]

12. I won't answer the OP

But I wouldn't call it narrow-minded. More conventional, traditional or black and white.

Your answer encompasses concept that don't lend themselves to a poll, but I really, really liked it.

And I don't do polls, anyway. Too paranoid, ha ha.

[darkstar3]

6. I call myself an atheist, and your poll has no option for me.

All of your options speak of active belief. I'm hearing Admiral Ackbar in my head...

[Speck Tater]

22. "All of your options speak of active belief."

Options 2 and 4 call for NO beliefs one way or the other.

If you have NO beliefs about god, one way or the other then you admit of the possibility that God exists, and you admit to the possibility that god does not exist.

If you hold not active beliefs then options 2 and 4 apply to you.

[darkstar3]

23. Except that

2 and 4 are both characterized by the phrase "I believe". I don't.

[Speck Tater]

27. Point taken. Let's find a better set of options.

The point I'm trying to prove is that most people who call themselves atheists consider atheism to mean a positive belief in the non-existence of God, as opposed to it's "technically" true meaning, a lack of any belief one way or the other.

Clearly a poll won't prove anything to someone who disagrees with the methodology of the poll, so let's find a set of answers we can all agree on.

Perhaps we can leave the word "believe" out of the poll entirely:

As an atheist my position is:

1. God certainly does not exist.
2. God very probably does not exist.
3. God may or may not exist.
4. God probably does exist.
5. God certainly does exist.

Is that neutral enough wording?

[darkstar3]

31. That means the point you're trying to prove will fail.

"A positive belief in the non-existence of God" is a misconceived position. I see you have learned little since dropping your staunch agnostic moniker.

[Speck Tater]

35. O.K.

Then I should take this as a learning opportunity.

My intention is to learn the common understanding of the word "atheist". My specific question is: What does a self-proclaimed atheist mean when he/she uses the word "atheist."

Note that my question is not: What does the word atheist mean. I can answer that by looking in the dictionary. My question is what do atheists THINK it means.

My hypothesis is that most people who call themselves atheists take the stand that there is no God or gods of any kind. I.e., that is what the average atheist THINKS the word "atheist" means.

Instead of me putting words into your mouth, what is your stand? Suppose I use my hypothesis as one poll response and we use your hypothesis as the other poll response.

1. I call myself and atheist and I take the stand that there is no God or gods of any kind.
2. ______________________________________ (Fill in whatever wording your prefer here for your alternative)

And then we can add 3. None of the above (please explain), and see what happens.

[darkstar3]

38. You have already been told,

not just here but in other threads. The best descriptive phrase you can hope for is "I lack belief."

[Speck Tater]

45. What do we disagree about? I don't find anything, really.

I think part of the problem is that you and I appreciate some shades of meaning that many people simply gloss over. When you and I say "I lack belief in a god" we know exactly what we mean by that.

Unfortunately, many people, (and if my hypothesis is correct, most people) hear the statement "I have no belief in a god." and interpret it to mean "I do believe there is no god."

You know that's not a correct interpretation. I know that's not a correct interpretation. What I was trying to measure is what percentage of others make that incorrect interpretation.

Having discussed my intent, however, I've exposed my real motive and biased the likely outcome of any subsequent poll.

All I can say from the results so far is that 27/30 atheists, exactly 90%, take "atheist" to mean "I do believe there is no god." as opposed to the alternatives.

You know that strictly speaking that's an incorrect interpretation of the word, and I know that's an incorrect interpretation of the word, so what, exactly, are we disagreeing about? It seems to me that we are in perfect agreement about everything except the percentage of people who misconstrue the strict meaning of "atheist".

I believe that the vast majority of people misconstrue the word and, I assume, your position is that the word is not misconstrued by a vast majority. Am I stating your position correctly?

And going one step further, applying the linguistic principle that a word means what the majority of users of that word say it means, then the word "atheist" means, in common usage, something quite different from what you and I both know it means in the strictest sense.

Now what is it we disagree about?

As for my own "militant" use of the word "agnostic" in former times, I admit I was way too hung up on the semantics of the word. My previous arguments were based on the common usage definition of "atheist", not the strict definition. For the most part I'm finding those labels increasingly useless since so few people seem to really understand them anyway. Now I just call myself a Buddhist Atheist and let it go at that.

[darkstar3]

49. If you're actually going to treat an anonymous internet poll as evidence of any

hypothesis, then my original suspicion was correct: This was a trap. You wish merely to defend the mis-characterization of atheists as having an active religious belief. You wish merely to confirm the assumption that was completely clear in the options of your poll.

Oh, and your linguistic principle is crap. Theory does not mean "idea." And it is your dogged pursuit of this linguistic principle that we disagree upon. I care for accuracy, not mass stupidity, and I am therefore uninterested in how many people on this planet abuse the only communication tool we have.

[Speck Tater]

51. Then I suppose we should simply agree to disagree and leave it at that. :) nt

[PassingFair]

76. FAIL

You cannot prove what isn't true.

All the atheists I know personally, myself
included would circle your number "2" if they HAD to choose one.

And you have still failed to define "God". (Supernatural intercessor?)

FAIL

[beam me up scottie]

26. Your boxes are too small and too few.

I would chalk it up to ignorance but since you just tried to stuff an atheist into two of them, I believe you're just not an it-getter.

[Speck Tater]

32. Granted.

What I was most curious about is how atheists themselves characterize their beliefs or lack thereof. My contention was that most atheists use the word atheist to mean a strong belief in the non-existence of god or gods as opposed to the lack of any beliefs one way or the other regarding god or gods.

The poll seems to support my thesis, but it may also be because the options were poorly worded. I'll work on the wording and maybe do another poll in a few days when this one sinks out of sight.

[beam me up scottie]

44. Never mind, I shouldn't have bothered.

I haven't been here for a while and didn't realize this was a chronic case of willful ignorance.

Been there, done this, paid my dues in this arena.

[Speck Tater]

48. Umm.. Willful ignorance?

Could you elaborate?

I though I had very politely explained what I was trying to measure with the poll. How is that willful ignorance?

I am truly confused.

Question: How to people who call themselves "atheists" use the word "atheist"? What do they take that word to mean?

Is that not a legitimate question?

Is it willfully ignorant of me to ask that question?

I'm so confused. :(

[cleanhippie]

77. If you are truly confused...

then confused you will stay.

[cleanhippie]

64. Every option states "I believe..."

There is no option for no belief at all.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

7. I think your poll is flawed. None of those apply to this atheist

Perhaps the 2nd option comes closest, but it doesn't do a good job of describing my position on the subject (which is that I completely LACK a position on the subject).

I simply lack any belief in a deity or higher power. I don't rule out the possibility, but until there's evidence for the existence of a deity, I am simply without belief. That is NOT the same as actively believing that there isn't a god. And no, I'm not an agnostic.

[KaoriMitsubishi]

11. What he said ^ ^ ^

I didn't respond to the poll because as worded it is invalid. An atheist who whould define herself as "one who doesn't believe is a diety" hasn't really given much thought to the matter.

[BlueJazz]

13. I've never seen anything to cause me to believe there is some type of higher power....

...other than multiple dimensions.

[RKP5637]

14. +1, n/t

[ZombieHorde]

15. I voted for the second option.

There could be gods, or weretoasters, or a decent country song, but I fucking doubt it.

[Nihil]

92. Thank you for the laugh!

> There could be gods, or weretoasters, or a decent country song, but I fucking doubt it.

After flipping through the usual bickering on the thread, your reply was a true
breath of fresh air!


:toast:

[Goblinmonger]

16. Seems like you got just the response

we said you would get from atheists. That your definition does not fit our circumstance.

[Speck Tater]

46. Exactly the results I expected.

My claim was that people who called themselves atheists believe that there is no god, even though that is not strictly what "atheist" means. In fact it's now 30/33 = 91% of atheists interpret the word to be belief in no god. Just as I predicted it would be.

[beam me up scottie]

50. With polls, predictions and results like that you should work for Faux Noos.

Trolling for excuses to justify continued use of an inaccurate and insulting definition.

Nice.

[Speck Tater]

52. This really is pointless, isn't it? When we can't even agree on the definition of basic terms

or even on a means of defining "definition" then we really have nothing to talk about, do we?

[beam me up scottie]

53. Pointless for the atheists who thought you would actually listen to them, you mean?

Indeed.

[cleanhippie]

66. Dude, YOU FAILED TO INCLUDE THE OPTION WE ARE DEBATING!

How can your "poll" be accurate in any way when you failed to at least include the definition that you initially disputed?

[Speck Tater]

67. Which defintion was that?

[cleanhippie]

72. Seriously?

I'm done with you. You are just playing games.

[Goblinmonger]

55. Wow. Poll taking. You're doing it wrong.

You give crappy options. And when forced to pick one of your options, some did. And you decide to completely ignore what the people are actually saying about how they define their atheism in the discussion and how they tell you that you are giving poor options. The discussion is exactly what was said in the other thread: that it is about a lack of belief in gods and not a belief that god doesn't exist.

But, hey, go ahead and stick with the numbers from you poll which was poorly constructed and ignore what people are actually saying.

[Speck Tater]

68. For perhaps the fourth or fifth time...

I will ask for help and suggestions in selecting a better set of options for a poll.

My goal is to discover the truth about how atheists define themselves, regardless of whether that is in line with my preconceived notions or not. If I'm proven wrong then so be it. It's only the truth that matters.

If you think I'm doing the poll wrong then please, make some constructive suggestions about how to improve the poll. I'm all ears.

What options would you use?

[Goblinmonger]

74. But you were given the option in the other thread

Almost everyone said some version of "a lack of belief in any god." Why didn't you put that option in your poll? Some might say it was because it doesn't prove your point.

[Goblinmonger]

61. In my poll, 100% of theists are unsure about their belief.

Interesting results to be sure!

[cleanhippie]

65. You could not be MORE wrong

Your answer choices are invalid. All of them. Every choice is based on "I believe..." even though you have been told hundreds of times that atheists have NO belief. Where is the choice for no belief?

[wtmusic]

17. When you define God I'll have a good answer for you. nt

[lob1]

18. I think it's strange to place a poll about atheists in

the religious section. Ironic but not right.

[beam me up scottie]

21. Why, exactly, is it "not right"?

[Speck Tater]

28. Atheism is one pole of a specturm of religious beliefs or the lack thereof.

It seems a perfectly appropriate place to me.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

30. Are atheists unwelcome in religious discussion?

Are our opinions not valid?

I think you may misunderstand what the religion forum is all about. It's NOT an echo chamber, but instead is a place to discuss, debate, and even argue on the topic of religion and religious philosophy. The place you're looking for is probably here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=291.

[WolverineDG]

56. Especially since Atheists insist Atheism is not a religion

If it wasn't, then why post here?


dg

[trotsky]

58. Because if it's posted anywhere else, it will be moved here.

This is the forum where all threads on religion, theology, or atheism are supposed to go.

I understand if you wish atheists would just shut up and keep to themselves, however, so you can continue to enjoy the believer's privilege you take for granted in the real world.

[WolverineDG]

59. Atheism has its own group on DU

I don't wish for you to shut up & keep to yourselves, but I would like to see you give those of us who believe in God the same respect you demand we give to you. Despite all the claims to the contrary, I've yet to see a post that is as insulting of atheism as many posts by atheists about those who believe in God, especially those who are Christians.

dg

[trotsky]

60. A group, yes. As do believers of all stripes.

This is a forum, where differing viewpoints are allowed. Sorry that bothers you, and that you think criticism of certain religious beliefs is a personal attack.

If you only want to read posts that praise your religion and all believers, then you can go to one of your groups.

If you're here, you might just read something that you don't agree with. If you think it crosses the line to a broad-brush or personal attack, please feel free to use DU's alert feature and if the moderators agree, the post you find offensive will be deleted.

[cleanhippie]

79. Please point to those posts.

Can you show specific example of what you are talking about?

[WolverineDG]

90. It's quite common

Any post that states those who believe in God are stupid, dumb, believe in fairy tales, invisible sky daddies.....take your pick. Those posts aren't meant to "rationally" discuss differences of opinion. They are intended to be insulting, condescending, & demeaning.

dg

[darkstar3]

89. Sounds like a persecution complex in action.

Tell me, where ARE these insulting posts? Surely you can point to one. I can certainly point to posts that have been insulting to atheists. At least one is posted here every day.

[no_hypocrisy]

33. I'm a humanist and I'm also an atheist and go regularly to ethical culture.

[nevergiveup]

37. I haven't been to a regular church service in 40 years,

I seldom pray and super religious people of any faith give me the chills but I do see God when watching a beautiful sunset. I don't reckon I fit into any category. That is all.

[boobooday]

39. Militant agnostic n/t

[elocs]

47. I don't "call" myself anything. I am what I am without explanation.

Cannot someone simply "be" without the need to label, define, or otherwise pigeonhole them?

[applegrove]

54. I call myself and agnostic and believe something started time and space but don't know

how it would manifest itself.

[trotsky]

57. Terrible poll.

To start with, which god are you referring to?

[Speck Tater]

70. Ah, that's the rub, isn't it?

I suppose since it is the atheist's point of view I'm interested in the question probably means "god" in then most general and generic sense as applying to any kind of supernatural being or spirit or entity, however that might be characterized.

[trotsky]

73. That doesn't help.

And the reason why is, anytime anyone actually tries to nail down a descriptive or useful definition of "god," it becomes easy to evaluate its existence. Instead, it has to be protected by having a very nebulous definition such as the one you offer. "Any kind of supernatural being or spirit or entity" - so it doesn't have to be all-powerful or all-knowing or responsible for the creation of the universe? Pretty limited "god" you have there.

[Amaya]

62. militant non-theist

:evilgrin:

[cleanhippie]

63. Poor choices. And you FAILED to include the definition that you questioned to begin with.

Every choice states that there is a BELIEF of some kind. Atheists have a LACK of belief, so all of your choices are incorrect.


I don't know what your angle on this was (I have my suspicions) but this could not be MORE disingenuous.

[Speck Tater]

69. Please give me the list of options you would use.

If the poll is flawed then let's work together to fix it to everyone's satisfaction.

My goal is to find out how atheists define the word "atheist". Nothing more, nothing less. I have my preconceived notion of what the results will be, but if I'm wrong, then so what? I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, nor the last.

If you would like to help discover the truth, then pitch in and give me a list of options you think would be better. This does not have to be an adversarial process.

[cleanhippie]

71. Have you completely forgotten the thread from yesterday?

We discussed this, ad nauseum, yesterday. Why are you ignoring that?

Besides, in this thread alone, you have been told, AGAIN. I sense willful ignorance at work here, or just plain old disingenuousness. (Is that a word?)

You are making it very difficult to take you seriously anymore.

[Speck Tater]

80. Whatever.

So just out of curiosity, how many more times are you going to post "Worst poll ever" over and over?

If you don't want to work cooperatively on a better poll I can accept that. To tell the truth my simple question has been so overburdened with other people's personal agenda items I really don't care any more. I've already wasted too much time on this, and if I can't elicit any cooperation whatsoever from anyone then forget it. I'm done with the whole issue.

[cleanhippie]

83. Hahaha! I nailed it.

Disingenuous.

[PassingFair]

75. I call myself an atheist and I have no belief that any "god" exists.

If one gets all up in my face, I'll change
my opinion.

[cleanhippie]

78. WORST. POLL. EVER.

After all the dialogue, you still made all your choices start with "I believe...".

Atheism is a LACK of belief. It was discussed ad nauseum. It was the answer YOU were disputing to begin with. Where is THAT choice?


It seems obvious at this point that you are just playing games and have no interest in having anything close to meaningful dialogue. I think disingenuous is the word.

[Speck Tater]

81. I'm not your enemy. I don't understand your hostitily.

If you don't like the poll why have you refused my repeated invitations to help make it a better, more meaningful poll?

This doesn't have to be an adversarial situation.

[cleanhippie]

82. I am not hostile, I am frustrated with your wilfull ignorance.

In the post you just responded to, I GAVE YOU THE ANSWER THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN INCLUDED! Yet, you STILL ignore that it has been given to you.

If you want an honest poll, there needs to be only 2 choices...

For self-identified atheists:
A: I believe there is no god
B: I do not believe there is a god


Thats it, nothing more. There either IS or there IS NOT a belief. What is so hard to understand about this?

Post that poll, if you dare.

[Speck Tater]

85. That's a good set of choices.

The only problem I see is that a fairly significant number of people re going to argue, incorrectly, that the two options mean the same thing. I had that argument over and over again with my freshman students in logic. Some people just don't seem to understand the distinction.

But it will be interesting to see how the answers short out. I will post the poll.

[PassingFair]

86. But, but, but...that wouldn't "prove" his "point"!

"The point I'm trying to prove is that most people who call themselves atheists consider atheism to mean a positive belief in the non-existence of God, as opposed to it's "technically" true meaning, a lack of any belief one way or the other."


:rofl:

[cleanhippie]

84. If you want an honest poll...

If you want an honest poll, there needs to be only 2 choices...

For self-identified atheists:
A: I believe there is no god
B: I do not believe there is a god


Thats it, nothing more. There either IS or there IS NOT a belief.

[Speck Tater]

87. Poll posted

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x267708

[Silent3]

88. I have to join with the others saying this is a bad poll

First of all, as others have asked, atheist or agnostic, belief or disbelief regarding which meaning of God?

If we take a very broad definition of God as "A powerful, perhaps omnipotent entity possessing a 'personality' of some sort, not merely an unconscious, unaware natural force, which created the entire universe", even leaving out many other common godly attributes, such as concern for humanity, ultimate arbiter of morality and justice, etc., I strongly doubt, but do not categorically, absolutely rule out, that such a being exists.

I doubt, but do not categorically rule out, that the existence of such a being is knowable. Even if the existence of this being is knowable, that knowledge is probably well beyond us currently.

That makes both poll choices 2 and 4 most semantically true, with 1 and 2 also being true if "believe" is taken to mean "strongly consider as likely".