Open letter to Christians, signed Taverner the Walrus

[Taverner]

Dear Christian DU'ers,

Hi there. We cross paths every so often, and I try to mind my p's and q's as you guys do too. Not a problem there.

I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about us Atheist/Agnostics and Christians.

I realize the fact that you are here, on DU, means that you have high ethical standards. Most progressives, liberals and socialists have high ethical standards. The fact that you are here on DU also means you are no idiots. You want to see the data as much as me, if someone says something that seemingly goes against reason. I used to be a Christian, and a Methodist Christian at that. Methodists tend to place value on ethics as well as morality, and are also not averse to reason.

So I don't think you guys are all Fundies, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, and RaptureReady. Chances are, none of you folks go to those forums of ignorance. Mind if I call them that?

Thing is, I don't agree with Dawkins when he says we should 'sell Atheism.' Sure, he doesn't say that outright, but he wants to rid the world of religion. Good luck!

You see, my 'belief' does not have an afterlife. There is no heaven or hell. There is no karma, no kismet - no automatic result from behaving unethical. We seek to be good for, well, goodness' sake. Be good because it would really suck to have to life in a world of assholes. And if you act like a dick, chances are the rest of the world will be a dick right back at you.

So naturally, there is no drive for me to convert any of you to atheism, agnosticism or non-theism. I don't get points, the world is not inherently a better place and nothing goes better with coke as a result of a Christian becoming an Atheist.

I don't think of all churches as ponzi schemes selling an invisible product. Hell, my brother is a Minister, and I am proud of him. How can I, an Atheist, be proud? Because he is a minister. He ministers to other people, read as supports his parishioners when they are dealing with grief, loss and heartache. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and there's nothing wrong with many Christians.

As far as I am concerned, I do like the Atheist Billboards, in the same way I like seeing Oregon State Beaver stickers on the backs of cars. They're my 'team' if you will. Christians should not take it as an affront, but instead celebrate it as tile in the mosaic of diversity that is our country.

OK - given that I do think there are some things we can agree on.

- The Pentecostals are making that shit up. You know what I'm talking about. Speaking in Tongues. I have no doubt that you can psyche yourself into a fervor that has you bleating like a sheep, barking like a dog or anything really. It makes Christianity look bad, it makes America look bad and it makes Pentecostals look bad. Consider that one of these clowns almost became VP of this country. Look, I could whip up a group of people into any kind of frenzy I wanted, given the right environment. That's human psychology.

- Happy Holidays does not mean we hate Christmas. Look, I love Christmas. I have pleasant memories as a kid waking up and looking under the tree on Christmas morn. I have a Christmas tree myself, and wish to impart this tradition to my children because it's FUN. I told my son that Santa Claus doesn't exist, but we pretend he does because it's FUN. Kids aren't stupid they get it. So when we say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" it is because many people celebrate around December. Saturnalia and all that. I also like to say "Eo Saturnalia!" and "Happy Life Day" in case the pagan or Jedi passes by. It's called 'manners.' Same reason you don't eat off your plate like a dog.

- Capitalism is not compatible with Christianity. Read Acts and you'll see what I mean. Read the parable of the rich man and the camel and the eye of the needle. In fact, let's focus on that story, or slogan, rather. It is easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to go to heaven. The 'eye of the needle' actually refers to an actual place, the entryway to Roman-era Jerusalem. When traders came in, they would have their camels weighed down with plenty of goods, but the entry was too small to let a camel fully loaded in, so the trader has to unpack the camel, then take the stuff in. Jesus isn't calling you to be ascetic. He is calling you to remove your attachments. IE, "Don't cling so hard to your possessions, For you have nothing, if you have no rights." That's the Internationale, the hymn of Socialists and Communists.


Anyway - I've lost track of what I'm really trying to say. But basically, Atheists, Christians on DU - we're not that different really. And I do think Dawkins hit the nail on the head when he said "we are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

Peace out,

Happy Life Day,

Taverner the Walrus.

[baldguy]

1. I thought the walrus was Paul?

"If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we've got to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that he commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it." ~ Stephen Colbert

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x49668

[Taverner]

2. Nah, Paul is the other Walrus. I'm the one with the teeth.

And I bite!

Rar!

[Jokinomx]

3. Well stated :-)

I can't disagree with you at all. I once worked with a devout Morman. One day he came up to me and asked "So, if you don't believe in God, why don't you just rape, pillage and steal?" He was serious! First, I had never actually told him I didn't believe in God...that was his perception because I had stated I just wasn't smart enough to say if there was a God. Anyway...I just told him "Because, it's wrong."



Peace

:toast:

[Taverner]

5. Mormons need to learn that we Atheists have great families too

I love both my kids and want them to have every opportunity available - - just like Mormon families.

[skepticscott]

9. Yes, but atheist families are not

nearly so well-groomed.

[Taverner]

10. Speak for yourself!

Granted, I have a goatee, 6 day growth and a coffee stain the size of a quarter, but...um...speak for yourself!

[rhett o rick]

4. What a crazy OP. But I agree with all (i think), esp with the Oregon Beavers.

Great post.

[jwirr]

6. Thank you, I agree with all you say and I am a Christian who belongs

to one of those liberal churches. I usually avoid this topic but you did it so nice. Made me feel good since DU is my home and I like to think we all care about each other.

[AlecBGreen]

7. well said

Happy Festivus! :toast:

[AlecBGreen]

8. p.s.

Jacquizz Rodgers is a freak of nature

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. Can't argue with anything you said

:-)

says this Christian Democratic Socialist.

[Taverner]

12. Christian Democratic Socialism is a major force in European politics

Something that needs to build here, I'm convinced.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. I attend a small Democratic Socialist group occasionally

Most (not all) of the members identify with a religion.

[tiny elvis]

14. that eye of the needle history is modern (last 500 years) apocrypha

made to accommodate baptised rich people
http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm
this particular corruption of scripture seems especially popular in america these last twenty years
there is no getting the camel through the needle
pat robertson is going to hell, as is miley cyrus

[Taverner]

17. Interesting - that's a keeper

[dimbear]

15. Capitalism is not compatible with Christianity? Hmmm....

It's true there are terrible remarks about rich people in the gospels, and they perhaps reflect a transient early attitude, vestiges of a brief disdain, but the church quickly got over any cavils about rich people. The rich play an important part in all the history of the developing church and never seem to be scorned in any way after Jesus's ministry, continuously up until today.

The capitalist attitude is illustrated in the Parable of the Talent. One of the recipients was not good with money, he took the talent he had on lend and buried it. For not investing it, he was severely punished. That is capitalism going on right there!

Reading Christian history one very often comes across references to wealthy donors, patrons, protectors, and so on. In fact Paul himself probably owed much of his prominence to his own high social status, the fruit of the money that bought him that education in the best current schools. Paul wasn't averse to starting a small business when the time was right. Start your own long list of VIPs with Joseph of Arimethea and so on and so on.

That scorn of the rich that (conjecturally) intruded on the early days (if it ever really did) just couldn't last. Especially since it scraped so hard against the prevailing attitudes of the 1st century Mediterranean world and 21st century America, where having money was judged as indicating the approval of the divine.

It's another evolutionary thing. There were two opinions, one pro one con, and the pro rich people just naturally won out and did so rapidly. More or less point blank. (Although there are traces of the other which last into the 4th century.) Reference: Ebionites.

[Taverner]

16. Perhaps, but Early Christianity was a "give all your money away" cult at first

It took 100 years before the early Christians started living lives outside the cult...granted, most of Christianity's history past that point is pure capitalist apologism, but if you want to get a picture of what the Early Christians were like, look to the Hare Krishnas.

[dimbear]

19. It depends on how seriously you take the stories in Acts.

At any rate, an impractical experiment that didn't last long.

BTW, when I try to visualize a present day analog of the early Christians, I think of the Orthodox Jews. Hare Krishnas is an enjoyable image, tho......... good one!

It's a fascinating and very hot currently topic of investigation in the theological world. Alpha Christianity is the buzz word. Beta Christianity would be what survived....


:)

[Taverner]

20. True - and also consider God himself comes across as a pompous ass in Acts

Killing folks who don't give enough, etc...

[AlecBGreen]

21. Is this what you are referring to?

32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), 37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.

1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

[Taverner]

22. Yep

Sure Ananias might have been treacherous, but come on! Death penalty for lying? Harsh.

[AlecBGreen]

23. hey at least he died peacefully

the FSM would have choked him with a noodle or boiled him in marinara sauce.

Dont get me started on Lord Vader. He finds a lack of faith... disturbing. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p4T7_XI7WM )

[jeepnstein]

24. It was the lying that got them in a jam.

They lied to the church about their intentions and chose to profit from this lie. That is still happening today in many circles. It's not so much the amount of the gift as it is they misrepresented what they were doing with it.

If you look at the damage men and their greed have inflicted upon the Church it's easy to see why this account was included in Acts.

[DeSwiss]

18. Very good. n/t