I have a question.

[StudentOfDarrow]

The Jewish holy book is the Old Testament, correct? And the Old Testament is the one that contains the Leviticus and the Deuteronomy and the really oppresive stuff. So why is it that Christians, who supposedly follow the more liberal New Testament, are extremely more likely to be conservative than Jews? Can any Christian or Jewish DUers help me out here?

I REALLY hope I don't offend anyone here.

[JuniperLea]

1. Very good question

The Old Testament is also the place where God gives the Jews laws on what to eat and what not to eat, and the place where the religious right wingers nab the passages about "man lying down with man". Personally, I think you either have to follow the whole thing or don't bastardize it by cherry-picking. Or... live a good life and don't worry about it.

I think human beings have bastardized religion so much and used it to keep people in fear for so long, it would be very hard to pull the truth out now.

[Az]

2. Not religious but here is my take on it

The Rabbi's I have known seem to follow a tradition of questioning what is in the Torah. They probe the work and consider it from multiple angles. The notion of simply accepting it as written is not their tradition. The Talmud is the collection of Rabbinical thoughts on their faith. It is interpretation and as such is more dynamic and alive than the fundamentalist Christians can sometimes be.

On edit: Grammar correction.

[melissinha]

7. thats what I think

Don't know much about Judaism but you put it well, its about interpretation. In Christian fundamentalism it seems to be about judgment and steadfast adherence to few interpretations.

Besides the neo-con cabal is using these people to get elected. Do you actually think they actually adhere to fundamentalist thinking?

[H2O Man]

3. Easy answer.

Jewish folks and Christians, and for that matter Muslims as well, are all people who belong to families, who belong to extended families, that are the building blocks of communities, which make up cultures.

In almost all families, some people are relaxed, others are anxious, and some are hyper. A few might be combinations. Likewise, some will be tall, some short, some medium, and a few extra medium.

To top that off, some are liberal, some conservative, and most are a combination of each, both at every instance in their lives, and especially over time.

It might seem to you that one group is one way, while another is another way. But that is an error in perception. People are people. Always have been, are now, and always will be.

[StudentOfDarrow]

8. I never said that ALL Jews are liberal,

or that ALL Christians are conservative. I did say that Jews are more likely than Christians to be liberal, and that is a fact.

[H2O Man]

11. Nor did I say

that you said that. I was addressing the error in perceptiuon that Christians are more likely to be conservative, and Jews liberal.

[StudentOfDarrow]

12. You said that I thought that "one group is one way,

while another is another way." That seems to imply that I think all Jews are liberal and all Christians conservative.

And it is no error in perception that Christians are more likely to be conservative than Jews. Exit polls show that approximately 56.6666% of Christians voted for Bush, while 74% of Jews voted for Kerry. That is a MASSIVE difference.

[H2O Man]

14. No, not really.

It is simply an exit poll of people who vote in one particular election, in one country. A person can interpret it to mean any number of MASSIVE things, or they can put it into a proper perspective.

[StudentOfDarrow]

15. Jews have voted Democratic for a long time.

Christians have voted to the right of Jews for a long time. Do you really believe otherwise? It is VERY reasonable to infer that Jews are more liberal.

Here's a step by step logical process:

1. Jews, in overwhelming majorities, vote for candidates that are more liberal than the candidates that most Christians vote for.

2. Therefore, again speaking in general terms, Jews support more liberal policies than Christians do.

3. The political policies of Jews tend to be more liberal than those of Christians.

4. Jews are more liberal than Christians.

It makes perfect sense.

[H2O Man]

16. It's funny

that you ask a question that you then answer. However, again, you are speaking of a minority -- voters -- and use what you believe to be party registration as your measure. Again, this is an error in perception. I do not say that as a knock at you. But I do say it in hopes that you will consider viewing things in a larger picture.

[StudentOfDarrow]

18. You are saying that I shouldn't only look at voters when

trying to find out how a certain group of people vote? I don't see how that works out.

[H2O Man]

25. Actually you did not

say a single word about how people vote in your original post. Rather, it was after I pointed out an error in perception that you attempted to support your stance with an example of what you believe is a fair indicator of liberalism -- that being a single example of an exit poll in one election. Hence, I don't think it would be accurate to say that your intention was to determine "how a certain group of people vote."

[StudentOfDarrow]

28. In the original post, I stated

that Jews are generally more liberal than Christians. You then seemed to take issue with that. I replied with an example of votes cast by Christians and Jews in the last presidential election. It is reasonable to say that people who voted for Kerry are generally more liberal than those who voted for Bush. Thus, it follows that Jews are more likely to be liberal than Christians, proving my original post correct.

[H2O Man]

29. You're being silly.

Anyone can read your OP, read the recent twists, and see the difference.

[StudentOfDarrow]

30. And I feel that you're being silly.

My original message stated that Christians are "more likely to be conservative" than Jews. You interpreted that as saying that all Christians are conservative and all Jews liberal. I provided information about the way Jews vote as opposed to Christians. You appear to think that the way people vote is not connected with their political beliefs. Basically, this whole debate has been me stating that Jews are generally more liberal than Christians, and you refuting that.

[StudentOfDarrow]

31. You know what, why don't we stop this debate?

Neither of us are change the other's mind. This is just a waste of time.

[Kire]

34. proving it?

I thought you were asking a question, not making an argument.

You "REALLY hope" you don't offend anyone, but you are subjecting us to an inquisition reminiscent of the 16th century.

[Dorian Gray]

22. I also believe that

many of the Jews that vote liberally are secular, for the most part. I would venture to guess that those who are more religous care very little about our election process in the USA.

[H2O Man]

26. Correct.

For this discussion to take on any value in having the potential to lend insight to those sincerely asking such questions as posed in the OP, we need to put the narrow definition of "religion" in the background, and move towards an examination of the foundation of social character within specific groups in our culture.

[dflprincess]

4. I can't help you out but I have long wondered why

the more conservative the Christian, the more apt they are to quote the Old Testament (though only those parts that they think will back a particular political position) and never mention anything Jesus said.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. Note that they never quote the prophets, who rail against

unjust rulers and rich people who oppress the poor. :-)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

5. One of the writers

the the New Testament is St. Paul. He wrote most of the epistles. And he was a man of his times... rather misanthropic with a lot of does and don't (as in women should cover their hair, men are the head of the family, etc.)

Fundamentalists take him at his word on many of these issues.

I have never paid much attention to him, although he had a way with words "for example.."Now I see through a mirror, darkly."

The actual words of Christ are practically zen koans and open to a lot of different interpretations.

[methinks2]

6. good observation

As a christian, I see the Old Testament as the original 10 rules, with many addendums added by various old politicians. I also see the New T. as the clarification of the original 10 rules. If you read what JC really said and did, you will realize that being a Christian is to be non-violent in your actions. It is also to be forgiving and caring and helpful to others. The beautitudes sums up the right attitudes. Of course the fundies are people who just like to control others with rules. If they don't like the rules that exist, they add to them with addendums. Remember that Jesus was a Jew. Being brought up in that religion he knew the shortcomings and tried to clarify and change the parts that were perverted by greedy men and politicians.

[Inland]

9. The debate in the early church

was whether christians were jews, that is, whether christians had to follow the dietary, ritual cleanliness, etc. laws of Moses et al. St. Paul, a Hellenized jew, argued that christians can bypass all the law, go straight to Christianity. It was a vision of Christianity as a supranational religion.

I think you can find Paul's ideas in the Epistles to the Galatians.

[Big Kahuna]

10. My opinion

Again, this is just the opinion of an outsider to both faiths.

I think Jews have a truely ancient culture, and have a more mature view of the old testament, and are pragmatic about the realities of life.

The Catholic church has been around for a long time also, and while the church can be quite rigid on certain subjects, my experience has been that Catholics as individuals are quite often very leftist on issues of nonviolence and social justice.

But most of the Protestant religions have been around for a comparatively short ammount of time. We are still in the process of watching their good and bad ideas being subject to natural selection.

[StudentOfDarrow]

13. Thank you.

This is probably the best explanation I've seen yet.

[daninthemoon]

17. The religious right in this country does not represent all.

[StudentOfDarrow]

19. No, it does not.

But most Christians, though not as frenzied as the religious right, vote Republican anyway, and are certainly to the right of Jews. This thread is about the voting difference between Jews and Christians.

[daninthemoon]

20. Christianity in America has been hijacked. Methodist and other

mainstream Churches are mostly empty now, while Baptist and Fundamentalist TV churches are popping at the seems. They don't represent my faith, however. I voted repug once. I was young and foolish, and voted for raygun his first term. I repented, though. I learned. There is still hope.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. Two reasons that the fundies are growing faster than the mainstream:

1) Natural increase. Mainstream churches are friendly to singles, childless people, and GLBT people, while fundie churches practically require everyone to marry and have children. Once the children are born, the fundies devote intense efforts to keeping them in the fold, even to the point of creating a total information environment for them.

The mainstream churches don't have as many children in the first place, and until about ten years ago, they acted as if it was still the 1950s, when you had to attend church to be socially acceptable, and that young people would just naturally grow up in the faith even if you made no special efforts to attract them.

However, mainstream churches get a lot of "refugees" from fundamentalism. There are so many converts in the Episcopal Church that people who were born into Episcopal families and stuck with it are referred to as "cradle Episcopalians" and considered rare birds.

2) The fundamentalists tell typical, middle-class conforming Americans what they want to hear: that as long as they "accept Christ," they're fine just as they are in all their mindlessness and consumerism. It's all about them. (A satirical piece on being a minister once advised ministers to choose only hims that mentioned "I" and "me" a lot.) If you "accept Christ," you'll get all sorts of material goodies, according to some preachers.

Helping the unfortunate is "enabling slackers" unless it is accompanied by evangelism. (The Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship at one school I attended refused to support the Oxfam fast because Oxfam helps people without "preaching the Gospel.") America is Number One, and furriners are okay only if they "accept Christ"; otherwise, they're secularists who live debauched, empty lives (Europeans) or heathens who do unspeakable things and "walk in darkness."

In other words, the fundies play precisely to the typical American's prejudices.

Meanwhile, the mainstream churches talk about "the costs of discipleship."

It's no wonder the fundies are growing and the mainstream churches aren't.

[Dorian Gray]

21. My guess...

And somebody please correct me if you think I'm wrong...

The more conservative Jews (Hasidic, Lubuvitch, various other Orthodox sects) follow the laws of the Torah. But, they don't prosthelytize. They believe that they are the chosen people, and they often live in insulated communities where their every day interaction is with one another.

While the more "religious" Christians tend to want to share the word, as they believe it is their duty to do so. So, out they go into the big, bad world. They believe it is their duty to spread Christ's message.

[More Than A Feeling]

27. Jews haven't had power the way Christians have had.

Centuries of power has made certain groups of Christians (who see themselves as rightful heirs to that power) very sensitive to threats to their dominant position in society. They wish to preserve the status quo, and anything that seems to contradict their interpretation of faith is a threat to them if it gains widespread acceptance, regardless of its merits.

Jews, on the other hand, have been downtrodden for the majority of history. Perhaps because of this, they seem to have little interest in attacking other religious groups the way they were attacked. So they are more free to actually look at the social possibilities, and sincerely consider them, without the pressures of insecurity that power brings.

Just a thought, and I apologize for any ignorance I have displayed.

[IvotedforKodos]

32. What?

Did you just call the new testament liberal?

[Kire]

35. yes

SoD used the phrase: "the more liberal New Testament"

[Igel]

33. If you want some truly conservative forms of Xianity,

there have been Judaizing Xian sects from time to time. They exist today (I was in one). Others are less Judaizing.

The key to them all: rejecting Xian tradition. You start from scratch, taking the texts at face value. They all usually find the restrictions to be onerous, and find reasons to not observe all the various laws not demonstrably abolished by Christ's death: it's easy when there's peer pressure to not observe the various laws. The Worldwide Church of God followed the usual pattern.

Even some of the ultra-observant Jewish sects are also to some extent tradition-rejecting, in that they have recent founders.